OT: To Trotz or not to Trotz

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is exactly how I feel, with one exception:

We're so spoiled that we say things like, "we won't be a threat for a Cup for 10 years." I would actually be thrilled if we were threatening for a Cup inside 10 years. Let's say the last of Crosby, Malkin, and Letang retire in five years. It's totally possible (in fact, likely) that 5 years after that the team will be garbage. Heck, I'm from Vancouver - the Canucks have "threatened" a Stanley Cup precisely 2 times in 52 years of existence (I don't count being swept by the Isles in 82).

Yeah, I worded it a bit weird. I didn't mean to imply this team would be a Cup favorite again within a decade. I mean this team will be in the conversation again, probably to the degree of somebody like the Canes. Kinda just hovering around contending, more relevant than an annual 1st round exit but not as much of a threat as somebody in the next tier up.

I think it takes a whole lot of ineptitude and comical, nearly purposeful incompetence to really be mired at the bottom of the standings for a long time anymore. It doesn't take much to be a borderline playoff team, imo. That can be accomplished pretty easily if that's all a team really wants. It takes a lot more luck, and a singular focus on building from within to really build a foundation of long-term, perennial Cup contenders.

 

[BobCole]

Yeah, I worded it a bit weird. I didn't mean to imply this team would be a Cup favorite again within a decade. I mean this team will be in the conversation again, probably to the degree of somebody like the Canes. Kinda just hovering around contending, more relevant than an annual 1st round exit but not as much of a threat as somebody in the next tier up.

I think it takes a whole lot of ineptitude and comical, nearly purposeful incompetence to really be mired at the bottom of the standings for a long time anymore. It doesn't take much to be a borderline playoff team, imo. That can be accomplished pretty easily if that's all a team really wants. It takes a lot more luck, and a singular focus on building from within to really build a foundation of long-term, perennial Cup contenders.

Hm, not sure whether I agree. After the Pens, there are only 4 teams who have active playoff streaks longer than 5 years. So the number of "hovering around contending" teams is a pretty small group. For comparison, there are 5 teams with active playoff *droughts* of 4 or more seasons.

A cost of the Pens' nearly two-decade stretch of contention is likely to be a period where we are one of the handful of teams that misses the playoffs for several consecutive years, and even once we make them, it's totally conceivable that we could spend a decade or more as a team that's in/out of the playoffs and never a contender.

I don't know what gives you confidence that within a decade we'll be a "hovering around contending, more relevant than an annual 1st round exit" team. I don't think that's likely to be the case even if we are lucky to be blessed with good management.

To be clear, I'm not actually doom and gloom about this. I simply view it as the cost of the team's prolonged success. It's why I don't get super worked up about the team struggling now. Don't get me wrong, I think we're overdue for a new coach, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hm, not sure whether I agree. After the Pens, there are only 4 teams who have active playoff streaks longer than 5 years. So the number of "hovering around contending" teams is a pretty small group. For comparison, there are 5 teams with active playoff *droughts* of 4 or more seasons.

A cost of the Pens' nearly two-decade stretch of contention is likely to be a period where we are one of the handful of teams that misses the playoffs for several consecutive years, and even once we make them, it's totally conceivable that we could spend a decade or more as a team that's in/out of the playoffs and never a contender.

I don't know what gives you confidence that within a decade we'll be a "hovering around contending, more relevant than an annual 1st round exit" team. I don't think that's likely to be the case even if we are lucky to be blessed with good management.

To be clear, I'm not actually doom and gloom about this. I simply view it as the cost of the team's prolonged success. It's why I don't get super worked up about the team struggling now. Don't get me wrong, I think we're overdue for a new coach, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

This team's playoff streak ended for any rational-thinking person when they failed to win their play-in against the Habs, imo. The streak is an asterisk anymore, and being a perennial 1st round exit isn't much different to me than missing entirely or bombing and landing a top-5 pick. Team's miles away from being a legit threat, and has been since 2018, imo.

I guess I just think there's way too much parity in the NHL for teams to genuinely suck for an extended period of time. The Coyotes are an extreme example because they exist solely to act as the dumping ground for the NHL's awful contracts--I genuinely believe that's why the NHL and Bettman go to such lengths to keep them around. Even that team is stumbling around a playoff spot now. Teams like the Sabres were awful for years because the Pegulas were notorious shoulder-hoverers, meddling in the hockey decisions without any qualification to. Ottawa had Melnyk torpedoing that team for like a decade. The Wings stayed committed to an over the hill core, a complete numbskull in Holland, and a fraud in Babcock.

I don't think this team's odds of landing another generational talent are even worth talking about. But teams can build from the ground up pretty easily if they are patient, have a bit of savvy when it comes to finding useful players in trades, and their scouting/development teams (with a lot of luck) hit on a handful of guys to build around in the draft.

 

[BobCole]

This team's playoff streak ended for any rational-thinking person when they failed to win their play-in against the Habs, imo. The streak is an asterisk anymore, and being a perennial 1st round exit isn't much different to me than missing entirely or bombing and landing a top-5 pick. Team's miles away from being a legit threat, and has been since 2018, imo.

I guess I just think there's way too much parity in the NHL for teams to genuinely suck for an extended period of time. The Coyotes are an extreme example because they exist solely to act as the dumping ground for the NHL's awful contracts--I genuinely believe that's why the NHL and Bettman go to such lengths to keep them around. Even that team is stumbling around a playoff spot now. Teams like the Sabres were awful for years because the Pegulas were notorious shoulder-hoverers, meddling in the hockey decisions without any qualification to. Ottawa had Melnyk torpedoing that team for like a decade. The Wings stayed committed to an over the hill core, a complete numbskull in Holland, and a fraud in Babcock.

I don't think this team's odds of landing another generational talent are even worth talking about. But teams can build from the ground up pretty easily if they are patient, have a bit of savvy when it comes to finding useful players in trades, and their scouting/development teams (with a lot of luck) hit on a handful of guys to build around in the draft.

To miss the playoffs for 11 years in a row you have to be doing something wrong, that's for sure. But only half of teams each season make the playoffs, and a whole lot of teams are mired in mediocrity without making deep runs into the playoffs for a decade or more at a time. I think we're just that spoiled here. So again, the only part of your mindset about the team that I disagree with is that it'll be easy to find ourselves back as a "middle of the pack contender" quickly. I think the most likely outcome is that the fallout from these two decades is a decade or more where a good year is making the playoffs (and flaming out in the second round or earlier) and a bad year is missing the playoffs. That could be our plight for 10+ years. It's a norm for a lot of teams to be in/out of the playoffs, and it's only a handful of teams that are considered contenders for a stretch of several seasons.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

To miss the playoffs for 11 years in a row you have to be doing something wrong, that's for sure. But only half of teams each season make the playoffs, and a whole lot of teams are mired in mediocrity without making deep runs into the playoffs for a decade or more at a time. I think we're just that spoiled here. So again, the only part of your mindset about the team that I disagree with is that it'll be easy to find ourselves back as a "middle of the pack contender" quickly. I think the most likely outcome is that the fallout from these two decades is a decade or more where a good year is making the playoffs (and flaming out in the second round or earlier) and a bad year is missing the playoffs. That could be our plight for 10+ years. It's a norm for a lot of teams to be in/out of the playoffs, and it's only a handful of teams that are considered contenders for a stretch of several seasons.

Eh, I dunno. I think, again, there's way too much parity and talent around the NHL for teams to be consistently bad for a long time. If the focus is just making the playoffs and seeing what happens, I think you can do that without a huge turnaround time and without a ton of trouble. It's a whole different animal if your goal is to chase Cups. That's gonna take a lot longer, with a whole lot of people doing their jobs near perfectly and a lot of luck falling your way.

 

[Gurglesons]

Eh, I dunno. I think, again, there's way too much parity and talent around the NHL for teams to be consistently bad for a long time. If the focus is just making the playoffs and seeing what happens, I think you can do that without a huge turnaround time and without a ton of trouble. It's a whole different animal if your goal is to chase Cups. That's gonna take a lot longer, with a whole lot of people doing their jobs near perfectly and a lot of luck falling your way.

I mean look at what happened with Detroit and Buffalo in the era of parity.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean look at what happened with Detroit and Buffalo in the era of parity.

Well, Detroit turned what could've been a normal rebuild into an extended one by sticking by Holland/Babcock for too long--until 2019 and 2015 respectively. Buffalo had meddling owners and poor choices for management roles, on top of their franchise cornerstone having a massive, irrevocable falling out with the organization over his preferred treatment.

But hey, we're right on track to follow in Detroit's footsteps at least. Team stuck by JR for several seasons too many, and Sully's gonna be around until 2027, maybe longer. Cool!

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, Detroit turned what could've been a normal rebuild into an extended one by sticking by Holland/Babcock for too long--until 2019 and 2015 respectively. Buffalo had meddling owners and poor choices for management roles, on top of their franchise cornerstone having a massive, irrevocable falling out with the organization over his preferred treatment.

But hey, we're right on track to follow in Detroit's footsteps at least. Team stuck by JR for several seasons too many, and Sully's gonna be around until 2027, maybe longer. Cool!

I don't think we have the level of bad contracts Detroit does, but we could easily get there.

I think this team can easily pick up some solid pieces during the next couple years. Sell off a bunch once Crosby retires and be a contender within 3-4 years.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's crazy that Arizona is floating around .500 and within a wild card position given the way their schedule started.

 

[Andy99]

It's crazy that Arizona is floating around .500 and within a wild card position given the way their schedule started.

They are fun to watch, unlike the Pens….

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's crazy that Arizona is floating around .500 and within a wild card position given the way their schedule started.

People arguing that our record is a result of the talent on the roster not being good enough and *not* because of coaching really needs to look at some of the teams with similar records to the Pens and what their rosters look like.

 

[Gurglesons]

People arguing that our record is a result of the talent on the roster not being good enough and *not* because of coaching really needs to look at some of the teams with similar records to the Pens and what their rosters look like.

No it’s because we are old. I mean look at the Bruins, Isles and Lightning.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No it’s because we are old. I mean look at the Bruins, Isles and Lightning.

If we'd somehow lost to both the Caps and Leafs and were on a 10-game losing streak right now, I wonder if there would be any more heat on Sullivan in that scenario?

Probably not. He's the Teflon Don and they'd probably have just traded Kapanen and called it a day.

 

[Gurglesons]

If we'd somehow lost to both the Caps and Leafs and were on a 10-game losing streak right now, I wonder if there would be any more heat on Sullivan in that scenario?

Probably not. He's the Teflon Don and they'd probably have just traded Kapanen and called it a day.

The best part is they likely aren't even going to trade Kapanen. Just let Sullivan have him as the sacrificial lamb to scratch whenever we need to hold people accountable.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yet another old guy sucking ass.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The best part is they likely aren't even going to trade Kapanen. Just let Sullivan have him as the sacrificial lamb to scratch whenever we need to hold people accountable.

In the meantime, our goalie is playing injured because we don't want to LTIR him and the backup is even worse.

Penguins hokcey is back babee, AROOOO! (wolf howl)

 

[Pens x]

In the meantime, our goalie is playing injured because we don't want to LTIR him and the backup is even worse.

Penguins hokcey is back babee, AROOOO! (wolf howl)

Jarry is injured and DeSmith is sucking?

That’s shocking!

 

[dogthateats]

AROOOO! (wolf howl)

 

[HandshakeLine]

AROOOO! (wolf howl)

im afraid you do not grasp the enormity of who it is you are dealing with. (removes diaper,. revealing two sub-diapers ) Shall we continue..

 

[dogthateats]

im afraid you do not grasp the enormity of who it is you are dealing with. (removes diaper,. revealing two sub-diapers ) Shall we continue..

*places index finger above lip revealing a mustache tattoo* you won the internet for the day. *The Office meme*

 

[OtherThingsILike]

He's one of the few possible replacement coaches who wouldn't be a massive downgrade.
With that said, the team would be incredibly boring to watch with him. No, thank you.

 

[Pens x]

He's one of the few possible replacement coaches who wouldn't be a massive downgrade.
With that said, the team would be incredibly boring to watch with him. No, thank you.

It wouldn’t be exciting giving up leads with Trotz! No thank you!

This team isn’t particularly exciting to watch right now. Our goaltending sucks, our defense sucks, our special teams is a joke, and our bottom six adds nothing.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Again, I don't think Trotz is a great coach or anything, but if we're seriously thinking about giving this team a fighter's chance for the next two years, you got to stop the bleeding somehow.

But knowing this team, we'd sign Trotz and then immediately extend him for 3 years.

 

[Pens x]

Trotz would kill two birds with one stone - Sully and Hextall would be gone.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

It wouldn’t be exciting giving up leads with Trotz! No thank you!

I admit I would rather win 2-1 than lose in any fashion, but while pursuing that strategy might be worthwhile for a playoff series, or even a whole postseason, it's far too much to be doing it during the regular season as well.

This team isn’t particularly exciting to watch right now.

When they aren't gassed from going through a particularly difficult stretch of the schedule, they are.