To Make Whole or Make Partial -- THAT is the question (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXV

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[Hatter]

This really is getting harder and harder to believe.

 

[coolasprICE]

There WILL be hockey this year.

No way in hell the NHL is going to scrap a 2nd year.

Fehr is fully aware of the NHL's pressure to not lose a season - there will be a deal that will include 50 to 60 games.

Believe y'all

 

[MikeK]

There WILL be hockey this year.

No way in hell the NHL is going to scrap a 2nd year.

Fehr is fully aware of the NHL's pressure to not lose a season - there will be a deal that will include 50 to 60 games.

Believe y'all

I love your optimism but I don't see how the 2 sides can get a deal done. The P.A and Fehr are asking unreasonable demands. This isn't just going to kill this season but I fear this will drag on into next.

 

[JAX]

There WILL be hockey this year.

No way in hell the NHL is going to scrap a 2nd year.

Fehr is fully aware of the NHL's pressure to not lose a season - there will be a deal that will include 50 to 60 games.

Believe y'all

I've always said he will stall until dec, then......his bluff will be called.

 

[PBPantherfan]

Your neighbor won't turn down the radio. You break down his door and do it for him. The police arrest you. You argue that it was the neighbors fault for not turning down his radio. You go to jail. You discover that in the eyes of society you are responsible for your own actions.

Bettman stopped hockey. No one made him do it. He is responsible for his own actions. the 'just following orders' defence was discredited in the late 40's.

Wow so when exactly did Gary kick in the players door? A better example you rent a house to a guy and his lease is coming up. You tell him things have changed you need to change his rent because your costs have changed and of the 30 houses you own his is one you aren't making any money on. He ignores you says I'll continue to rent but at the same rent I have been paying for the last 6 years. You say no and when the lease ends you evict him. Who's fault is it that the guy got evicted?

 

[Tra La La]

I believe its coming from anticipated growth in future years. The first two years would not be covered but with the NHLs "conservative" growth projections, 50% of revenue three years from now should equal today's player share of $1.8 billion. then in future years additional growth in revenue would allow the players to be repaid this amount they lost.

But still it seems to me the NHL offer is legit. I don't get this, what is the 389* million more the players want?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/20186/stalemate-returns-to-cba-negotiations

the league’ $211 million Make Whole offer is not anything to sniff at; it’s a tangible move on the league’s part. But it’s still nowhere close to where the NHLPA would be willing to sign off on. Try about $600 million or so. That might do it.

The league offer covers the transition from 57-50%. What is the NHLPA asking for 389 million more for? Wouldn't it just be salary cap hockey as usual, after the three year make whole period?


(Note 389 million short,thought it read 600 million)

 

[Freudian]

Except in the quoted statement above witnessed by reporters and players.

There isn't any quote from Fehr saying this. It's a statement from a reporter. It's a misunderstanding from Globe and Mail. For example Grange claims "The players have indicated that they expect to be paid their full share for the 2012-13 season, regardless of how many games are played. The owners, in other words, should pay every cent of the costs incurred by the lockout." which is the opposite of what the Globe and Mail says.

You can see the what Fehr actually is saying at 5.35 or so in this clip when asked what happens in regards to the numbers in a shortened season. He specifically says that is something they will deal with once the economics are in place.

If you can't find a quote where Fehr claims the NHLPA will be fine with prorated salaries for a shortened season, please stop claiming that is what they will do.

"we would look at the structure of the agreement based upon what their presumed growth rates were and see if on that basis we were close enough to see if we would be in the same ballpark, the same arena and we would then deal with with the lockout issues afterwards. Based on their reactions today that I don't fully understand, they are not willing to do that".


That is a direct quote from Donald Fehr. There is nothing vague about it.

 

[gmerger37]

I just can't get over a professional sports league that generates billions of dollars a year, whose players make millions of dollars a year on average, losing 2 whole season within a decade.

It makes no sense.

 

[Tra La La]

There isn't any quote from Fehr saying this. It's a statement from a reporter. It's a misunderstanding from Globe and Mail.

You can see the what Fehr actually is saying at 5.35 or so in this clip when asked what happens in regards to the numbers in a shortened season. He specifically says that is something they will deal with once the economics are in place.

If you can't find a quote where Fehr claims the NHLPA will be fine with prorated salaries for a shortened season, please stop claiming that is what they will do.

"we would look at the structure of the agreement based upon what their presumed growth rates were and see if on that basis we were close enough to see if we would be in the same ballpark, the same arena and we would then deal with with the lockout issues afterwards. Based on their reactions today that I don't fully understand, they are not willing to do that".


That is a direct quote from Donald Fehr. There is nothing vague about it.

That being the De-linked scheme the league is not going to accept .

 

[MaskedSonja]

There's still time for a season, but realistically, I'm expecting, barring anything HUGE, in about two weeks NHL cancels Dec games.

And if a month from now they still arent close, all bets are off for a season. So, essentially, IMO, they've got about a month left of negotiation before they seriously start cancelling the season.

And while yes I know last time it went to Feb before cancellation, I don't it gets that far this year-my own gut speculation.

 

[Renbarg]

There isn't any quote from Fehr saying this. It's a statement from a reporter. It's a misunderstanding from Globe and Mail. For example Grange claims "The players have indicated that they expect to be paid their full share for the 2012-13 season, regardless of how many games are played. The owners, in other words, should pay every cent of the costs incurred by the lockout." which is the opposite of what the Globe and Mail says.

You can see the what Fehr actually is saying at 5.35 or so in this clip when asked what happens in regards to the numbers in a shortened season. He specifically says that is something they will deal with once the economics are in place.

If you can't find a quote where Fehr claims the NHLPA will be fine with prorated salaries for a shortened season, please stop claiming that is what they will do.

"we would look at the structure of the agreement based upon what their presumed growth rates were and see if on that basis we were close enough to see if we would be in the same ballpark, the same arena and we would then deal with with the lockout issues afterwards. Based on their reactions today that I don't fully understand, they are not willing to do that".


That is a direct quote from Donald Fehr. There is nothing vague about it.

This still doesn't make any sense. It sounds like Fehr backtracked when he spoke to the media. If he had no intention of prorating contracts in his counters or proposals that would be very clear in the meeting, somebody would have most certainly stood up and said "you mean prorate, right?" That's not a point that could be misunderstood. Reliable reporters have sources from inside the meeting room and a lot of these reporters reported the same thing.

 

[CN_paladin]

There isn't any quote from Fehr saying this. It's a statement from a reporter. It's a misunderstanding from Globe and Mail. For example Grange claims "The players have indicated that they expect to be paid their full share for the 2012-13 season, regardless of how many games are played. The owners, in other words, should pay every cent of the costs incurred by the lockout." which is the opposite of what the Globe and Mail says.

You can see the what Fehr actually is saying at 5.35 or so in this clip when asked what happens in regards to the numbers in a shortened season. He specifically says that is something they will deal with once the economics are in place.

If you can't find a quote where Fehr claims the NHLPA will be fine with prorated salaries for a shortened season, please stop claiming that is what they will do.

"we would look at the structure of the agreement based upon what their presumed growth rates were and see if on that basis we were close enough to see if we would be in the same ballpark, the same arena and we would then deal with with the lockout issues afterwards. Based on their reactions today that I don't fully understand, they are not willing to do that".


That is a direct quote from Donald Fehr. There is nothing vague about it.

The details above were never mentioned in the memo the PA leaked.

 

[PBPantherfan]

Originally Posted by WiFi75

Because that way players would've only pay for his negotiation skills. It took Mr Fehr's ego out of the equation. And it could be much faster and effective way to get some results. It's players job to evaluate the proposals and decide if they can play with it or not. Fehr doesn't know how hard it is to play hockey, does he?

If players want to outsource their intelligence and common sense, it's much more expensive and ineffective. But you're right. We can't determine the contract between players and Mr Fehr. It's their business.

Fehr is like a lawyer for the players they are paying for his opinion and negotiating skills. Why would you not want your lawyer to give you advice? That makes no sense. Lawyer "Well they are offering to give you $100k for your suit" You "Well is that a good offer? We were suing for 10 million" Lawyer "I am just here to get you an offer not tell you if it is any good" seems kind of silly doesn't it?

 

[MaskedSonja]

That being the De-linked scheme the league is not going to accept .

I think that's the biggest thing right now-until the PA starts talking LINKED numbers, not averages based on de-linking, the NHL will not budge. They lost a season to get linked revenues, they'll gladly lose a season to make sure it stays that way.

 

[MikeK]

I just can't get over a professional sports league that generates billions of dollars a year, whose players make millions of dollars a year on average, losing 2 whole season within a decade.

It makes no sense.

It really is asinine isn't it. The NHL might be the best game but is certainly isn't the best run from either side. Far from it. They are a total embarrassment.

 

[Muffin]

I just can't get over a professional sports league that generates billions of dollars a year, whose players make millions of dollars a year on average, losing 2 whole season within a decade.

It makes no sense.

Revenue =/= Profit. Most people don't seem to understand the differences, including the players.

 

[IslesBeBack*]

The NHL should throw a huge curveball into this:

"NHLPA, I'll lift the lockout right now. Get you back to training camps, and we can continue to negotiate. We'll even start paying you for this season immediatly. The only catch? We need to negotiate directly with the players, not Fehr. And to take it one step further, we'll guarantee every single cent of your previous contracts. Just as long as we negotiate with the players directly."

Watch how fast the NHLPA crumbles to the ****ing ground. Bettman has to get creative and go around Fehr, now. Accusing him is one thing. The toolbags that say "He tells us everything" are still going by his script. Fact is, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of players who are starting to lose their patience. Only so long before it begins. Bettman needs to up the ante.

 

[CN_paladin]

Is it safe to say that there won't be a meeting today? Leaking that memo changed everything.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Is it safe to say that there won't be a meeting today? Leaking that memo changed everything.

Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
The NHL lockout has hit the eight-week mark. Despite bad feelings yesterday, the sides are communicating today and may still meet.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Players hire representative because they don't know much about collective bargaining -> Owners demand to negotiate with players directly because players don't know much about collective bargaining -> Players get insulted.

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

Revenue =/= Profit. Most people don't seem to understand the differences, including the players.

I think most people do understand the difference.

I also think that most people understand that the NHL was paying the players something like 74 percent of HRR when the revenue pool was $2 billion, and are currently paying them 57 percent when the revenue pool is $3.3 billion.

What (some) don't understand is why the owners can't turn a profit when their labor costs have decreased (in relative terms) at a time that revenues have grown by more than 50 percent..

 

[Alesle]

But still it seems to me the NHL offer is legit. I don't get this, what is the 389* million more the players want?

The league offer covers the transition from 57-50%. What is the NHLPA asking for 389 million more for? Wouldn't it just be salary cap hockey as usual, after the three year make whole period?


(Note 389 million short,thought it read 600 million)

The league's offer covers the transition fully in the event of a 5 % (or more) average growth. The players want it guaranteed no matter what the growth rate is. Seemingly, using growth rate as the basis of an offer is only acceptable when NHLPA is making the offer. Funny how that works.

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

The NHL should throw a huge curveball into this:

"NHLPA, I'll lift the lockout right now. Get you back to training camps, and we can continue to negotiate. We'll even start paying you for this season immediatly. The only catch? We need to negotiate directly with the players, not Fehr. And to take it one step further, we'll guarantee every single cent of your previous contracts. Just as long as we negotiate with the players directly."

Watch how fast the NHLPA crumbles to the ****ing ground. Bettman has to get creative and go around Fehr, now. Accusing him is one thing. The toolbags that say "He tells us everything" are still going by his script. Fact is, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of players who are starting to lose their patience. Only so long before it begins. Bettman needs to up the ante.

That would be illegal.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

The NHL should throw a huge curveball into this:

"NHLPA, I'll lift the lockout right now. Get you back to training camps, and we can continue to negotiate. We'll even start paying you for this season immediatly. The only catch? We need to negotiate directly with the players, not Fehr. And to take it one step further, we'll guarantee every single cent of your previous contracts. Just as long as we negotiate with the players directly."

Watch how fast the NHLPA crumbles to the ****ing ground. Bettman has to get creative and go around Fehr, now. Accusing him is one thing. The toolbags that say "He tells us everything" are still going by his script. Fact is, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of players who are starting to lose their patience. Only so long before it begins. Bettman needs to up the ante.

Way to miss the entire point of a union. Maybe the players should go around Bettman and negotiate directly with each individual owner huh? I bet a few of them actually want to get the season started.