Too many New York teams?

[AdmiralsFan24]

The other flip side to all this who plays who is if say your in Milwaukee as a fan do you really want to see the Binghamton Sens or Utica Comets? Would'nt an extra couple games against say the Wolves bring more attendance or care? I know an extra game in Bing against say Syracuse would be a bigger draw here than say the Rampage came to Bing. More emphasis on division games and conference games that have playoff implications are easier to market and most people understand importance of interconference/division games. I personally prefer more division rival games where true hate is built up. Can't hate a team you see once in 15 years.

I'd rather see a variety. I can see Chicago, Rockford, Iowa or Grand Rapids pretty much every month if I want to.

 

[wildcat48]

It has nothing to do with what we like is correct and the NHL and AHL owners continue to accept declining/stagnant attendance numbers and a complete acceptance of irrelevance. As for teams crying poor (not poverty as this is a difference) the teams in the north and east always do that whenever the schedule is put out. We can't afford to face the western teams. Boo Hoo. Then why did you allow them into the AHL in the first place? They could have just increased the number of teams in the northeast without bringing in the teams west of rochester.

It's a two-way street.... When the schedule matrix is put together an eastern team could attempt to play out west, but if the western team doesn't want to play in the east it's not their fault.

Portland & Manchester attempted to work on a deal together several years ago to play Chicago and a couple of the surrounding teams, but the Western teams said no. That's not on eastern teams. Portland, Manchester or any other teams in within my area have never complained about being poor as a reason why they don't travel.

Portland doesn't travel because the NHL team wants them to have as many practice days at home as possible and have players in their own beds as many night as possible. That's a product of the AHL. I don't see it changing regardless of where the teams are located or whether they are traveling by bus, plane or horse and buggy.

 

[210]

It's a two-way street.... When the schedule matrix is put together an eastern team could attempt to play out west, but if the western team doesn't want to play in the east it's not their fault.

Portland & Manchester attempted to work on a deal together several years ago to play Chicago and a couple of the surrounding teams, but the Western teams said no. That's not on eastern teams. Portland, Manchester or any other teams in within my area have never complained about being poor as a reason why they don't travel.

Portland doesn't travel because the NHL team wants them to have as many practice days at home as possible and have players in their own beds as many night as possible. That's a product of the AHL. I don't see it changing regardless of where the teams are located or whether they are traveling by bus, plane or horse and buggy.

When Mike Lehr was running the show here in Worcester he came right out and said the only place he didn't put on his list was Cleveland, but short of there he said the WorSharks would play anywhere. But like you say, there were no western teams wanting to come back this way.

 

[Crunchrulz]

The War Memorial in Syracuse holds 6100 on a good day and is older than most of the folks (including myself) posting here. Fans and the organization have been asking for a new venue as there is only so many times you can polish a piece of dropping. The County got burned by building a new baseball stadium that is poorly attended in the mid 90s, so they are not interested in a new arena. Unless you consider the proposed 44000 seat arean that will host SU sports and other activities. Guess the Carrier Dome isnt good enough for the folks on the SU Hill. Binghamton and Utica usually sell out small arenas, so they can be given a pass aswell. Albany had had MAJOR attendance issues for some time. Not sure who the hockey folks in Albany know, but that is the first team I would look to take from NYS and place somewhere else. As for the Amerks, they have a ton of history as well as location being the farm team of the Sabres. The Arena has a lot of seats, and the fan backing is starting to come back after a couple of off years in the standings.
The big thing to remember is central location. The NHL teams try and cut down travel costs, so having a number of teams mostly in the NE is both cost and time savings for them.

 

[go comets]

The War Memorial in Syracuse holds 6100 on a good day and is older than most of the folks (including myself) posting here. Fans and the organization have been asking for a new venue as there is only so many times you can polish a piece of dropping. The County got burned by building a new baseball stadium that is poorly attended in the mid 90s, so they are not interested in a new arena. Unless you consider the proposed 44000 seat arean that will host SU sports and other activities. Guess the Carrier Dome isnt good enough for the folks on the SU Hill. Binghamton and Utica usually sell out small arenas, so they can be given a pass aswell. Albany had had MAJOR attendance issues for some time. Not sure who the hockey folks in Albany know, but that is the first team I would look to take from NYS and place somewhere else. As for the Amerks, they have a ton of history as well as location being the farm team of the Sabres. The Arena has a lot of seats, and the fan backing is starting to come back after a couple of off years in the standings.
The big thing to remember is central location. The NHL teams try and cut down travel costs, so having a number of teams mostly in the NE is both cost and time savings for them.

I agree With your assessment. NY is just a ahl hotbed, well except Albany. I was told ( don't know if its true) that the devils play rent free in Albany....

 

[CJNewman]

The problem with Albany is two fold. First their affiliated with the Devils the undisputed worst team to be affiliated with. They refuse to spend any money on staff or marketing. It's a rarity to even hear one of their games on the radio and have zero advertising anywhere around the city. I don't think half the people who live in the Capital District even know the Devils exist. On top of that the team constantly stinks. Albany is a front running town just look at how they drew for the playoffs. Secondly most of the season ticket holders graduated high school the same year Mrs. Sullivan 13th child did. Their hobbies other than attending Devil games is complaining how much more things cost now than they used to, complain about that darn rock n roll music, and yell at kids to get off their lawn. The rumor is that they start their games at 5:00 instead of 7:00 is because most of their fans need to be back at the home by 9:00 for lights out.

 

[RFA]

Albany probably has just about the lowest costs associated with running the team as well, especially travel.

Funny thing is that if they added 500 or 1000 to the announced number no one would be saying there's a problem in Albany. There are certainly places that do that. I'm guessing that they keep a low announced number as an ace up the sleeve if/when they do decide to leave at some point. They give very few free tickets out also, so the number, even though low, is fairly accurate and indicative of revenue generated.

The AHL attendance numbers are such a joke overall that they should stop announcing them.

Not quite true about no advertising either, there are ads on the news, there's a billboard on 787 and a bunch of neons in bars.

There are just a bunch of similarly priced entertainment options in the area.

Doesn't the league subsidize the travel to the west anyway? So you get locally owned teams trying to bid for the trips so they don't lose as much money?

I did hear that NJ paid $50,000 to charter a flight to St. John's.

I also heard that Hershey lost money the last two years because they didn't go far enough in the playoffs.

 

[adsfan]

The other flip side to all this who plays who is if say your in Milwaukee as a fan do you really want to see the Binghamton Sens or Utica Comets? Would'nt an extra couple games against say the Wolves bring more attendance or care? I know an extra game in Bing against say Syracuse would be a bigger draw here than say the Rampage came to Bing. More emphasis on division games and conference games that have playoff implications are easier to market and most people understand importance of interconference/division games. I personally prefer more division rival games where true hate is built up. Can't hate a team you see once in 15 years.

Utica did come to Milwaukee this past season. As always, it is nice to see a "different" team. Chicago coming to Milwaukee 5 times a season is enough for me. The Wolves fans don't come up here by the busload like they used to do in from 1998 to 2002. Both teams are happy with Friday games in Milwaukee and Saturday in Chicago.

 

[Nightsquad]

The War Memorial in Syracuse holds 6100 on a good day and is older than most of the folks (including myself) posting here. Fans and the organization have been asking for a new venue as there is only so many times you can polish a piece of dropping. The County got burned by building a new baseball stadium that is poorly attended in the mid 90s, so they are not interested in a new arena. Unless you consider the proposed 44000 seat arean that will host SU sports and other activities. Guess the Carrier Dome isnt good enough for the folks on the SU Hill. Binghamton and Utica usually sell out small arenas, so they can be given a pass aswell. Albany had had MAJOR attendance issues for some time. Not sure who the hockey folks in Albany know, but that is the first team I would look to take from NYS and place somewhere else. As for the Amerks, they have a ton of history as well as location being the farm team of the Sabres. The Arena has a lot of seats, and the fan backing is starting to come back after a couple of off years in the standings.
The big thing to remember is central location. The NHL teams try and cut down travel costs, so having a number of teams mostly in the NE is both cost and time savings for them.

Pretty arrogant statement on your part against Albany, while I am not a huge fan of liberal New York State I kinda know through my business dealings the sports entertainment markets of Upstate NY and with that Albany has many more options then other Upstate cities. Syracuse has major college basketball yes but Albany-Schenectady-Troy metro region which much smaller then Syracuse and Rochester has two AHL clubs (Albany & Adirondack) then you have nearby Union College (National NCAA D1 champions) and RPI hockey programs. You have MAJOR concerts rolling through Albany, shows which bypass Rochester, Syracuse, and even Buffalo. Albany or the Tri-Cities as they are known is close enough to NYC so they are a defacto suburb of NYC and not to mention 3 hours tops to Boston Mass. Talk about a tiny metro area with a big city complex which hurts attendance in Albany at the minor league level. Last but not least, they are affiliated with the Devils! The Devils and Albany seem to be a good fit as they are not wanted by nobody else, both the Devils and Albany seem to make it work. The Rangers if they ever landed in Albany just might suprise everyone. There are many amongst hockey circles who believe the Rangers and Albany would be a perfect storm of sorts, many are waiting for that to happen and I dont think the Albany market would disappoint. If the Union College NCAA victory can fuel the interests of hockey fans once again in greater Albany like it did for the Devils at the seasons end (attendance surged at seasons end, and they finished off 2014 with the top AHL playoff average attendance) there is very much a market that shouldnt go away. Nobody, not even Syracuse or Rochester have had to endure 15 seasons which only saw their team in the playoffs less the 5 of those years. Albany has had a tough road the likes of no other teams like Syracuse, Rochester, or even Hershey would tolerate, not to mention next season they will have to compete for hockey fans with hockey's NCAA National Champions from Union College just 20 minutes down the road....Best of luck to Albany I say.

 

[Nightsquad]

The problem with Albany is two fold. First their affiliated with the Devils the undisputed worst team to be affiliated with. They refuse to spend any money on staff or marketing. It's a rarity to even hear one of their games on the radio and have zero advertising anywhere around the city. I don't think half the people who live in the Capital District even know the Devils exist. On top of that the team constantly stinks. Albany is a front running town just look at how they drew for the playoffs. Secondly most of the season ticket holders graduated high school the same year Mrs. Sullivan 13th child did. Their hobbies other than attending Devil games is complaining how much more things cost now than they used to, complain about that darn rock n roll music, and yell at kids to get off their lawn. The rumor is that they start their games at 5:00 instead of 7:00 is because most of their fans need to be back at the home by 9:00 for lights out.

The 5PM start time was a trial run by the Devils organization. The experiment was two fold. First they thought it would help draw in more families due to the fact when the Devils returned to the Albany area they opted to dump the River Rats name and logo, an identity already well established which identified with many of the kids who grew up in the 1990s and into the early 2000s, the Devils lost that connection with the children and family sector. Young professional adult segment of the market were just not going to strongly support such an anemic on ice product, in short the Devils and their playoffless hockey for many years was not going to sell. Hockey fans in Albany can also take in NCAA DI hockey at either RPI or Union College who ended up being the National Champions. Speaking of costs, Union College Skating Dutchmen (National Champs) tickets $10 and free parking with cheap food, Albany Devils tickets going for $20+, parking $6 minimum for the local garages, and everyone says Albany's food is not only awful but overpriced. I heard a burger and beer in Albany will set you back almost $15, thats too much for food for people in an area known as Smallbany NY lol. They cant afford those prices, there is no high paying employment there except government jobs.

Second: The Devils front office strongly could not understand why 8K to 12K fans were not supporting the Albany-Adirondack rivalry like they did through much of the 1990s. They believed by starting the games earlier that visiting fans from Adirondack can get down to Albany early and get home by a reasonable time during the mid winter months during shorter days and possible not so great travel weather. It had nothing to do with people in the Tri-Cities having to be home by 9PM, in fact bars in the region can do last calls at 4PM with patrons not having to leave the bar till 4:30AM, so much for the early to bed theory, Albany is a party town lol, just ask the throngs of students in the region. When the rumors of the NY Rangers AHL team was headed to Albany, rumors began swirling they were going to offer direct shuttle service to the game from the SUNY Albany campus since most of college's student body is from NYC and Long Island lol.

It wasnt until the second half of the season up in Albany that the Devils actually had a solid Front Office in place. Much of the Devils front office I have been told jumped ship during the Devils sale, a sale which impacted Albany unfavorably early on becuause of the depleted front office.

 

[CJNewman]

This is definitely a crossroads season for Albany, the Devils, and the future of the AHL in Albany. I know for a fact this is the last year of their lease agreement between the two. I know Albany gave the Devils a very favorable lease deal after the River Rats left to get a team here, but a lot has changed since then. The number of cities interested in bringing the AHL there has decreased, The focus for sports fans has seemed to be more college orientated, and the Devils have made no real impression on the market because they focused on being an Albany team instead of a Capital Region team that would draw more fans considering most people who would go to games don't actually live in the city. I could see numerous situations in which this could work out. First both sides could work out a new agreement, but it would probably be a more Albany friendly one. Second someone like Trenton or Atlantic City offers the Devils a sweetheart deal they can't refuse and move there. Third Albany gives the Devils the boot and uses the open dates for more college sports. Finally Albany gets the Rangers to come there because the Wolfpacks lease in Hartford ends this year also and it seems very likely their leaving Hartford. These are my opinions of what could happen, but to be honest I have no idea which is the most likely if any.

 

[wildcat48]

Albany probably has just about the lowest costs associated with running the team as well, especially travel.

Funny thing is that if they added 500 or 1000 to the announced number no one would be saying there's a problem in Albany. There are certainly places that do that. I'm guessing that they keep a low announced number as an ace up the sleeve if/when they do decide to leave at some point. They give very few free tickets out also, so the number, even though low, is fairly accurate and indicative of revenue generated.

The AHL attendance numbers are such a joke overall that they should stop announcing them.

Not quite true about no advertising either, there are ads on the news, there's a billboard on 787 and a bunch of neons in bars.

There are just a bunch of similarly priced entertainment options in the area.

Doesn't the league subsidize the travel to the west anyway? So you get locally owned teams trying to bid for the trips so they don't lose as much money?

I did hear that NJ paid $50,000 to charter a flight to St. John's.

I also heard that Hershey lost money the last two years because they didn't go far enough in the playoffs.

St. John's pays the first $23,000 for a team traveling to Newfoundland for games.... Portland also chartered a flight from Portland to St. John's on a couple of occasions. Most of the time they would bused to Boston, fly to Toronto & changed planes before going to St. John's. That worked ok until this season when Portland was stuck in St. John's for nine days and had to postpone two or three games due to the snowstorms.

 

[Nightsquad]

This is definitely a crossroads season for Albany, the Devils, and the future of the AHL in Albany. I know for a fact this is the last year of their lease agreement between the two. I know Albany gave the Devils a very favorable lease deal after the River Rats left to get a team here, but a lot has changed since then. The number of cities interested in bringing the AHL there has decreased, The focus for sports fans has seemed to be more college orientated, and the Devils have made no real impression on the market because they focused on being an Albany team instead of a Capital Region team that would draw more fans considering most people who would go to games don't actually live in the city. I could see numerous situations in which this could work out. First both sides could work out a new agreement, but it would probably be a more Albany friendly one. Second someone like Trenton or Atlantic City offers the Devils a sweetheart deal they can't refuse and move there. Third Albany gives the Devils the boot and uses the open dates for more college sports. Finally Albany gets the Rangers to come there because the Wolfpacks lease in Hartford ends this year also and it seems very likely their leaving Hartford. These are my opinions of what could happen, but to be honest I have no idea which is the most likely if any.

Albany gives one of, if not thee most favorable lease agreements. They can do this because Albany's arena is all but paid for, they make money with big name concerts and the naming rights to the local newspaper, and my understanding is they are in one of the unique positions to do this unlike smaller markets yet don't face competition from the bigger AHL markets who share their arenas with stupid indoor NLL lacrosse or NBA basketball. All Albany has to do is schedule around concerts, and some Siena Basketball dates.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

First of all there needs to be three or four teams from out east willing to come out west and vice versa. Just because worcester wants to travel means they need to get three more.

I know Chicago and Milwaukee and GR are willing to travel. I heard Rockford is as well but not if it is only to play one team then come home.

 

[210]

First of all there needs to be three or four teams from out east willing to come out west and vice versa. Just because worcester wants to travel means they need to get three more.

I know Chicago and Milwaukee and GR are willing to travel. I heard Rockford is as well but not if it is only to play one team then come home.

The time Lehr spoke of there was Manchester, Worcester, and Hartford all willing to go west (may have been same year as Portland wanting to go, but I don't know that for certain) but there was no west teams interested.

 

[go comets]

Utica did come to Milwaukee this past season. As always, it is nice to see a "different" team. Chicago coming to Milwaukee 5 times a season is enough for me. The Wolves fans don't come up here by the busload like they used to do in from 1998 to 2002. Both teams are happy with Friday games in Milwaukee and Saturday in Chicago.

as a utica season ticket holder, we got to see alot of different teams this first season. we had rochester,lake erie and abbotsford 8 times in our building, and i was happy to see games with other teams. i think 8 is too many. 6 would suit me fine for division opponents.we didnot see any new england teams this past season.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

as a utica season ticket holder, we got to see alot of different teams this first season. we had rochester,lake erie and abbotsford 8 times in our building, and i was happy to see games with other teams. i think 8 is too many. 6 would suit me fine for division opponents.we didnot see any new england teams this past season.

because the schedule dictated and once Utica was assigned to the West as Peoria's replacement is essentially why the Comets had a predominately West schedule, go.

as a first year team, you don't have the option to decide whom you get to select, unless that club personally indicates they want your franchise on the schedule.

the Flames will go through what Utica did last season despite being in an Eastern market.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

The time Lehr spoke of there was Manchester, Worcester, and Hartford all willing to go west (may have been same year as Portland wanting to go, but I don't know that for certain) but there was no west teams interested.

And I get the story that there were no eastern teams willing to come out to play the Chicago circuit.

 

[RFA]

Well it looks like next year Utica and probably Adirondack will be making that swing so there's three destinations around here.

But from a hockey ops perspective, there's little, if any, reason to travel more than necessary. Albany tried it in 06-07 as the Rats, and the games here were very poorly attended. They'd really thought a big crowd would turn out for the Grand Rapids game, a Saturday in January against the former Adirondack Red Wings, very disappointing turnout. They played a few "home" games in Glens Falls then next two years (on top of three that playoff year) and that ended up being much more successful.

 

[Rumblick]

And I get the story that there were no eastern teams willing to come out to play the Chicago circuit.

And that's why this is a wasted argument, Tommy. You and I have had this same debate over the years, and nothing changes. I've spoken to the Hershey GM on several occasions and he's been more than willing to travel, but he says he can't get the Western teams to reciprocate. The people you talk to say it's the Eastern teams that won't travel. Meanwhile, Lord David says "Don't ask me; I'm only the commissioner".

My solution - when they hold the scheduling meetings, televise it. Make it a pay per view with all proceeds going to charity, and make the team reps explain on camera why they won't travel.

 

[Nightsquad]

Well it looks like next year Utica and probably Adirondack will be making that swing so there's three destinations around here.

But from a hockey ops perspective, there's little, if any, reason to travel more than necessary. Albany tried it in 06-07 as the Rats, and the games here were very poorly attended. They'd really thought a big crowd would turn out for the Grand Rapids game, a Saturday in January against the former Adirondack Red Wings, very disappointing turnout. They played a few "home" games in Glens Falls then next two years (on top of three that playoff year) and that ended up being much more successful.

The Capital District market, Albany specifically shouldnt even be tried to figure out. Albany is extremely unique and there are SO MANY variables which make it difficult to figure out. There is alot of quality hockey within 20 miunutes of each other AHL Devils, NCAA Dutchmen, and NCAA RPI Engineers and many of these three teams are always at home the same nights or all on the road for whatever reason lol. Thats not even considering Adirondack 50 miles up I-87 or even giving DIII Skidmore college hockey a thought. Throw in a love for high school sports in that region then DI Siena Saints and University of Albany Great Danes basketball programs all within 10 minutes from downtown Albany and the sports entertainment dollar options are plenty. Nobody would have guessed Albany would have drawn the best average attendance for the 2014 playoffs, even the AHL league brass were in Albany for the two games and pleasantly suprised. They heavily advertised those games, they got fair treatment from Albany media which was all over hockey after Union College's National Title (locals called it the Union Effect!), and opened the upper level and offered upper level seats relatively cheap at $8 depending on where you sat on top but it translated into 7,000 plus per game for the two playoff games. Albany needs an AHL need that is better then average to be successful, or perhaps if the Rangers landed in Albany would be huge.

 

[210]

My solution - when they hold the scheduling meetings, televise it. Make it a pay per view with all proceeds going to charity, and make the team reps explain on camera why they won't travel.

I'm all for that, as long as it's not AHLlive doing it.

I just want to clarify my comments...Mike Lehr didn't say those things just to me (although he had previously), his comments about the schedule and traveling were made to a large gathering of fans and in front of newspaper/TV/radio media.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

because the schedule dictated and once Utica was assigned to the West as Peoria's replacement is essentially why the Comets had a predominately West schedule, go.

as a first year team, you don't have the option to decide whom you get to select, unless that club personally indicates they want your franchise on the schedule.

the Flames will go through what Utica did last season despite being in an Eastern market.

We played Abby 12 times (6/6)

DIVISION

Hamilton and Toronto 6 EACH 3/3
Lake Erie 8 (4/4)
Rochester 10 5/5

we also played Texas, Milwaukee, Iowa, SA, OKC, Chicago, Rockford from the West. Did not play Grand Rapids or Charlotte.

From East we played WBS, Bingo, ADK, Albany and Syracuse 4 2/2. Bridgeport 2 1/1

Hoping to play NYS teams way more and Hershey and Lehigh Valley. Also, all the New England teams....Springfield is only 3 hrs and Worcester3.5. Why travel if you don't have to. Love to have Hershey in town a couple times as well

 

[wildcat48]

And that's why this is a wasted argument, Tommy. You and I have had this same debate over the years, and nothing changes. I've spoken to the Hershey GM on several occasions and he's been more than willing to travel, but he says he can't get the Western teams to reciprocate. The people you talk to say it's the Eastern teams that won't travel. Meanwhile, Lord David says "Don't ask me; I'm only the commissioner".

My solution - when they hold the scheduling meetings, televise it. Make it a pay per view with all proceeds going to charity, and make the team reps explain on camera why they won't travel.

Ding Ding.... We have a winner.

 

[adsfan]

First of all there needs to be three or four teams from out east willing to come out west and vice versa. Just because Worcester wants to travel means they need to get three more.

I know Chicago and Milwaukee and GR are willing to travel. I heard Rockford is as well but not if it is only to play one team then come home.

Tommy, you and 210 could both be correct!

The problem that I see is GR. GR is about 175 miles from Chicago, but across Lake Michigan from Milwaukee (130 miles, or 270 miles around the lake). If it was CHI, MKE, RCK (or Peoria in previous seasons) it would work on the Midwest end. Those 3 cities are a 90 minute drive from each other.

The Eastern teams could fly out of Boston or Hartford/Springfield and into Chicago.