Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Citizens on Patrol)

[VanIslander]

2 years ago, Crosby in the Top-30 would've been a really hard sell.
Now he's a very legit Top-15 candidate at the very least.

I was proud in the 2009 top-70 HOH project that Crosby in his 5th season, after three 100 point seasons, a Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross and a Stanley Cup championship, leading the playoffs in goals.. WAS NOT on the list nor on the list of next ten to be considered.

This is not a projection list. It honors history. If a great player retired tomorrow due to injury (or even had a stunted career due to it hereafter), then the what if brigade would come out, no sooner please.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Even 4-5 years totals seems silly. Crosby/Malkin/Ovechking are only now starting to make sense to rank - as wherever they end up ranked today vs when they retire likely doesn't fluctuate by more than 10 ranks or so if that, and they're in their 30s. They've already had the majority of the important parts of their career (barring some big surprises).

Even in 2 years you might have argued McDavid....top 50? 40? But if he was pacing for a top 5-10 by end of career, it still would seem kind of a moot point.

Honestly in 2 years he would definitely make the top 100. He wouldn't reach his final position until he's as old as Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin but he'd make the list for sure.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I was proud in the 2009 top-70 HOH project that Crosby in his 5th season, after three 100 point seasons, a Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross and a Stanley Cup championship, leading the playoffs in goals.. WAS NOT on the list nor on the list of next ten to be considered.

This is not a projection list. It honors history. If a great player retired tomorrow due to injury (or even had a stunted career due to it hereafter), then the what if brigade would come out, no sooner please.

I think it would be a disservice to list a player of McDavid's stature so far behind what he will likely end up. I'd rather wait 10 years and put him at 5th than wait two years and put him at 100.

For current players like Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin (and a few others), their body of work is enough for me to add them to this list (those three in particular are deservedly very high, even if they potentially could be higher in five years). For McDavid, I'm willing to wait.

 

[The Macho King]

I think it would be a disservice to list a player of McDavid's stature so far behind what he will likely end up. I'd rather wait 10 years and put him at 5th than wait two years and put him at 100.

For current players like Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin (and a few others), their body of work is enough for me to add them to this list (those three in particular are deservedly very high, even if they potentially could be higher in five years). For McDavid, I'm willing to wait.

This is why I left him off. Say I put him in at 95 or something like that now (which is probably defensible - that has him pretty close to MSL on my list). That just doesn't look right to me. I'd much rather wait until we have a solid body to work with where we have a good idea of where he will fit in historically against other greats rather than the incredibly incomplete picture we have now.

 

[ted2019]

cooincidentally, I have Bernie at 120 and Price didn't make my list.

Neither made my list. Bernie wasn't even an afterthought for me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Neither made my list. Bernie wasn't even an afterthought for me.

His peak numbers, and "the eye test" (as a child, the '74 season was the first I followed as a "real" hockey fan) was enough to make sure Bernie was honoured. He was just soooooo dominant back then. More so than any other goalie I had ever watched, with the possible exception of Hasek.

 

[ted2019]

His peak numbers, and "the eye test" (as a child, the '74 season was the first I followed as a "real" hockey fan) was enough to make sure Bernie was honoured. He was just soooooo dominant back then. More so than any other goalie I had ever watched, with the possible exception of Hasek.

I'm a Flyers fan and still don't think that Bernie should be included. A stretch of 141 regular season games and 32 playoff games out of 679 total doesn't do that much for me.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm a Flyers fan and still don't think that Bernie should be included. A stretch of 141 regular season games and 32 playoff games out of 679 total doesn't do that much for me.

Bernie Parent, the Charlie Gardiner of his day.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm a Flyers fan and still don't think that Bernie should be included. A stretch of 141 regular season games and 32 playoff games out of 679 total doesn't do that much for me.

For me, his somewhat brief (but exceptionally dominant) peak gives him a "clear conscience" last place spot on my list.

 

[seventieslord]

Let this marinate for a few hours.

Proclamations from the mount.

No mistake was made, 124-69 =55 is correct. Grade school arithmetic. That you do not agree with the resulting applications and results does not make the calculation wrong.

That you cannot grasp the impact of the resulting gap, on TOI in a three line two pairing rotation is evident.

Specifically, the Esposito/Cashman/Hodge line has a range of 10. Hodge also at +69,Cashman at+59.

The component forwards and subs of the other two lines were on the ice for app 180 ESGs. Your 50% estimate, without any support, produces the following unlikely scenarios.

Orr played upwards of 40 minutes a game.

Esposito's line played upwards of 35 minutes a games. Less for the two wingers

Orr hardly played with the component forwards and subs at ES.

Given the TOI and supported by Orr, the two component forward lines would have set scoring records.

Keep doubling down.

...yep, pretty much what I expected.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, I finally managed to find footage of Nighbor, and somebody who appears to be Sprague Cleghorn. I can see how they make the top 50.

.....wow. what are you doing here?

 

[seventieslord]

I don't have Price ranked for the same reason I don't have Theodore ranked.

I'm not saying Price should be ranked, but this is in no way a logical statement.

 

[DannyGallivan]

.....wow. what are you doing here?

Just cracking wise. Loved the clip, as I explained in an earlier post. Like seeing hockey represented in very early pop culture, and that it seems to support (even in exaggeration), the frontier/savage element of the game. That slash is consistent with the Cleghorn brothers.

 

[blogofmike]

.....wow. what are you doing here?

Clearly he found the real-life footage of the event pnep's avatar was based on.

 

[seventieslord]

Oh, I agree that Nighbor benefited from the playoff format, but he's certainly not the only player. And also everyone played under those rules on the same sheet of ice. Nighbor's postseason numbers are quite ridiculous and that doesn't even touch on the fact he's still at a disadvantage because of the lack of assist totals. And then we need to examine how his defensive impact tilted the ice often in favor of Ottawa.

The very fact that a 31 year old Nighbor was the leagues first Hart winner (and Byng btw) is telling. He was highly respected for his peerless play. I really like to highlight Frank Selke's description of Nighbor. This isn't some fan or sportswriter. Selke had no direct connection to Nighbor as far as i know. Didn't coach him. Yet this is what he said:

Frank Selke in 11-10-1962 Montreal Gazette said:

With all due respect to the many wonderful players who have come and gone since 1900, there are few who could be rated above Frank Nighbor. Someone once called him the "peerless centre," and I can think of no label which would have been more apt. We always felt he could have played a complete game of hockey in formal attire without even putting a wrinkle in his suit. He was a leading scorer, an expert passer and a playmaker; and no rival forward could come close to him in defensive skill. Along with Jack Walker he developed the poke-check to such an extent that his contemporaries were forced to revamp completely their style of play in order to cope with him.
....
It is hard to say whether Morenz' style of play was more effective than Nighbor's, but there was this difference--Nighbor was so letter-perfect that a spectator could fall asleep watching him play, knowing just what was going to happen.


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He was a neutral zone trap in one player.

 

[Michael Farkas]

DG was just joking guys...the guy grew up watching the 70's Habs and his user name is Danny Gallivan...I don't think he's going to turncoat on history after he just spent every waking hour of the last three months putting this list together*...


* - Sometimes I exaggerate for effect. He only worked on his list for two months...

 

[DannyGallivan]

DG was just joking guys...the guy grew up watching the 70's Habs and his user name is Danny Gallivan...I don't think he's going to turncoat on history after he just spent every waking hour of the last three months putting this list together*...


* - Sometimes I exaggerate for effect. He only worked on his list for two months...

I think I under-estimated the zealot-like fervor of some posters. But they can always post a clip from Slap Shot to pay me back.

 

[VanIslander]

For me, his somewhat brief (but exceptionally dominant) peak gives him a "clear conscience" last place spot on my list.

So, HHOFer Frank McGee is on your list, eh?

He ain't on mine because his career is too short, even relative to the era.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I found the clip/post funny, didn't take it as a slam on early era players at all.

 

[seventieslord]

I think I under-estimated the zealot-like fervor of some posters. But they can always post a clip from Slap Shot to pay me back.

Call it whatever you want, but disdain for history and the players of history is not tolerated here.

 

[Captain Bowie]

So, HHOFer Frank McGee is on your list, eh?

He ain't on mine because his career is too short, even relative to the era.

#93 for me.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Call it whatever you want, but disdain for history and the players of history is not tolerated here.

"disdain"? See my list before you use such hyperbole. And yes, comments like that do make you come off as a zealot. That's fine. Although I live and breath hockey, I save my indignant righteousness for matters of God, family and country.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Call it whatever you want, but disdain for history and the players of history is not tolerated here.

I think you are being too much of a curmudgeon if that's how you took the post, unless there is a long history of disrespect from Danny that I'm not privy to, but that doesn't appear to be the case from what I've seen.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can we at least wait until Round 2, when the discussions actually matter, before getting mad at each other?

 

[MXD]

... If anything, Danny Gallivan brings lots of camp since the beginning.