Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[DannyGallivan]

Patrick Roy would never be caught dead on a public course like a peasant...

He wouldn't be allowed on most private courses. He'd hack up the green after a missed putt while blaming his caddy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Plus it's too early to have a drink

Hard disagree, sir.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Well, there's five skaters to every goalie, so it shouldn't really be too surprising. Plus it's too early to have a drink (referring to the thread guidelines in the very first post), but it's hard enough to rank goaltenders among skaters anyways.

Maybe there’s a ratio of five skaters to one goaltender because an individual goaltender has the responsibility of five skaters?

Sips tea.

But really, if hockey had two people protecting the net - a Left Goaltender and a Right Goaltender, I don’t see how the position itself sees twice as many people on a list. If anything, it severs the direct relationship that the individual goaltender has with the scoreboard.


Anyway, my new goal is to get @DannyGallivan specifically to feel comfortable with comparing goaltenders to skaters. To protect our livers.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The best way to detox is to retox...it's science.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Anyway, my new goal is to get @DannyGallivan specifically to feel comfortable with comparing goaltenders to skaters. To protect our livers.

Never happen. It's like comparing place kickers to linebackers. And yet, I do have 18 goalies among my top 120 (and three among my top 17). Besides, I look forward to my Crown Royal (although perhaps not at 8:30 in the morning).

 

[MXD]

Trigger warning.

Terry Sawchuck ended up making my Top-50.

Now, time to pour one.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Trigger warning.

Terry Sawchuck ended up making my Top-50.

Now, time to pour one.

Well, if we're including goalies he better have!

 

[quoipourquoi]

Terry Sawchuk: Four double-eagles and a hole-in-one in the first five holes. The next 13 holes, he’s worried if he’s good at golf.

Bill Durnan: Hurts himself on his first swing, so they kick him off the golf course. The country club runs out of members, so they bring him back on Hole #12, and everyone except him is surprised he’s a natural. With either hand.

Roberto Luongo and Glenn Hall golf with the wind in their faces during the rain.

 

[ted2019]

I have the two so close overall, I bounce between the two. I have a hard time committing to one over the other for very long. This time around I think I gave the edge based on longevity and playoffs

I have Roy 2 spots behind Hasek.

 

[ted2019]

No goaltenders in the top-10 then? Not saying there’s a mandate or anything, but two names to take a look at strongly in comparison to some of the #5-10 skaters would be Jacques Plante and Patrick Roy. Both careers had structure more resembling that of a skater, so it may make for easier comparison to the usual suspects like a Maurice Richard or a Jean Beliveau - without all of the same caveats necessary when comparing Dominik Hasek and Terry Sawchuk.


I’m trying to remember who first drew the parallel between Patrick Roy’s career and golf scorecard (Michael Farber of Sports Illustrated?), but if you think of the 18 seasons as 18 holes, he probably just has the one double-eagle in 1989 where everything went right from October to May/June, but he also birdies just about everything else because even if he struggles getting to the green (1986 and 2001), he’ll chip it in because of his playoffs. And just the one bogey in a par-3 lockout season.

Not a whole lot in terms of water hazards or sand traps (injuries), and you’d have to take more than just his appendix in a playoff round to keep him from finishing a hole. And he helped modernize the swing and the club.

I’d keep going but I’m terrible at golf so I’m running out of metaph- OH! I bet he wishes he could mulligan his eagle putt in 2002. Okay, now I’m done.

Scoreboard to scorecard, he might have shot the same as Maurice Richard, so hopefully they’re eligible at the same time.

Hasek and Roy are both top 13. Relax.

 

[Iceman]

9, 11, 15 are where my first 3 goalies are right now.

3 goaltenders ahead of Crosby and Eddie Shore... get triggered peeps.

 

[ted2019]

9, 11, 15 are where my first 3 goalies are right now.

3 goaltenders ahead of Crosby and Eddie Shore... get triggered peeps.

My 3rd goalie is 21st.

 

[The Macho King]

9, 11, 15 are where my first 3 goalies are right now.

3 goaltenders ahead of Crosby and Eddie Shore... get triggered peeps.

Mine are 8, 12, and 18. I also have one more ahead of Crosby. I'm also pretty happy with how my top 30 looks, so I don't expect any movement there.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Kind of a short period, but I might have used too fine-tipped of a marker on 1968-1979 at the beginning.

 

[The Macho King]

How do you define "era". Like does Orr count as an O6 or an Expansion era player? I assume it's "prime within this period", but just wondering.

 

[quoipourquoi]

How do you define "era". Like does Orr count as an O6 or an Expansion era player? I assume it's "prime within this period", but just wondering.

Basically. There’s a few (especially Islanders dynasty) where I probably put Expansion but could have just as easily said post-WHA.

Nothing I stuck to religiously, but I wanted to check my blind spots.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Terry Sawchuk: Four double-eagles and a hole-in-one in the first five holes. The next 13 holes, he’s worried if he’s good at golf.

Bill Durnan: Hurts himself on his first swing, so they kick him off the golf course. The country club runs out of members, so they bring him back on Hole #12, and everyone except him is surprised he’s a natural. With either hand.

Roberto Luongo and Glenn Hall golf with the wind in their faces during the rain.

Glenn Hall pretends to look for his ball in the trees after every second hole so he can throw up.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Mine are 8, 12, and 18. I also have one more ahead of Crosby. I'm also pretty happy with how my top 30 looks, so I don't expect any movement there.

15, 16, 17.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Goalies and skaters are lumped together in terms of the NHL Entry Draft. Fail to see the difference un the evaluation process, pre and post NHL career.

5 goalies between 11th and 19th, Roy is 5th.

 

[ted2019]

Goalies and skaters are lumped together in terms of the NHL Entry Draft. Fail to see the difference un the evaluation process, pre and post NHL career.

5 goalies between 11th and 19th, Roy is 5th.

Curious on how you have Roy ahead of Hasek? Roy had better players around him and didn't have to carry an entire team like Hasek did. Hasek has him beat in Vezina's, Harts , Pearson's. Roy has 2 Smythe's, so he has that for him. Roy has a big edge in cups and wins in the playoffs. Regular season is all Hasek.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Goalies:
10, 12, 17, 23, 26, 41, 43, 59, 62, 73, 81, 88, 101, 110, 115, 116.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hasek not as reliable in the playoffs. Unpredictable. Like myself, C1958 isn't a big believer in averaging stats and ratios like save pct. ...that is, if I may speak for him.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hasek not as reliable in the playoffs. Unpredictable. Like myself, C1958 isn't a big believer in averaging stats and ratios like save pct. ...that is, if I may speak for him.

All this.

9 seasons in Buffalo, substantial injuries in 5. Conceded the starting role for Buffalo’s playoff chances in 1992-93 (Fuhr) and 1996-97 (Shields) - the same would have occurred in 1995-96 after a projected 3-4 week injury in Game 79(ish) but Buffalo missed them (the consolation prize being a marginal save percentage title win while injured over an overworked Puppa who helped the Lightning lock up the final spot). Out for months in 1999-00.

Another month-long absence knocked the 1998-99 Vezina down to one of the smaller voting shares to still result in the trophy (same number of 1st place votes as Dafoe; less than Joseph). Another Vezina in 2000-01 with fewer than 1/3 of the 1st place votes, so those 5th and 6th Vezina Trophies are better bulletpoints 20 years later than they are representations of how voters felt, considering >70% chose someone else.

Erratic behavior in prematurely ending his seasons in 2003-04 and 2005-06 confirmed by teammates and management and team doctors giving an element of validation to some of the feelings from Buffalo teammates in 1997.

Reverse projections of what he would do in the 1980s runs counter to the development (particularly his glove) from working with Mitch Korn in 1992-93 during his injury. More circumstantial evidence lies in the lack of save percentage titles in non-best-on-best tournaments as well as the inability to secure a starting role in Chicago in 1990 or 1991, the latter during Belfour’s contract holdout.

No one can take away 1993-94, the 1995 lockout, or 1997-98 - three of the best seasons the position has ever seen. But everything else is a Forsberg-type per-game asterisk of reliability that largely escapes criticism 20 years later on hockey forums for reasons illustrated up thread by Kyle McMahon: there’s no 80/82 GP baseline for goaltending from which a reflective look can discern that something went wrong.

He’s Guy Lafleur. At their best, insane talent. Both just outside my top-20. Outside of a 5-year window, there’s not a lot of there there. If someone has either as #5, I wouldn’t blink; I just feel a lot differently.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Curious on how you have Roy ahead of Hasek? Roy had better players around him and didn't have to carry an entire team like Hasek did. Hasek has him beat in Vezina's, Harts , Pearson's. Roy has 2 Smythe's, so he has that for him. Roy has a big edge in cups and wins in the playoffs. Regular season is all Hasek.

Curious as to how you surmise from my post who is ahead or behind Roy?

MF and QPQ did provide accurate and compelling reasons I must say.

Both Hasek and Roy had massaged, selective starts where the idea was getting playoff ready. Similar to Carey Price today.

 

[ted2019]

Curious as to how you surmise from my post who is ahead or behind Roy?

MF and QPQ did provide accurate and compelling reasons I must say.

Both Hasek and Roy had massaged, selective starts where the idea was getting playoff ready. Similar to Carey Price today.

You said Roy was 5.