Tomas Tatar: no more AHL

[PullHard]

I think Red Wings are 9th due to more factors than Tatar not playing. Like never getting top 3 draft picks, injuries, short season due to lockout, fatigue on the euro twins due to injuries, Smith being a complete let-down, too many rookies and sophmores injected into the lineup due to injuries, and I think Howard is playing too much, Monster didn't help much.

I think if Bert and Sammy were healthy and the team had time to build some chemistry with the new players, Red Wings would be top 5 right now.

As for defending Holland, I can't look at anything he's done and think "he should have done this" that would have made a HUGE impact on the DRWs making them a legit cup contender, unless of course, you want him to mortgage the entire future for a bunch of rentals for a one year window?? Even then, the team is too beat up and fatigue, it's just not their year. I chalk it up to "welcome to the Nu:NHL where the league is designed to give everyone a chance at winning".

Didn't imply Tatar was making or breaking our season, just all of Ken's moves in general,

but you're saying Bertuzzi and Samuelsson being healthy all year make us a top 5 team? In the league or the West? Can I have whatever you're having?

 

[HTT3*]

He shouldn't have pursued Sammy or Tootoo

I see. Who has the right handed shot between Nyquist and Tatar? Who adds the much needed toughness on the 4th line, and who QBs the PowerPlay for that right shot sniping situation between Nyquist and Tatar?

Looks like Holland does have a plan, doesn't it. He fills rolls needed on the team by finding players that fit that role. Nyquist and Tatar don't fill the 4th line toughness role, or the right handed snipers role.

 

[HTT3*]

Didn't imply Tatar was making or breaking our season, just all of Ken's moves in general,

but you're saying Bertuzzi and Samuelsson being healthy all year make us a top 5 team? In the league or the West? Can I have whatever you're having?

Top 5 in the west puts us at around 7 points up from where we are now. Bert is a shoot-out hero, so maybe he helps up get 3 extra points. Combine Sammy and Bert for another 15 goals, that might give us a few more wins in those 1 goal games. Bert is also known to put the team on his back and carry us through stretches when Z and/or Dats is slumping or injured. We've seen him do it the past few years.

Plus. Bert opens up space for Datsyuk and relieves some pressure. You don't think Bertuzzi is a significant improvement on Datsyuk's line over Abdelkader? Abdelkader doesn't even get used in the shoot-out.

As for Sammy, I think it is safe to assume he would be heads and shoulders better at the point over Brunner on the PP. Our PP would have been better from the start.

So to answer your question, yes I think DRWs could easily be 7 points up on the season had they had those two players healthy from teh start.

 

[BinCookin]

We have trouble scoring.

Tatar and Nyquist are (were) both producing at paces ABOVE many of our current players:

Top line (stars) (0.75-1PPG)
Datsyuk ~1 PPG
Zetterberg ~1 PPG

2nd line production (0.5-0.75PPG)
Franzen ~0.72 PPG
Brunner ~0.56 PPG

3rd line production (0.25-0.5PPG)
Filppula ~0.41 PPG
Cleary ~0.32 PPG
Abdelkader ~0.25 PPG


Tatar 0.39 PPG
Nyquist 0.35 PPG

They are officially our 6th and 7th best scorers on the team. Per Game. This does not even take into account ice time differences which we all know favour many players scoring many less points than them.

Next year these 2 better get a FULL NHL season, or I will get the pitch forks!!

Hate to quote myself...but

It is not Tatar vs Nyquist..

It should be Tatar+Nyquist vs Cleary+Abdelkader.

Look at the results, BOTH young kids should be where these 2 "older players" are.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I see. Who has the right handed shot between Nyquist and Tatar? Who adds the much needed toughness on the 4th line, and who QBs the PowerPlay for that right shot sniping situation between Nyquist and Tatar?

Looks like Holland does have a plan, doesn't it. He fills rolls needed on the team by finding players that fit that role. Nyquist and Tatar don't fill the 4th line toughness role, or the right handed snipers role.

I'm not going around in circles with you. You're not discussing. You're defending.
My opinion on this won't be hard to find if you're interested.

 

[BinCookin]

Top 5 in the west puts us at around 7 points up from where we are now. Bert is a shoot-out hero, so maybe he helps up get 3 extra points. Combine Sammy and Bert for another 15 goals, that might give us a few more wins in those 1 goal games. Bert is also known to put the team on his back and carry us through stretches when Z and/or Dats is slumping or injured. We've seen him do it the past few years.

Plus. Bert opens up space for Datsyuk and relieves some pressure. You don't think Bertuzzi is a significant improvement on Datsyuk's line over Abdelkader? Abdelkader doesn't even get used in the shoot-out.

As for Sammy, I think it is safe to assume he would be heads and shoulders better at the point over Brunner on the PP. Our PP would have been better from the start.

So to answer your question, yes I think DRWs could easily be 7 points up on the season had they had those two players healthy from teh start.

If we were healthy all year... who knows where we would finish.

Maybe lower, likely a little higher.

But generally speaking, we need another "bigger" name player or at least a good season from a rookie or two (I don't count Brunner, hes a grown up )

 

[HTT3*]

It should be Tatar+Nyquist vs Cleary+Abdelkader.

The biggest problem this team has faced the past 3 years is toughness. The team's biggest flaw was it was soft, and that was the biggest complaint on the forums. Holland goes out and drafts bigger players, signs FA tough players and finally has some grit and toughness, the answer to that is to remove a couple of gritty guys for a couple of 170ibs players? Nah, don't think so. Adding one weak 170ib player to the lineup is enough, don't need two....

Top 6 is soft enough, thanks

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

I never read that scouting report on him. I checked redwingscentral and hockeyfuture on him just now and nowhere does it say this. I was under the assumption he was going to be a 3rd line guy when Holland drafted him.

When he was drafted he was thought of as a boom or bust guy. He's rounded out his game over the past year, it's part of the reason why his points total suffered last year. He can now PK, block shots & play good defensive hockey & do all the little things coaches want.

Here's a quote from Hakan Andersson in June 2009, I'd assume after the draft, about Tomas Tatar. Came from his profile on redwingscentral.

“He’s a little bit bigger than (Jiri) Hudler, but this guy can skate. If there’s one knock on Hudler, it’s that he doesn’t have that top speed. Tatar has good top speed. He has good offensive instincts, too. He can shoot the puck, he can make a play, he can beat a defenseman 1-on-1. He could be a top two line player in the future. He can be a real sniper.â€

Now that he's rounded out his game he can play on a high tempo forechecking line with Helm instead of being a top 6 or only player and he won't be a defensive liability on any line he's on.

 

[PullHard]

Top 5 in the west puts us at around 7 points up from where we are now. Bert is a shoot-out hero, so maybe he helps up get 3 extra points. Combine Sammy and Bert for another 15 goals, that might give us a few more wins in those 1 goal games. Bert is also known to put the team on his back and carry us through stretches when Z and/or Dats is slumping or injured. We've seen him do it the past few years.

Plus. Bert opens up space for Datsyuk and relieves some pressure. You don't think Bertuzzi is a significant improvement on Datsyuk's line over Abdelkader? Abdelkader doesn't even get used in the shoot-out.

As for Sammy, I think it is safe to assume he would be heads and shoulders better at the point over Brunner on the PP. Our PP would have been better from the start.

So to answer your question, yes I think DRWs could easily be 7 points up on the season had they had those two players healthy from teh start.

Oh ok, west, yeah well I guess we'll never really know, but I too much prefer Bertuzzi in the top 6 than Abdelkader. Bert is good in shootouts. I don't know about top 5 in the west but yes I'd imagine at least 7th or 8th with a few extra shootout wins.

Thought you meant top 5 in the NHL and I had to do a double take.

 

[HTT3*]

When he was drafted he was thought of as a boom or bust guy. He's rounded out his game over the past year, it's part of the reason why his points total suffered last year. He can now PK, block shots & play good defensive hockey & do all the little things coaches want.

Here's a quote from Hakan Andersson in June 2009, I'd assume after the draft, about Tomas Tatar. Came from his profile on redwingscentral.



Now that he's rounded out his game he can play on a high tempo forechecking line with Helm instead of being a top 6 or only player and he won't be a defensive liability on any line he's on.

What I got from Andersson's comment was they hope he has 2nd line potential. I think they said the same thing about Sheahan, while many here think Sheahan will blossom into an elite bottom 6 player. I think they said Landon Ferraro has top 6 potential, too?

I put Tatar in the same level as Ferraro and Sheahan, but think Sheahan as the better top 6 potential out of all of them.

 

[Flowah]

The biggest problem this team has faced the past 3 years is toughness. The team's biggest flaw was it was soft, and that was the biggest complaint on the forums. Holland goes out and drafts bigger players, signs FA tough players and finally has some grit and toughness, the answer to that is to remove a couple of gritty guys for a couple of 170ibs players? Nah, don't think so. Adding one weak 170ib player to the lineup is enough, don't need two....

Top 6 is soft enough, thanks

If toughness is your game, why are you ragging on Tatar over Nyquist? Pretty obvious that Tatar, much like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, has found a way to be strong without being huge.

Neither Cleary nor Abby, but especially Cleary, play a "tough" game. Abby hits but his hits do not change the game. Datsyuk delivers bigger hits than Abby. Cleary was tough 3 years ago, not any more.

I would be all aboard the adding toughness and grit train if Cleary and Abby were those players. They are not. Might as well get some skill players up there then. Skill players we drafted, developed, and have faith in if the talk out of the organization is any indication. Players that have shown tremendous potential while they played up.

 

[Vladdy84]

Cleary is the softest player on the team.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

What I got from Andersson's comment was they hope he has 2nd line potential. I think they said the same thing about Sheahan, while many here think Sheahan will blossom into an elite bottom 6 player. I think they said Landon Ferraro has top 6 potential, too?

I put Tatar in the same level as Ferraro and Sheahan, but think Sheahan as the better top 6 potential out of all of them.

The part of the quote that stands out to me is that Andersson says "He’s a little bit bigger than (Jiri) Hudler, but this guy can skate. If there’s one knock on Hudler, it’s that he doesn’t have that top speed. Tatar has good top speed." Andersson pretty much says that because Hudler has a lack of speed he's held back, Tatar has that top speed and won't have the same restrictions in his game.

Yeah they said a similar thing for Sheahan. They said they hoped he would mature into a Franzen esque player, but also talked about how mature he was & how well he played defensively. When drafted Sheahan had top 6 potential but there was no doubt he would be in the NHL one day, it was a matter of if it was top 6 or bottom 6.

Ferraro though was only ever though to have 2nd line potential. "If everything works out the way you project, you hope he’s going to be a second-line forward", Jim Nill's take on Ferraro. The way he takes about Ferraro makes me think that he felt it was more likely he'd be a 3rd liner, not a 2nd liner.

The way that the scouts from the Wings talk about Tatar it seems that they felt he had top 6 upside but possibly top line if everything goes right. I already posted the Andersson quote but you can see that everyone thinks highly of him. The fact he came over and made the AHL instead of the OHL is crazy, imagine the impression that left on the front office. That this kid we drafted is already better then those in the OHL and he needed a higher challenge.

“He’s relevant in every game. He has a big future ahead of him. He’s got really, really nice hands, really good vision and he’s hard on the puck in the corners. He plays the game hard, too, for a skilled guy. He’s not big but he’s strong on his skates.” - Bob McNamara

This was after his first year in the AHL. He left quite the impression on McNamara and he's been with the Griffins their entire existence and he's seen some highly skilled guys go through the system. Tatar has the skill, motivation, speed & determination to be a very good & main part of an NHL team, he just has to be giving a fair chance.

 

[Winger98]

Hate to quote myself...but

It is not Tatar vs Nyquist..

It should be Tatar+Nyquist vs Cleary+Abdelkader.

Look at the results, BOTH young kids should be where these 2 "older players" are.

I don't see why it's just Cleary/Gator. Add Miller/Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton/Andersson to it. Tatar and Nyquist could slide into the top nine, help bump the IT for Cleary/Gator down a bit, and bump someone like Eaves and Emmerton out entirely, making us a stronger club.

What bothers me about this year is that, if we were healthy, it would have been a great year to have Nyquist and Tatar in the lineup. Bert and Sammy does give us good depth on the wings, Helm would have solidified the the third line. We could have had a very deep team if it had stayed healthy, a dangerous team. Except Tatar and Nyquist probably wouldn't have gotten looks on a healthy wings team because we not only went out and signed some depth forwards, we didn't move out lesser depth forwards to make room.

 

[nik jr]

Guess we'll see. But I totally understand why fans of other teams always say "Detroit fans overrate their prospects", which is proving to be true. I cringe whenever I see someone make a bold prediction about our prospects. 30 goals is a HUGE feat. Patrick Sharp doesn't even score 30 goals consistently every season and he's got all the offensive tools you want in a player. Tatar doesn't even have 10% of Sharps offensive awareness. On the flip side, Tatar isn't a Hudler type player either, he's not a floater who hides to the side of the net waiting for that sneaky one-timer. Tatar reminds me more of a smaller, weaker version of Miller with better hands. I'd be impressed if Tatar scored 20 goals a few times in his career.

your widely ridiculed thread "nyquist explosion" on the prospects forum may be the most famous example of why other fans say we overrate the prospects. iirc, you also had nyquist's stats wrong.

Look out Sidney Crosby, there is a new player in town. 18 game played All-Star.

Maybe next lockout, GMs will agree on changing the 82 game season into 18 game season so it can bloat that useless corsi stats

why do you think tatar has scored more per minute at ES than any other player?

corsi is not at all useless, which is why teams started recording it many years ago. corsi is one the best statistical predictors of how strong a team is.

It is one point different, and whereas Nyquist's bad games came at the start of his run Tatar's came more at the end of his run. Nyquist has been consistently dangerous in the last 10 games in a similar way to what Tatar was doing. They have both earned their keep.

Wish we could get the all rookie line

Nyquist - Andersson - Tatar

i don't think tatar was as ineffective as nyquist was at the start, but i also don't think he was as good as nyquist has been recently.

I see. Who has the right handed shot between Nyquist and Tatar? Who adds the much needed toughness on the 4th line, and who QBs the PowerPlay for that right shot sniping situation between Nyquist and Tatar?

Looks like Holland does have a plan, doesn't it. He fills rolls needed on the team by finding players that fit that role. Nyquist and Tatar don't fill the 4th line toughness role, or the right handed snipers role.

samuelsson never QBed. point is not necessarily QB (gretzky often ran PP from behind the net, sedins often run vancouver's PP from side), and a right handed shot is not necessary.

if nyquist and samuelsson were on PP together, nyquist would be far more likely to be QB.

I don't see why it's just Cleary/Gator. Add Miller/Eaves/Tootoo/Emmerton/Andersson to it. Tatar and Nyquist could slide into the top nine, help bump the IT for Cleary/Gator down a bit, and bump someone like Eaves and Emmerton out entirely, making us a stronger club.

What bothers me about this year is that, if we were healthy, it would have been a great year to have Nyquist and Tatar in the lineup. Bert and Sammy does give us good depth on the wings, Helm would have solidified the the third line. We could have had a very deep team if it had stayed healthy, a dangerous team. Except Tatar and Nyquist probably wouldn't have gotten looks on a healthy wings team because we not only went out and signed some depth forwards, we didn't move out lesser depth forwards to make room.

agree

 

[ALF AmericanLionsFan]

Do we call him up now that Miller is out for the remainder of the year?

 

[Frk It]

Do we call him up now that Miller is out for the remainder of the year?

They can't, unless someone else gets hurt in addition to Miller.

This leaves the Red Wings with 12 healthy forwards (Patrick Eaves was scratched on Saturday). They have exhausted their four post-trade deadline call-ups from the Grand Rapids Griffins and would need an injury in order to recall a player on an emergency basis.

 

[ALF AmericanLionsFan]

damn damn damn

 

[Maize and Blue]

Fine I'd trade him+ to get a REAL NHLER!

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Can they call him up for the playoffs if they make it?

 

[TatarTangle]

If toughness is your game, why are you ragging on Tatar over Nyquist? Pretty obvious that Tatar, much like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, has found a way to be strong without being huge.

You're talking to the same guy that was quick to discredit how good Patrick Kane is despite being small

If Babcock doesn't use either Nyquist or Tatar in the top 6 next year I would love to see a line of Tatar - Andersson - Nyquist. And considering Danny Cleary will be back to play in the top 6 I'd wager there's a good chance we may see that line.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Can they call him up for the playoffs if they make it?

Yes, no roster limits there.

 

[Flowah]

You're talking to the same guy that was quick to discredit how good Patrick Kane is despite being small.

I'd love to have a few players are terrible as Kane on this team.

 

[RedWingzz]

I completely agree with Tatar here. He has more than paid his dues with th Griffins. In his 18 game stint with the Wings he showed he is more than capable of playing in the NHL. Must be frustrating for him seeing guys like Cleary and Eaves and Miller playing, when Tatar is hands down better than them.

 

[WhalerBlue]

Tatar may be good enough to play for the Wings, but there is a problem. He does not take direction well. This was learned after he was drafted and the Wings gave in to some of his demands and signed him to a contract. Maybe they hoped that things would change once he became accustomed to North American hockey and witnessed the level of play. Not so much. Tatar thinks too highly of himself. He seems to have the skill set to be on the roster, but his attitude and "me" mentality just say not now and maybe never as a Wing. I would not be surprised if he was traded to accommodate his rather large ego. That is a shame. Skill set-yes. Attitude/ego-no. I saw him play at Grand Rapids and he was almost invisible. For the Wings to make a commitment of a roster spot for him, there has to be a change. That rests square on his shoulders.