Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[Canadiens1958]

You said Roy was 5.

So how did this fact position Hasek behind Roy? After all there are 4 goalies ahead of Roy.

 

[ted2019]

So how did this fact position Hasek behind Roy? After all there are 4 goalies ahead of Roy.

Considering on how you have been championing anyone that has been a Hab since the start of this project, I'm 99.9% sure that is what you have done. That and saying that Hasek was a flake. He was just as much as a flake as Roy

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not sure what "flake" represents in this context...but Hasek was the one that was routinely doused by marginal talents...which isn't to say he had a powerhouse in front of him, but long after that dust has settled, it's easy to forget that there's blood on his hands in Buffalo too. Maybe not during the regular year, but in a series, where it mattered...you weren't really sure. His last goal against as a Sabre is a good example...you don't know when that one was going to go in. At least with Roy, only Cam Neely beat him from there haha...

As much as I don't like it, there's a little bit of a Hasek is Peyton Manning, Roy is Tom Brady thing going on...the only difference being that Manning was mechanically one of the best ever, whereas Hasek was a different animal.

I still rate Hasek highly, but as I've studied the game more and gain a greater understanding, his stock is one of the ones that dips...which, again, like Shore, doesn't mean that I think he's not a top 100 player...but just relative to the lofty status of popular opinion...I see some people have him at #5 overall...that's a rough way to go in my eyes...

I think he's in my top 4 goalies still...but I could easily entertain Hall, Plante, Brodeur and Roy ahead of him...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Selective, massaged starts. 1988-89 Roy's Hat Trick season, 1st AST, Jennings & Vezina, playing in only 48 RS games:

1988-89 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

However the Canadiens played four games in Boston. All were "0 Days of Rest" situations. First or second game, regardless, Roy played only 1 of the 4 opportunities.

Top 100 goalie, has to play the tough games.

Similar situations exist for Hasek.

So, simply discount the awards and honours.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Considering on how you have been championing anyone that has been a Hab since the start of this project, I'm 99.9% sure that is what you have done. That and saying that Hasek was a flake. He was just as much as a flake as Roy

Pushed, Nighbor, Hap Holmes, Kelly, Syd Howe,Kennedy, Armstrong, Pulford,Brodeur, the O6 and other goalies who did not run from tough starts.

Critical of Lafleur, Price.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

As much as I don't like it, there's a little bit of a Hasek is Peyton Manning, Roy is Tom Brady thing going on...the only difference being that Manning was mechanically one of the best ever, whereas Hasek was a different animal.

wilt and russell. statistical and physical unicorn who is kinda flaky vs the boldest cockiest leaderiest puke before games competitive only cares about winning dude there is.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dominik Hasek is Shawn Michaels. Flashy, athletic, but he’ll skip WrestleMania in 1997 with a suspect injury. Patrick Roy is Bret “The Hitman” Hart. Technically sound, a bridge between styles, never misses a show, but somewhat formulaic.

...I, um, don’t really follow other real sports, so that’s the best I got.

 

[Staniowski]

All this.

9 seasons in Buffalo, substantial injuries in 5. Conceded the starting role for Buffalo’s playoff chances in 1992-93 (Fuhr) and 1996-97 (Shields) - the same would have occurred in 1995-96 after a projected 3-4 week injury in Game 79(ish) but Buffalo missed them (the consolation prize being a marginal save percentage title win while injured over an overworked Puppa who helped the Lightning lock up the final spot). Out for months in 1999-00.

Another month-long absence knocked the 1998-99 Vezina down to one of the smaller voting shares to still result in the trophy (same number of 1st place votes as Dafoe; less than Joseph). Another Vezina in 2000-01 with fewer than 1/3 of the 1st place votes, so those 5th and 6th Vezina Trophies are better bulletpoints 20 years later than they are representations of how voters felt, considering >70% chose someone else.

Erratic behavior in prematurely ending his seasons in 2003-04 and 2005-06 confirmed by teammates and management and team doctors giving an element of validation to some of the feelings from Buffalo teammates in 1997.

Reverse projections of what he would do in the 1980s runs counter to the development (particularly his glove) from working with Mitch Korn in 1992-93 during his injury. More circumstantial evidence lies in the lack of save percentage titles in non-best-on-best tournaments as well as the inability to secure a starting role in Chicago in 1990 or 1991, the latter during Belfour’s contract holdout.

No one can take away 1993-94, the 1995 lockout, or 1997-98 - three of the best seasons the position has ever seen. But everything else is a Forsberg-type per-game asterisk of reliability that largely escapes criticism 20 years later on hockey forums for reasons illustrated up thread by Kyle McMahon: there’s no 80/82 GP baseline for goaltending from which a reflective look can discern that something went wrong.

He’s Guy Lafleur. At their best, insane talent. Both just outside my top-20. Outside of a 5-year window, there’s not a lot of there there. If someone has either as #5, I wouldn’t blink; I just feel a lot differently.

Re: Hasek's Pre-NHL Career

For those who aren't aware, Dominik Hasek was probably the biggest goaltending prospect in the history of hockey. He was extremely good at a very young age.

He started playing in the top Czech league in his 15-year-old season (he was the youngest player in the history of the league) - in '80-'81 - and played in that league for 10 seasons before going to North America. He was named top goalie as a 16-year-old underager at the EJC, and the following year was named top goalie as a 17-year-old underager at the U20 WJC. That year he was chosen in the NHL draft during his 1st year of eligibility, which was quite rare at the time for players from Eastern Europe, more evidence of how highly regarded he was. He went on to play for the Czechs in the '84 Canada Cup as a teenager.

He played 5 seasons in the top Czech league during his 20s (age 20 to 25). He was named top goaltender of the league in all 5 of these seasons, and was named MVP of the league in 3 of these seasons. He was also named top goalie at the World Championships in 3 of these seasons, even though the Czechs weren't very strong during this period.

He was probably the best goaltender in the world in the second half of the '80s.

And he was already probably the best Czech hockey player of all-time before coming to North America in 1990.

As with Peter Stastny, Hasek had many of his best years in Czechoslovakia, before coming to the NHL. (Stastny was also a top player in the world pre-NHL)

Some people obviously dislike Hasek.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Some quotes from Dominik Hasek’s goaltending coach in Buffalo:


“He was so smart he knew exactly what was going to happen next, but he was too early,” Korn said. “So he showed his hand like a bad poker player, and that gave players a chance to adjust to Dom, and so he just didn’t have enough patience to make greatness of his ability to process what was going on.”

“I believe Dominik Hasek’s one of the few guys that had all thousand pieces,” he said. “I can tell you when I met Dom, almost all of the thousand pieces were spread out all over the table, and they weren’t put together yet.”

So they worked on an array of goaltending skills – skating, handling the puck and even catching it. “Literally, Dom had to learn how to close his glove and catch pucks,” Korn said. “He didn’t really close his glove to catch pucks.”


A player can be both a great prospect at a young age and better than Arturs Irbe in non-best-on-best tournaments and also not have fully developed to the point of being the best goaltender that they will be. No one comes out of the box 100% assembled. Roy was fortunate that he already had a Francois Allaire at 19-years-old for the Calder Cup victory.

If Hasek has a Mitch Korn earlier than 27-years-old, maybe we’re not talking about things he did at 15/16/17 in leagues and tournaments against players that probably won’t make this list as if it’s the equivalent of winning the Stanley Cup or going 20-0 at home in a season. Maybe instead of stealing a best-on-best tournament at 33-years-old, he does it in 1984, 1987, or 1991. But Hasek didn’t because he wasn’t the best goaltender in the 2nd half of the 1980s - or even the first half of the 1990s. And it doesn’t take disliking a player to acknowledge these things. I dislike Ed Belfour, but I’ll give him all the credit in the world when it’s deserved. Look at Hasek in the 1991 Canada Cup and in the 1998 Olympics. Tell me he’s the same goaltender.

 

[Staniowski]

Some quotes from Dominik Hasek’s goaltending coach in Buffalo:


“He was so smart he knew exactly what was going to happen next, but he was too early,” Korn said. “So he showed his hand like a bad poker player, and that gave players a chance to adjust to Dom, and so he just didn’t have enough patience to make greatness of his ability to process what was going on.”

“I believe Dominik Hasek’s one of the few guys that had all thousand pieces,” he said. “I can tell you when I met Dom, almost all of the thousand pieces were spread out all over the table, and they weren’t put together yet.”

So they worked on an array of goaltending skills – skating, handling the puck and even catching it. “Literally, Dom had to learn how to close his glove and catch pucks,” Korn said. “He didn’t really close his glove to catch pucks.”


A player can be both a great prospect at a young age and better than Arturs Irbe in non-best-on-best tournaments and also not have fully developed to the point of being the best goaltender that they will be. No one comes out of the box 100% assembled. Roy was fortunate that he already had a Francois Allaire at 19-years-old for the Calder Cup victory.

If Hasek has a Mitch Korn earlier than 27-years-old, maybe we’re not talking about things he did at 15/16/17 in leagues and tournaments against players that probably won’t make this list as if it’s the equivalent of winning the Stanley Cup or going 20-0 at home in a season. Maybe instead of stealing a best-on-best tournament at 33-years-old, he does it in 1984, 1987, or 1991. But Hasek didn’t because he wasn’t the best goaltender in the 2nd half of the 1980s - or even the first half of the 1990s. And it doesn’t take disliking a player to acknowledge these things. I dislike Ed Belfour, but I’ll give him all the credit in the world when it’s deserved. Look at Hasek in the 1991 Canada Cup and in the 1998 Olympics. Tell me he’s the same goaltender.

He was largely the same goalie in '91 (at the age of 26) as he was in '98 (at the age of 33). The major difference was the '98 team was much better overall than the '91 team. The Czechs have had some very strong periods - in particular, much of the '70s generation, as well as the Jagr, Reichel, etc. generation of the latter '90s. The generation that Hasek grew up in was not nearly as strong. The '98 gold medal was not [stolen] by Hasek. The primary reason the Czechs won was because of their overall team defense, especially from their strong group of forwards. Hasek played well, but he didn't single-handedly steal anything. His 'numbers' in '98 are a lot better overwhelmingly because the team in front of him was a lot better.

Hasek was almost certainly the best goalie in the world before coming to North America.

Your focus on Mitch Korn is kind of bizarre. Nobody would suggest that players don't improve, but Hasek was already one of the best goalies of all-time before he put on a Sabres uniform.

 

[Staniowski]

And I have to say, I don't especially enjoy defending Hasek, because I really don't like the guy.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Same style, same highlight reel saves, but an absence of refinement that was exploited at the best-on-best level by the same North American shooters that Hasek claimed were better than Soviet Union shooters (a quote acknowledged by John Davidson during the 6 GA game vs. Canada where Gretzky blasted a slapshot from the wing over what may have been an unopened glove).

Check the Otto goal at the start of the 2nd period (but stay for the frantic saves throughout that undoubtedly left a positive impression). You ever see 1998 Hasek starting off square to the shooter and then chase a poke check to the point that he’s standing upright with one foot behind the goal line and the other at the bottom of the circle when the obvious centering pass gets tapped in?

He’s a 7-year pro, but goaltenders who do that get leashes tied to their waists during practice.

You think bringing in quotes from the goaltending coach that Hasek thanked in his HHOF speech is bizarre? That’s like getting weirded out by someone mentioning Scotty Bowman in a thread about 1970s Montreal; it’s his COACH. One of the more relevant opinions there is on any player. If coaches didn’t matter, no one would pay for them to sit in a video room with an injured player for two months. And in 20 years, it’ll be Braden Holtby thanking Mitch Korn in his speech too.

 

[VMBM]

Re: Hasek's Pre-NHL Career

He played 5 seasons in the top Czech league during his 20s (age 20 to 25). He was named top goaltender of the league in all 5 of these seasons, and was named MVP of the league in 3 of these seasons. He was also named top goalie at the World Championships in 3 of these seasons, even though the Czechs weren't very strong during this period.

I can only count two (1987 and 1989)... although he was voted to the Media All-Star team in 1990 (IIHF Directorate Best Goalie: Arturs Irbe).

And he was already probably the best Czech hockey player of all-time before coming to North America in 1990.

That's a big statement. Maybe if he had stayed a couple of years more?

It's possible that CSSR's lack of big international success during Hasek's time is affecting my judgement too much.

As with Peter Stastny, Hasek had many of his best years in Czechoslovakia, before coming to the NHL. (Stastny was also a top player in the world pre-NHL)

Hasek's pre-NHL achievements easily beat Stastny's.

 

[BM67]

Some early years data for Terry Sawchuk
1952 PO GP 8 MIN 480 W 8 L 0 SO 4 GA 5 GAA 0.63 SOG 224 SV% .978
52-53 GP 63 MIN 3780 W 32 L 15 T 16 SO 9 GA 120 GAA 1.90 SOG 1679 SV% .929 (league avg .916)
53 PO GP 6 MIN 372 W 2 L 4 SO 1 GA 21 GAA 3.39 SOG 160 SV% .869 (league avg .912)
53-54 GP 67 MIN 4004 W 35 L 19 T 13 SO 12 GA 129 GAA 1.93 SOG 1927 SV% .933 (league avg .919)
54 PO GP 12 MIN 751 W 8 L 4 SO 2 GA 20 GAA 1.60 SOG 334 SV% .940 (league avg .927)

 

[DN28]

All this.

.
.
.

Reverse projections of what he would do in the 1980s runs counter to the development (particularly his glove) from working with Mitch Korn in 1992-93 during his injury. More circumstantial evidence lies in the lack of save percentage titles in non-best-on-best tournaments as well as the inability to secure a starting role in Chicago in 1990 or 1991, the latter during Belfour’s contract holdout.

No one can take away 1993-94, the 1995 lockout, or 1997-98 - three of the best seasons the position has ever seen. But everything else is a Forsberg-type per-game asterisk of reliability that largely escapes criticism 20 years later on hockey forums for reasons illustrated up thread by Kyle McMahon: there’s no 80/82 GP baseline for goaltending from which a reflective look can discern that something went wrong.

He’s Guy Lafleur. At their best, insane talent. Both just outside my top-20. Outside of a 5-year window, there’s not a lot of there there. If someone has either as #5, I wouldn’t blink; I just feel a lot differently.

Same style, same highlight reel saves, but an absence of refinement that was exploited at the best-on-best level by the same North American shooters that Hasek claimed were better than Soviet Union shooters (a quote acknowledged by John Davidson during the 6 GA game vs. Canada where Gretzky blasted a slapshot from the wing over what may have been an unopened glove).

Check the Otto goal at the start of the 2nd period (but stay for the frantic saves throughout that undoubtedly left a positive impression). You ever see 1998 Hasek starting off square to the shooter and then chase a poke check to the point that he’s standing upright with one foot behind the goal line and the other at the bottom of the circle when the obvious centering pass gets tapped in?
.
.
.

Just a couple of points:

- Hasek has a save percentage title from WHC 1987.

- Lack of additional save percentage titles from other major international tournaments should in no way be held against him. Disparity in strength of 1980s USSR team and Czechoslovakia, Sweden, non-best WHC Canada etc. was much much larger than in the 1970s. Mylnikov and Konovalenko were posting higher SV% than Tretiak, yet no one in the world tries to argue that those two provided better goaltending to Soviets.

- Czechs, nor Hasek did not care or prepare too much on the Canada Cup 1991 for various reasons (non-hockey related too). That is, of course, no excuse for relatively weak perfomance of Hasek or Czechoslovak team as a whole. I raised this just to point out that what constitutes "best-on-best" tournament for North Americans does not always translates to other nations - particularly for Soviets and Czechs in this case of ´91 Canada Cup.

- If I read you correctly, you seem to give no value for Hasek´s pre-NHL accomplishments. Do you think that the European goaltending 1986-1990 was so weak that the best one of them would not be able to even crack into, say, top 10 of either Vezina or AST voting during this period?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Just a couple of points:

- Hasek has a save percentage title from WHC 1987.

- Lack of additional save percentage titles from other major international tournaments should in no way be held against him. Disparity in strength of 1980s USSR team and Czechoslovakia, Sweden, non-best WHC Canada etc. was much much larger than in the 1970s. Mylnikov and Konovalenko were posting higher SV% than Tretiak, yet no one in the world tries to argue that those two provided better goaltending to Soviets.

- Czechs, nor Hasek did not care or prepare too much on the Canada Cup 1991 for various reasons (non-hockey related too). That is, of course, no excuse for relatively weak perfomance of Hasek or Czechoslovak team as a whole. I raised this just to point out that what constitutes "best-on-best" tournament for North Americans does not always translates to other nations - particularly for Soviets and Czechs in this case of ´91 Canada Cup.

- If I read you correctly, you seem to give no value for Hasek´s pre-NHL accomplishments. Do you think that the European goaltending 1986-1990 was so weak that the best one of them would not be able to even crack into, say, top 10 of either Vezina or AST voting during this period?

SV% is very far from a defining statistic.

Point is having the tools to properly evaluate all European players in domestic and regional European competition.

Specifically domestic league and regional event schedules and results.

Key comparables pertaining to domestic top 10 scoring and goaltending.

Recently released NHL archival data is very telling in this regard.

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not sure what "flake" represents in this context...but Hasek was the one that was routinely doused by marginal talents...which isn't to say he had a powerhouse in front of him, but long after that dust has settled, it's easy to forget that there's blood on his hands in Buffalo too. Maybe not during the regular year, but in a series, where it mattered...you weren't really sure. His last goal against as a Sabre is a good example...you don't know when that one was going to go in. At least with Roy, only Cam Neely beat him from there haha...

As much as I don't like it, there's a little bit of a Hasek is Peyton Manning, Roy is Tom Brady thing going on...the only difference being that Manning was mechanically one of the best ever, whereas Hasek was a different animal.

I still rate Hasek highly, but as I've studied the game more and gain a greater understanding, his stock is one of the ones that dips...which, again, like Shore, doesn't mean that I think he's not a top 100 player...but just relative to the lofty status of popular opinion...I see some people have him at #5 overall...that's a rough way to go in my eyes...

I think he's in my top 4 goalies still...but I could easily entertain Hall, Plante, Brodeur and Roy ahead of him...

I have him dipped. From #4 to #5. Simply the best goalkeeper ever.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hasek has a save percentage title from WHC 1987.

To my understanding, Evgeny Belosheikin was marginally ahead. If I’m mistaken on this, I don’t know that it changes my point about how he wasn’t exactly sweeping the category to the extent that he would later in the NHL and in Nagano on teams that were hardly favorites either against much stronger competition for individual accolades.

Czechs, nor Hasek did not care or prepare too much on the Canada Cup 1991 for various reasons (non-hockey related too). That is, of course, no excuse for relatively weak perfomance of Hasek or Czechoslovak team as a whole. I raised this just to point out that what constitutes "best-on-best" tournament for North Americans does not always translates to other nations - particularly for Soviets and Czechs in this case of ´91 Canada Cup.

He’s a month out from the season where his best competition for a starting job (Ed Belfour) is a contract holdout, playing in a tournament in which his head coach Mike Keenan is highly invested. If there’s any semblance of apathy on his part, it’s not a good look.

If I read you correctly, you seem to give no value for Hasek´s pre-NHL accomplishments. Do you think that the European goaltending 1986-1990 was so weak that the best one of them would not be able to even crack into, say, top 10 of either Vezina or AST voting during this period?

Of course I give value to it. It’s essentially what separates him from Ken Dryden (who for my money, had a better 8/9-year run because while I’d take Hasek’s regular seasons by a little, Dryden was exceptional in the playoffs).

Huge difference between giving zero value and asserting that someone was literally the best goaltender of the late-1980s.

There’s a whole spectrum there that even could have included a Vezina nomination or win - but it also could have included more opportunities to show what Hasek “did not care” about, which if we’re adding the 1991 Canada Cup to the list, is becoming a bigger set of bulletpoints than any of the other 120 players we’re naming.

 

[VanIslander]

Nighbor, Seibert, Clapper, Boucher, Geoffrion, Hall, Makarov...

If any of those ain't in your top-100 then the list ought to be thrown out!

 

[Canadiens1958]

To my understanding, Evgeny Belosheikin was marginally ahead. If I’m mistaken on this, I don’t know that it changes my point about how he wasn’t exactly sweeping the category to the extent that he would later in the NHL and in Nagano on teams that were hardly favorites either against much stronger competition for individual accolades.



He’s a month out from the season where his best competition for a starting job (Ed Belfour) is a contract holdout, playing in a tournament in which his head coach Mike Keenan is highly invested. If there’s any semblance of apathy on his part, it’s not a good look.




Of course I give value to it. It’s essentially what separates him from Ken Dryden (who for my money, had a better 8/9-year run because while I’d take Hasek’s regular seasons by a little, Dryden was exceptional in the playoffs).

Huge difference between giving zero value and asserting that someone was literally the best goaltender of the late-1980s.

There’s a whole spectrum there that even could have included a Vezina nomination or win - but it also could have included more opportunities to show what Hasek “did not care” about, which if we’re adding the 1991 Canada Cup to the list, is becoming a bigger set of bulletpoints than any of the other 120 players we’re naming.

The Dryden vs Hasek RS comparison is interesting. Not finished but Dryden rarely missed facing the elite teams during the RS.

Hasek? Well, 1997-98 when he played 72 games, Buffalo played NJ four times. Hasek played the two home games, Shields the two away games.

1997-98 Buffalo Sabres Schedule and Results | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[ted2019]

Dominik Hasek is Shawn Michaels. Flashy, athletic, but he’ll skip WrestleMania in 1997 with a suspect injury. Patrick Roy is Bret “The Hitman” Hart. Technically sound, a bridge between styles, never misses a show, but somewhat formulaic.

...I, um, don’t really follow other real sports, so that’s the best I got.

Bret Hart sucks. I'm more of a Johnny Valentine & Harley Race guy myself.

 

[ted2019]

SV% is very far from a defining statistic.

Point is having the tools to properly evaluate all European players in domestic and regional European competition.

Specifically domestic league and regional event schedules and results.

Key comparables pertaining to domestic top 10 scoring and goaltending.

Recently released NHL archival data is very telling in this regard.

Can you put a link to this archival data?

 

[ted2019]

Nighbor, Seibert, Clapper, Boucher, Geoffrion, Hall, Makarov...

If any of those ain't in your top-100 then the list ought to be thrown out!

Which Boucher?

 

[DN28]

SV% is very far from a defining statistic.

Point is having the tools to properly evaluate all European players in domestic and regional European competition.

Specifically domestic league and regional event schedules and results.

Key comparables pertaining to domestic top 10 scoring and goaltending.

Recently released NHL archival data is very telling in this regard.

Yes, of course, SV% is just a piece of the puzzle. Awards voting, contemporary quotes etc. needs to be considered as well. I was just responding to the claim that Hasek did not have "non-best-on-best" SV% title.

To my understanding, Evgeny Belosheikin was marginally ahead. If I’m mistaken on this, I don’t know that it changes my point about how he wasn’t exactly sweeping the category to the extent that he would later in the NHL and in Nagano on teams that were hardly favorites either against much stronger competition for individual accolades.

WHC 1987
Dominik Hašek: 9 games / 19 goals allowed / 228 saves / 2.19 GAA / 0.9231
Evgeny Belosheikin: 10 games / 15 goals allowed / 179 saves / 1.50 GAA / 0.9227

(Source 1, Source 2)

Pre-NHL Hasek had, on average, better SV% than other goalies with the exception of the Soviet ones. It was widely recognized that Soviet teams in 80s were so much ahead of the rest that their goalies were posting the best tournament´ SV%. Yet, except for Tretiak (and Myshkin in CC 1984, Irbe in 1990), Soviet goalies did not play any role in the All-star voting. They were not even a 2nd all-star teamers despite having highest SV% going on for them.

He’s a month out from the season where his best competition for a starting job (Ed Belfour) is a contract holdout, playing in a tournament in which his head coach Mike Keenan is highly invested. If there’s any semblance of apathy on his part, it’s not a good look.

I´ve already said there is no excuse for weak performance. However, 1991 - time where Czechoslovakia was in a political turmoil, country was splitting into two parts, transforming into democratic society. Situation in hockey - players were flying away in masses, not necesarilly to the NHL but also to Finland, Germany, Sweden etc. Pre-1990 hockey developing programs were interrupted or stopped. Team itself was one of the weakest CSSR team of all-time and it was well known at the time. A lot of strong talents (future longtime NHLers) + older players from previous weak late 80s generation that were supposed to carry the team, yet some of them were basically career czech extraleaguers. Anyway, my point was that CSSR team as a whole did not focuse or prepare very much on this "best-on-best" tournament. I don´t know how Hasek personally prepared for the tournament, or how much he seriously he viewed the tournament, but his team did not. Hence, Hasek´s pre-1990 performances in other championships are more illustrating of his level of play.

Of course I give value to it. It’s essentially what separates him from Ken Dryden (who for my money, had a better 8/9-year run because while I’d take Hasek’s regular seasons by a little, Dryden was exceptional in the playoffs).

Huge difference between giving zero value and asserting that someone was literally the best goaltender of the late-1980s.

There’s a whole spectrum there that even could have included a Vezina nomination or win - but it also could have included more opportunities to show what Hasek “did not care” about, which if we’re adding the 1991 Canada Cup to the list, is becoming a bigger set of bulletpoints than any of the other 120 players we’re naming.

OK, I think we´re in agreement then. The way I see it, one extreme is to reject everything Hasek did before 1990, the other extreme is to call him best goalie in the world year in year out before he arrived to Chicago. So that leaves us with plenty of room to view and interpret Hasek´s pre-NHL accomplishments. As far as my view on it is, I just can´t see Hasek as not at least one of the top 10 best goalies in the world between 1986-1990. He was considered right there with green unit members as one of the top players in Europe - at least in a couple of seasons. That´s something to keep in mind.

I´ll come back tomorrow with summary of Hasek pre-NHL career - listing his domestic and international SV% and various award votings each season.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Can you put a link to this archival data?

Available since appearance in the sticky section.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/historical-resources-and-source-material.1487943/

Here for all NHL RS and Playoff results:

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/historical-resources-and-source-material.1487943/

For detailed, specific. Left click:

1.) Stats in top bar.Yielding:
NHL.com - Stats

2.) Players or teams in resulting top bar. Yielding:
NHL.com - Stats

3.) Set the desired search request fields. Left Run Report or Refine Results.