Too many New York teams?

[AdmiralsFan24]

Oh by the way how is the Milwaukee Admirals search going for a new arena there because you know when the Bucks get theirs there going to tear down the Bradley Center and there's no way the taxpayers are going to fund hockey equipment in the new arena. Maybe they should of took a few less flights and a few more bus trips and used the money they saved on that to build their own facility or renovate an existing one.

Really?

"I hope that we would be part of a new facility if a new facility does come to fruition," Turer said. "I have not had that discussion with the powers that be that say, absolutely, there will be ice in it. Do I believe there will be? People have hinted at it, that yes, it's very likely, yes. But once you add ice, that's an expensive addition. It doesn't just happen. You don't just throw some water out and it freezes because it's a little bit colder in the building. There's a lot of expense that goes into having a facility that has ice.

"So, until I have that assurance that's going to happen I don't know 100 percent. If I had to bet, I would say, yes, I think we'll be a part of it."

http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/admiralsmarquettenewarena.html

And if it doesn't, I'm sure they could work something out with U.S. Cellular Arena.

 

[RFA]

So the real question is why aren't teams moving back to the real IHL cities, Muskegeon, Flint, Ft. Wayne, Indy, Saginaw, Peoria then maybe Toledo and a couple others like Cincy? They're set up more like NY/PA/MA/CT cities that seem to be the way to go recently. That's how the IHL lasted for decades, then after becoming too greedy only lasted a few more years in in the larger, more spread out cities.

Seems like a movement to Michigan would be more of a realistic threat than "out west".

And questions about the bus crash would be sent to Charlotte, the franchise sold about a year after the bus crash and moved south.

The reason it crashed what the first bus broke down and the second driver was driving unsafely. I'd rather be in a bus with a wild driver than plane with wild pilot. I'd rather not be in either. There are both.....

Looks like Milwalkee should be ok, always cheer for tham because they're the only team to play in Albany as both a member of the IHL and AHL.

 

[CJNewman]

The fact is this I don't think the Admirals could get into the new Bucks arena if they bought a ticket. I got the sense that they have no intentions of including them as they haven't in any of the discussions yet and the Bucks always seem to make it difficult on the Admirals when it comes to scheduling as it is. Also I don't see the arena tying up 38 nights plus playoffs for a team that will on fill it about 1/3rd. With that saying I went to the U.S. Cellular arena page and that seem like a perfect fit for them. It said 6,689 for ice shows so I'm assuming that would be the same for hockey which would create a better atmosphere to watch a game than the cavernous Bradley Center. The question is how much would it cost if anything to make it AHL ready and would both parties be interested. If the U.S. Cellular arena didn't work they could always be lucky #7 in New York lol.

 

[adsfan]

The fact is this I don't think the Admirals could get into the new Bucks arena if they bought a ticket. I got the sense that they have no intentions of including them as they haven't in any of the discussions yet and the Bucks always seem to make it difficult on the Admirals when it comes to scheduling as it is. Also I don't see the arena tying up 38 nights plus playoffs for a team that will on fill it about 1/3rd. With that saying I went to the U.S. Cellular arena page and that seem like a perfect fit for them. It said 6,689 for ice shows so I'm assuming that would be the same for hockey which would create a better atmosphere to watch a game than the cavernous Bradley Center. The question is how much would it cost if anything to make it AHL ready and would both parties be interested. If the U.S. Cellular arena didn't work they could always be lucky #7 in New York lol.

The only reason that the Bucks had a place to play since 1988 is the Admirals former owner giving $71M for the current arena. Herb Kohl knows this. Shutting out the Admirals and Marquette basketball would be a PR nightmare that the new Bucks owners might not recover from. There are a lot of Marquette alumni around and a lot of them are attorneys! Mark Attanasio is a minority owner of the Admirals and a popular figure in Milwaukee. If the two new owners of the Bucks want some of his money to be tossed in, the Admirals will be included. Marquette will also be included. One of their recruiting tools is playing in an NBA arena.

 

[adsfan]

So the real question is why aren't teams moving back to the real IHL cities, Muskegeon, Flint, Ft. Wayne, Indy, Saginaw, Peoria then maybe Toledo and a couple others like Cincy? They're set up more like NY/PA/MA/CT cities that seem to be the way to go recently. That's how the IHL lasted for decades, then after becoming too greedy only lasted a few more years in in the larger, more spread out cities.

Seems like a movement to Michigan would be more of a realistic threat than "out west".

And questions about the bus crash would be sent to Charlotte, the franchise sold about a year after the bus crash and moved south.

The reason it crashed what the first bus broke down and the second driver was driving unsafely. I'd rather be in a bus with a wild driver than plane with wild pilot. I'd rather not be in either. There are both.....

Looks like Milwalkee should be ok, always cheer for tham because they're the only team to play in Albany as both a member of the IHL and AHL.

The manufacturing in those cities has decreased since 1990. Flint has one of the highest jobless rates in the US. Indy and Peoria have gone through a few hockey teams at different levels.

Toledo and Cincinnati have successful ECHL teams. Indy has a USHL team. Some of those cities were in the Colonial League, then the United League, then the IHL, then moving to the Central Hockey League.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Worchester is within an hour of both Providence and Springfield. Springfield is also within an hour of Hartford. Albany and Glens Falls are less than an hour. Syracuse and Utica. Binghamton and Wilkes-Barre Scranton. That's 6 less than an hour. I'd also rather be in a bus crash than a plane crash. Oh by the way how is the Milwaukee Admirals search going for a new arena there because you know when the Bucks get theirs there going to tear down the Bradley Center and there's no way the taxpayers are going to fund hockey equipment in the new arena. Maybe they should of took a few less flights and a few more bus trips and used the money they saved on that to build their own facility or renovate an existing one.

Milwaukee is not searching for a new arena. Where do you get your information about the Bucks getting a new arena? How fo you think the Bucks got the arena in the first place? Bradley Center. Look up who used to own the Admirals.

I saif those 4 teams (W, H, S, P) were the ONLY close teams in the northeast. And in what world are you getting your drive times? Albany Hartford is almost 2 hours, Albany Worcester, not worchester, is over 2 hours. Try this link to get your driving times: www.mapquest.com

You keep posting completely unsubstantiated information.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

So the real question is why aren't teams moving back to the real IHL cities, Muskegeon, Flint, Ft. Wayne, Indy, Saginaw, Peoria then maybe Toledo and a couple others like Cincy? They're set up more like NY/PA/MA/CT cities that seem to be the way to go recently. That's how the IHL lasted for decades, then after becoming too greedy only lasted a few more years in in the larger, more spread out cities.

Seems like a movement to Michigan would be more of a realistic threat than "out west".

And questions about the bus crash would be sent to Charlotte, the franchise sold about a year after the bus crash and moved south.

The reason it crashed what the first bus broke down and the second driver was driving unsafely. I'd rather be in a bus with a wild driver than plane with wild pilot. I'd rather not be in either. There are both.....

Looks like Milwalkee should be ok, always cheer for tham because they're the only team to play in Albany as both a member of the IHL and AHL.

There is much more stringent requirements for being a pilot than a bus driver and there are a lot fewer other planes in the sky than cars on the roads. More people are killed in road accidents than plane crashes.

There was a team in Peoria and the only reason there isn't now is because the Blues were sold and the new owners did not want to own their AHL team. Then the Canucks tried to force out Calgary and move to Abbotsford and when that failed tried to blackmail Peoria into giving them a deal similar to what Calgary got from Abbotsford.

As mentioned, the economic conditions in those cities makes a financially feasible AHL franchise unlikely. Cincy would be a great place for an AHL team but the Cyclones have been doing very well since coming back after the Ducks left.

 

[CJNewman]

Milwaukee is not searching for a new arena. Where do you get your information about the Bucks getting a new arena? How fo you think the Bucks got the arena in the first place? Bradley Center. Look up who used to own the Admirals.

I saif those 4 teams (W, H, S, P) were the ONLY close teams in the northeast. And in what world are you getting your drive times? Albany Hartford is almost 2 hours, Albany Worcester, not worchester, is over 2 hours. Try this link to get your driving times: www.mapquest.com

You keep posting completely unsubstantiated information.

My info is unsubstantiated your one to talk. First of all the ones I listed were an hour or less apart as I stated learn to read. Secondly about the Bucks getting a new arena is coming from the sale of the team. Under the conditions of the sale the city has two years to get shovels in the ground or they have the option of buying them back and most likely moving them to Seattle. For the fact of the Admirals looking for a new building look at the situations in Philadelphia with the Phantoms and in Houston with the Aeros this seems very similar. Finally with all the uncertainty there I thought it might be better to play in the a building where it would average 85% full instead of one that is 35% full but that's me. Truthfully I have no vested interest either way on what happens personally I'm just trying to have an open discussion you want to think I'm the bad guy trying to start fights go ahead but in two years when their forced out don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

My info is unsubstantiated your one to talk. First of all the ones I listed were an hour or less apart as I stated learn to read. Secondly about the Bucks getting a new arena is coming from the sale of the team. Under the conditions of the sale the city has two years to get shovels in the ground or they have the option of buying them back and most likely moving them to Seattle. For the fact of the Admirals looking for a new building look at the situations in Philadelphia with the Phantoms and in Houston with the Aeros this seems very similar. Finally with all the uncertainty there I thought it might be better to play in the a building where it would average 85% full instead of one that is 35% full but that's me. Truthfully I have no vested interest either way on what happens personally I'm just trying to have an open discussion you want to think I'm the bad guy trying to start fights go ahead but in two years when their forced out don't say I didn't warn you.

Where are you getting East teams busing 10 hours except for Norforlk. Truthfully if I was to guess I would say the average bus ride for most teams is about 2 hours. Also if you think teams in the West don't bus as much as the East your crazy most teams fly to one city and bus to others around there and stay in hotels every night instead of going home. Here's a fact last year Abbotsford spent 90 nights in a hotel last year.

The average bus ride for most teams is not 2 hours. That mean that most teams would have to be within an hour of their opponent and they are not. THe bus rides may be 3 or 4 hours one way but you need to double that.

And I already mentioned most of those times you threw out that I was wrong. Go back and reread my posts.

As for the Milwaukee situation, you REALLY need to check your stuff. Look up Petit. Read the posts form the Milwaukee people that posted here. THe BUcks may or may not get a new arena. Fan support for them has been abysmal. Public support for a new arena is tracking about the same if they want to use public funds. See what happens when a place builds an arena thinking the sports team is the saviour (Florida Panthers, NJ Devils, Phoenix Coyotes to name a few). If they do not put an ice plant in the new arena is extremely limits the events they can host, No disney on ice events, no figure skating, etc. Even the arenas in Brooklyn and Phoenix and Houston that were built for basketball have ice plants.

and addressing this post of yours:

.......I love the fact their is so many teams in New York and the Northeast because I live so close to so many franchises It gives me an opportunity to see so many teams. I have 2 that are within a half an hour of me, 4 within 2 hours, 13 within 4 hours, and 16 within 5 hours.

All the AHL teams are within 5 hours (one way) of me. All of them are a short flight.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

I'm just trying to have an open discussion you want to think I'm the bad guy trying to start fights go ahead but in two years when their forced out don't say I didn't warn you.

You pretty clearly are trying to start **** with this and you haven't paid any attention to the article I posted (with quotes from the owner and everything!) You're just a really bad troll.

 

[CJNewman]

You pretty clearly are trying to start **** with this and you haven't paid any attention to the article I posted (with quotes from the owner and everything!) You're just a really bad troll.

Really yo mad bro. Butt hurt. I was just suggesting that a move to a smaller arena would make more sense long term, but I forgot mention I own and lease commercial properties for a living so I do know a thing or two about a thing or two. I'm so sincerely sorry that I insulted the great city of Milwaukee by suggesting that their MINOR league team operate as such and look for more cost efficent alternatives. Really who was I to think that if/when the Bucks get a new taxpayer funded arena they wouldn't want to tie up 38+ nights a year on a money pit than keep those dates open and god forbid book speciality events that would make money. So sincerely excuse me for insulting such royalty as the major league city of Milwaukee with my peasent opinion I hope you except this apology with all the sincerity I'm writing it with.

 

[RFA]

It doesn't matter how many teams are within an hour. They look at how many teams are under 2:30 or 3 hours (one way), then they can bus in and out in one day.

New York has Gov. Clinton to thank for building the Erie Canal back in the day for it's success in today's AHL. Just about all the cities are along the Erie (and Glens Falls the Champlain) Canal. I don't rememebr Binghamton's history, obviously a railroad town but I'm not sure if that was the first major transportation through there.

 

[mmazz22]

Binghamton's history was IBM's birthplace and a ton of other manufacturer jobs. Sadly that is not the case anymore.
Anyways Bingo works in the AHL for two simple reasons, it is dirt cheap to run a team here and travel is simple. The rent they pay is 2 grand a game, what is it in larger cities? The average atty is about 4 grand of paying customers, there are no free tickets here. The team gets all ad revnue in the building and a share of concessions. There is zero to do here in Bingo in the winter to compete with the hockey team. The double A Mets come in the late spring but they are not a factor. High school football competes in the early fall a bit.
The team plays 4 road games to Roch 3 hours away, 5 road games in Syracuse 1 hour away, 4 road games to WBS 1 hour away, 4 in Hershey 3-4 hours away, 4 in Albany 2.5 hours away, 2 in Utica 2.5 hours away, 4 in Glens falls 3 hours away, 1 in Bport which is 4 hours away. 4 in Norfolk which is the big trip and they play two games while there down there each trip. 2 games in St John but I think St John helps pay the expense. So as you can see the travel is cheap too which helps keep small market teams like Bing and other NY state teams a float. There has to be something finacial viable in say Bing if the city has had an AHL team for 33 years. I cannot speak of the other NY state teams situation but it is proably safe to assume most of them are in similar situations and like Bing are king of their buildings there by getting desirable dates as well. I believe we had 5 week night games this year, with 1 being NY eve, day after Christmas, day before Tgiving, and the other 2 being random weds nights.

 

[adsfan]

The fact is this I don't think the Admirals could get into the new Bucks arena if they bought a ticket. I got the sense that they have no intentions of including them as they haven't in any of the discussions yet and the Bucks always seem to make it difficult on the Admirals when it comes to scheduling as it is. Also I don't see the arena tying up 38 nights plus playoffs for a team that will on fill it about 1/3rd. With that saying I went to the U.S. Cellular arena page and that seem like a perfect fit for them. It said 6,689 for ice shows so I'm assuming that would be the same for hockey which would create a better atmosphere to watch a game than the cavernous Bradley Center. The question is how much would it cost if anything to make it AHL ready and would both parties be interested. If the U.S. Cellular arena didn't work they could always be lucky #7 in New York lol.

The Cell should seat about 9500 for hockey. They curtain off one end for ice shows.

The BC had 3 concerts last year, the lowest total since 1989. There are plenty of open dates in Milwaukee for an arena that is open for about 300 days. The BC is usually closed on Mondays, but there have been some exceptions.

 

[adsfan]

Binghamton's history was IBM's birthplace and a ton of other manufacturer jobs. Sadly that is not the case anymore.
Anyways Bingo works in the AHL for two simple reasons, it is dirt cheap to run a team here and travel is simple. The rent they pay is 2 grand a game, what is it in larger cities? The average atty is about 4 grand of paying customers, there are no free tickets here. The team gets all ad revnue in the building and a share of concessions. There is zero to do here in Bingo in the winter to compete with the hockey team. The double A Mets come in the late spring but they are not a factor. High school football competes in the early fall a bit.
The team plays 4 road games to Roch 3 hours away, 5 road games in Syracuse 1 hour away, 4 road games to WBS 1 hour away, 4 in Hershey 3-4 hours away, 4 in Albany 2.5 hours away, 2 in Utica 2.5 hours away, 4 in Glens falls 3 hours away, 1 in Bport which is 4 hours away. 4 in Norfolk which is the big trip and they play two games while there down there each trip. 2 games in St John but I think St John helps pay the expense. So as you can see the travel is cheap too which helps keep small market teams like Bing and other NY state teams a float. There has to be something finacial viable in say Bing if the city has had an AHL team for 33 years. I cannot speak of the other NY state teams situation but it is proably safe to assume most of them are in similar situations and like Bing are king of their buildings there by getting desirable dates as well. I believe we had 5 week night games this year, with 1 being NY eve, day after Christmas, day before Tgiving, and the other 2 being random weds nights.

Thanks for the info on Bingo. When I stopped there a number of years ago on my way to CT, there was a brew pub in the downtown area.

The Admirals get the BC for free on Mondays (rare) through Fridays. On the weekends they have to pay rent. I forget, but it is about $10K. The Ads get no parking revenue (unless it is from STH packages) and about 38% of concessions and zero of souvenirs sales in the BC. They do get money from souvenirs sold in their offices 2 blocks away. They do get ad revenue and sponsorships for everything.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

It doesn't matter how many teams are within an hour. They look at how many teams are under 2:30 or 3 hours (one way), then they can bus in and out in one day.

New York has Gov. Clinton to thank for building the Erie Canal back in the day for it's success in today's AHL. Just about all the cities are along the Erie (and Glens Falls the Champlain) Canal. I don't rememebr Binghamton's history, obviously a railroad town but I'm not sure if that was the first major transportation through there.

If you guys like a bus league so much then why not drop down to the ECHL where the cost to operate a team is even less?

The Eastern teams are the only ones who ever cry poor. Man up. If you didn't want teams outisde the New England/NY/PA region then wh did you even let the old IHL teams in and why do you allow teams in Canada? After all it is the AMERICAN hockey league.

 

[mmazz22]

Who's crying poverty? Why should we be deprived of good hockey and drop down to the ECHL?
If our teams are financially stable then who cares.
In a perfect world the league is split and you west big cities can be IHL like and us woodchucks in the poor old north east can ride our rickety busses city to city.
The original topic is to many teams in Ny and in my opinion is if they are all financially stable then no there is not to many teams.
Again in these small cities it's night and day from the larger ones.
The AHL team is king and gets tons of attention, very little other distractions and the cost of doing business is much less. And if the north teams make money with thier business models and the west makes money paying 2-5 times more in building rent and travel expenses then again who cares.

 

[RFA]

I don't own any teams, I doubt that anyone on here does.

My friends who own businesses try to keep costs down in general.

If there are two gas stations next to each other with a comparable product, I go to the cheaper one. So I guess I'm guilty of not being a man.

I'm not convinced that the ECHL is always cheaper to operate either.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Who's crying poverty? Why should we be deprived of good hockey and drop down to the ECHL?
If our teams are financially stable then who cares.
In a perfect world the league is split and you west big cities can be IHL like and us woodchucks in the poor old north east can ride our rickety busses city to city.
The original topic is to many teams in Ny and in my opinion is if they are all financially stable then no there is not to many teams.
Again in these small cities it's night and day from the larger ones.
The AHL team is king and gets tons of attention, very little other distractions and the cost of doing business is much less. And if the north teams make money with thier business models and the west makes money paying 2-5 times more in building rent and travel expenses then again who cares.

Good points. Same here in Utica. if there is a western division movement, then ..." And if the north teams make money with thier business models and the west makes money paying 2-5 times more in building rent and travel expenses then again who cares."

This was very well said. The old IHL teams were absorbed into the AHL because the airplane travel part of that business model didn't work as well as other reasons.

Cheap rent in Bingo and Utica and most small NE barns makes sense.

I dislike the ECHL business model, it has run amuck. Watched ECHL and old UHL and would take UHL anyday. Wouldn't be interested one bit in watching it.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Good points. Same here in Utica. if there is a western division movement, then ..." And if the north teams make money with thier business models and the west makes money paying 2-5 times more in building rent and travel expenses then again who cares."

This was very well said. The old IHL teams were absorbed into the AHL because the airplane travel part of that business model didn't work as well as other reasons.

Cheap rent in Bingo and Utica and most small NE barns makes sense.

I dislike the ECHL business model, it has run amuck. Watched ECHL and old UHL and would take UHL anyday. Wouldn't be interested one bit in watching it.

Don't think Hershey is crying poverty. I'll bet they don't want to start flying all over the place. See IHL comparison. The original IHL would still be around as a robust Midwest bus league with fierce rivalries if they hadn't went to large markets and airplanes. the proff was in the pudding...they came crawling to the AHL.

 

[trouty]

the only team in the East who flys is St.John's,and they Fly to Boston etc and bus the rest of the trip,sometimes 4-5 hr 1 way,then back to Boston and fly home.Most teams in the east only fly when they come here to play the Icecaps

 

[go comets]

Don't think Hershey is crying poverty. I'll bet they don't want to start flying all over the place. See IHL comparison. The original IHL would still be around as a robust Midwest bus league with fierce rivalries if they hadn't went to large markets and airplanes. the proff was in the pudding...they came crawling to the AHL.

really dont understand why these mid west ahl fans think they are owed franchises over eastern citys that have been a staple of the ahl for decades...... its citys like bingo, rochester, glens falls, springfield and hershey that make the ahl what it is. after all the ahl is a developmental league... why would they want to spend countless hours in airports, hotels and traveling , when they can be practising, resting and preparing for games staying in the north east?? the ihl tried the travel game, and obviously it didnt work..........

 

[UticaHockey]

If you guys like a bus league so much then why not drop down to the ECHL where the cost to operate a team is even less?

The Eastern teams are the only ones who ever cry poor. Man up. If you didn't want teams outisde the New England/NY/PA region then wh did you even let the old IHL teams in and why do you allow teams in Canada? After all it is the AMERICAN hockey league.

It has nothing to do with what we like. It has everything to do with what the NHL parent teams like. The close proximity of teams in NYS and the Northeast in general is good for player development and reduced cost. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be 6 teams in Upstate NY.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

It has nothing to do with what we like. It has everything to do with what the NHL parent teams like. The close proximity of teams in NYS and the Northeast in general is good for player development and reduced cost. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be 6 teams in Upstate NY.

It has nothing to do with what we like is correct and the NHL and AHL owners continue to accept declining/stagnant attendance numbers and a complete acceptance of irrelevance. As for teams crying poor (not poverty as this is a difference) the teams in the north and east always do that whenever the schedule is put out. We can't afford to face the western teams. Boo Hoo. Then why did you allow them into the AHL in the first place? They could have just increased the number of teams in the northeast without bringing in the teams west of rochester.

 

[mmazz22]

The other flip side to all this who plays who is if say your in Milwaukee as a fan do you really want to see the Binghamton Sens or Utica Comets? Would'nt an extra couple games against say the Wolves bring more attendance or care? I know an extra game in Bing against say Syracuse would be a bigger draw here than say the Rampage came to Bing. More emphasis on division games and conference games that have playoff implications are easier to market and most people understand importance of interconference/division games. I personally prefer more division rival games where true hate is built up. Can't hate a team you see once in 15 years.