To Make Whole or Make Partial -- THAT is the question (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXV

[SuperUnknown]

Hopefully, the AHL game that sold out last night in Montreal will be an eye opener for players. Why does a game sells out at the Bell Center and yet the same teams playing in Hamilton would have gotten 15% of the attendance (at best)? Simply because while the players are important, the organisation and the hockey infrastructure is just as important in getting fans and revenues.

The NHL players have profited from a strong NHL to earn revenues they would have no change earning in other leagues/other infrastructure and instead of pouting they should be happy to stay the best paid pro sports athlete compared to the overall revenues they bring in.

 

[Freudian]

I guess that's one way of reading it.

It seems to me that acknowledging that there are a lock-out related issues that need to be addressed once a framework is in place is implicitly a recognition that some form of pro-rating will be necessary. After all, if he was simply going to insist on full payment, he would be denying the lockout as a factor at all (in that context), no?

Anyway, I think we can all agree that if the players demand full payment for a shortened season, they 1) will not get it, and 2) will bring a massive, near universal backlash upon themselves. I have yet to hear / read the NHLPA say that--only unsourced implications of such. Until they actually state that as a demand, I'm going to assume that common sense will prevail, at least on this narrow slice of the negotiations. (Fully recognizing that common sense seems in short supply around the NHL offices these days).

Think of it this way. Why would the owners not be willing to prorate contracts for a shortened season, if that is what Fehr actually offered to do?

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

Think of it this way. Why would the owners not be willing to prorate contracts for a shortened season, if that is what Fehr actually offered to do?

Well, of course they would. They would insist on it.

I'm not sure I follow.

It seems to me that Fehr is simply holding out on accepting that (very fair) demand as a bargaining chip--though I don't know why, since it isn't a particularly valuable concession (the blowback against the players for not agreeing would be so large as to consume whatever goodwill they have left, even from people like me, who generally find some validity in their complaints about some of the NHL's handling of the whole situation).

Does anyone actually believe that they are going to hammer out the core economic and contract issues, and then the players are going to walk away because they aren't getting paid for the full season?

I just don't see that happening.

 

[Freudian]

Well, of course they would. They would insist on it.

I'm not sure I follow.

It seems to me that Fehr is simply holding out on accepting that (very fair) demand as a bargaining chip--though I don't know why, since it isn't a particularly valuable concession (the blowback against the players for not agreeing would be so large as to consume whatever goodwill they have left, even from people like me, who generally find some validity in their complaints about some of the NHL's handling of the whole situation).

Does anyone actually believe that they are going to hammer out the core economic and contract issues, and then the players are going to walk away because they aren't getting paid for the full season?

I just don't see that happening.

Fehr is still demanding that players salaries go up in every proposal he makes. He expects the players contracts being guaranteed to the cent, despite that not being the case under the previous CBA. Why would he not demand that players be compensated for "the owners lockout"?

The reason why the owners are not willing to settle the economics and then deal with the economic effects of a shortened season is because they know what Fehr is about.

 

[W75]

Originally Posted by WiFi75

Because that way players would've only pay for his negotiation skills. It took Mr Fehr's ego out of the equation. And it could be much faster and effective way to get some results. It's players job to evaluate the proposals and decide if they can play with it or not. Fehr doesn't know how hard it is to play hockey, does he?

If players want to outsource their intelligence and common sense, it's much more expensive and ineffective. But you're right. We can't determine the contract between players and Mr Fehr. It's their business.

Fehr is like a lawyer for the players they are paying for his opinion and negotiating skills. Why would you not want your lawyer to give you advice? That makes no sense. Lawyer "Well they are offering to give you $100k for your suit" You "Well is that a good offer? We were suing for 10 million" Lawyer "I am just here to get you an offer not tell you if it is any good" seems kind of silly doesn't it?

You've got a point there, got to admit.

It's only I'm so sick and tired of this struggle of power. Fehr's got his reputation and ego to protect. Bettman has a whole business on his shoulders. And all this should be solved with pure sense, not in any other way.

It's like someone suggested earlier.. If players and teams have disagreements, they call outsiders, mediators.. to settle the things. It's just the same.

Let the middlemen, who knows the world economy, revenue things, labour issues and everything just consider what is the healthiest and fairest solution. Bring it to the players and owners. If they don't take it, don't play. Cancel everything.

But this whole media and PR circus is unnecessary and weary. Bettman and Fehr are making the wrong bets. They're not playing smart because they've got too much to lose. Save the passion for the game itself. Hockey rink is the place where it's needed.

Of course it's not gonna happen, because every side have their rights to demand anything they want. This is a free world. And hockey isn't any crucial component of humanity, nothing necessary to settle for a salvation of mankind.

 

[Stuck in Socal]

I would really prefer for them to announce a cancelled season right now.
I know it is too early for that calender wise, and they don't care about the fans, but put us out of our misery.

 

[isles31]

I would really prefer for them to announce a cancelled season right now.
I know it is too early for that calender wise, and they don't care about the fans, but put us out of our misery.

Just stop investing emotion bud. Look at it like this. They fight over percentages of money they get from us fans, and they're going to get 100 percent of zero from me, my family and all of my friends for years. We're sick of this garbage and this is not how a professional league is run. Fehr has zero invested in hockey. All he cares about is his legacy and the PA is blindly following him down a black hole.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I would really prefer for them to announce a cancelled season right now.
I know it is too early for that calender wise, and they don't care about the fans, but put us out of our misery.

Agreed. I'm at the point now where if we did have a season this year, I might not watch because I just don't care anymore. They've cancelled the Winter Classic, they've pretty much ignored the fans in this whole thing, and this is a possible second cancelled season in a decade. This league has major issues beyond the Make Whole or Hockey Related Revenue. It's the issue of stability and that's something I wish they negotiated. If they promised like 20 years of peace and uninterrupted play in exchange for this (and maybe next) season, I could live with that and it might make this lockout worth it. If we are in this position 5-6 years from now, again, than really, screw the NHL.

 

[scelaton]

Slightly OT, but indulge me.
Read an interesting article in today's Globe and Mail by Eric Reguly, on the economics of the KHL. I cannot find an e-link, so here are a few excerpts:
"With a scarcity of fans, none of the 20 KHL teams in Russia turns a profit."
"My hot dog, Snickers bar and bottled water comes to...$3.25. A game ticket costs about $10."
"...teams are controlled by an eclectic mob of state and private owners that make you wonder whether Russian pro hockey is business, charity or vanity project."
"Most of Russian teams play in terrible stadiums that they do not own..."
"TV revenues are pathetic...about $4 million a year....compared to the NHL....deal averages $200 million a year"

Not to mention airline safety...

Anyone who thinks the KHL is a viable alternative to the NHL is smoking something. There is no other economic model on earth that generates the salary and lifestyle for hockey players that the NHL does. They live in a bubble and their PA is reinforcing the notion that they needn't ever leave it, regardless of the economic realities in the best of all hockey worlds.
They need to wake up, thank their lucky stars and get back to work.

MOD: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ut-nhl-stars-khl-still-a-mess/article5175535/

 

[MacOfNiagara]

He wasn't specific at all.

You're making assumptions.

If you're going to start a sentence with "What Fehr actually said was" it should be followed with what he actually said, find the quote, you'll be surprised at how open to interpretation it was!

Correct. Saying it will be dealt with is not the same as saying we will agree to prorating. I suspect they will not agree to prorating and will use it as a bargaining chip (which is asinine).

I recall early in the process suspecting that Fehr is subtly leading the players to believe they will get paid for missed games. I doubt it is anything overt, but if he could get them to believe / suspect this is the case (get paid for missed games), it would relieve much of the pressure point of losing paychecks and would get Fehr more support.

 

[Shrimper]

I think a deal will get done next Friday.

 

[BLONG7]

I think a deal will get done next Friday.

wow, love your optimism...after yesterday, I am not so sure...

What are you basing this on?

 

[Pilky01]

The headlines for these long running threads are great!

Is it just one, or a couple people, or are the names a community project?

The last couple CBA ones, and the Coyotes 64th thread...

 

[OneMoreAstronaut]

Fehr is still demanding that players salaries go up in every proposal he makes. He expects the players contracts being guaranteed to the cent, despite that not being the case under the previous CBA. Why would he not demand that players be compensated for "the owners lockout"?

The reason why the owners are not willing to settle the economics and then deal with the economic effects of a shortened season is because they know what Fehr is about.

This definitely seems like Fehr's trick that he likes to use - get the players playing, somehow, and then pull the rug out from under the owners afterwards. He's just looking for a new way to achieve that. If he thinks the owners can't see that one coming again, even if it's by a different method this time, he's completely loony.

 

[KPower]

I hope the season is lost and some teams are contracted, players lose jobs, and the league never fully recovers.

Both sides are to blame and both sides need to suffer for their stupidity.


I do feel bad for the average worker that is affected though.

 

[stuffradio]

Hopefully, the AHL game that sold out last night in Montreal will be an eye opener for players. Why does a game sells out at the Bell Center and yet the same teams playing in Hamilton would have gotten 15% of the attendance (at best)? Simply because while the players are important, the organisation and the hockey infrastructure is just as important in getting fans and revenues.

The NHL players have profited from a strong NHL to earn revenues they would have no change earning in other leagues/other infrastructure and instead of pouting they should be happy to stay the best paid pro sports athlete compared to the overall revenues they bring in.

The AHL games in Abbotsford, BC last night and tonight are sold out also. The AHL team in Abbotsford is the Calgary Flames farm team, and they are facing the Edmonton Oilers farm team with RNH.

 

[ThirdManIn]

I hope the season is lost and some teams are contracted, players lose jobs, and the league never fully recovers.

Both sides are to blame and both sides need to suffer for their stupidity.


I do feel bad for the average worker that is affected though.

So you hope that all of those average workers are unable to return to their jobs for an entire year, but it's OK because you feel for them? Neither side is going to suffer all that much over a lost season. The players who aren't paid in the millions might feel a pinch, but I doubt it. They can still play overseas. The only people who are really going to be punished are those average workers.

 

[KPower]

So you hope that all of those average workers are unable to return to their jobs for an entire year, but it's OK because you feel for them? Neither side is going to suffer all that much over a lost season. The players who aren't paid in the millions might feel a pinch, but I doubt it. They can still play overseas. The only people who are really going to be punished are those average workers.

If those workers are so important in all of this why is there never any mention of them from either side?

Both sides will suffer if teams are contracted and it takes years for the revenues to return like I stated in my original post.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

I think a deal will get done next Friday.

Surely everyone on this board will send you a box of fine cigars if this is true.

 

[Account Terminated]

If those workers are so important in all of this why is there never any mention of them from either side?

Both sides will suffer if teams are contracted and it takes years for the revenues to return like I stated in my original post.

Media doesn't give two craps about the average, blue collar worker making minimum wage, who depends on that job to pay their bills. All that matters to the media - both social and news - is the billionaire owners and millionaire players arguing over money and terms. That's it.

 

[Zibanejad]

Slightly OT, but indulge me.
Read an interesting article in today's Globe and Mail by Eric Reguly, on the economics of the KHL. I cannot find an e-link, so here are a few excerpts:
"With a scarcity of fans, none of the 20 KHL teams in Russia turns a profit."
"My hot dog, Snickers bar and bottled water comes to...$3.25. A game ticket costs about $10."
"...teams are controlled by an eclectic mob of state and private owners that make you wonder whether Russian pro hockey is business, charity or vanity project."
"Most of Russian teams play in terrible stadiums that they do not own..."
"TV revenues are pathetic...about $4 million a year....compared to the NHL....deal averages $200 million a year"

Not to mention airline safety...

Anyone who thinks the KHL is a viable alternative to the NHL is smoking something. There is no other economic model on earth that generates the salary and lifestyle for hockey players that the NHL does. They live in a bubble and their PA is reinforcing the notion that they needn't ever leave it, regardless of the economic realities in the best of all hockey worlds.
They need to wake up, thank their lucky stars and get back to work.

Hello buddy and good day! Do you think their football(soccer) is any different? Or Soccer in china? Soccer in middleeast or east europe. Have a look at chelsea fc or Paris SG how much money they have taken from the owners pocket! Etc etc This will go on until they no longer have any oil, gas or governmeent money or will to finance it...

Profit and KHL are two different planets, the question is not if but how much loss they make.

 

[W75]

Slightly OT, but indulge me.
Read an interesting article in today's Globe and Mail by Eric Reguly, on the economics of the KHL. I cannot find an e-link, so here are a few excerpts:
"With a scarcity of fans, none of the 20 KHL teams in Russia turns a profit."
"My hot dog, Snickers bar and bottled water comes to...$3.25. A game ticket costs about $10."
"...teams are controlled by an eclectic mob of state and private owners that make you wonder whether Russian pro hockey is business, charity or vanity project."
"Most of Russian teams play in terrible stadiums that they do not own..."
"TV revenues are pathetic...about $4 million a year....compared to the NHL....deal averages $200 million a year"

Not to mention airline safety...

Anyone who thinks the KHL is a viable alternative to the NHL is smoking something. There is no other economic model on earth that generates the salary and lifestyle for hockey players that the NHL does. They live in a bubble and their PA is reinforcing the notion that they needn't ever leave it, regardless of the economic realities in the best of all hockey worlds.
They need to wake up, thank their lucky stars and get back to work.

Good that someone brought this to daylight. I'm not familiar with the exact facts and figures but it sounds reasonable. What I suppose, that it's not business at all. Oligarchs and other businessmen have their hobbies. Sports and hockey is one of them.

We've seen businessmen buying forexample English Premiere League clubs (soccer) and turned them to Premiere League champs and Champions League winners. Still I don't know if it's business or what it is.

I don't know if there's someone here, who knows this subject more closely and could comment, how it's really done in KHL?

 

[PensFanSince1989]

It's on the previous page. I assumed people didn't need it posted again, but, for your sake, here:

He's dodging the issue. Will the players salary be pro-rates this year, or not? What's there to discuss unless the players union is going to fight for their full 82 game salary.

I would not be surprised if this was the disagreement:

NHL takes issue with NHLPA memo and how it portrayed their offer as having a significant gap in make whole. They say they are basically giving them exactly what they are asking for, and are only using a 5% growth model past year 3 to assume that all players will be made whole.

NHLPA responds and says no, you have t made us whole, what about the $400 million or so players have already lost this year if they only play 60 games or so? They e been very adamant that they want every penny they feel is owed to them.

NHL: outrage, and this is when things go bad and leaks get out.

 

[Spongolium*]

There is only one side that doesn't give a **** about the fans, and it's not the one that needs them to operate......

 

[Kings4thecup]

I think most people do understand the difference.

I also think that most people understand that the NHL was paying the players something like 74 percent of HRR when the revenue pool was $2 billion, and are currently paying them 57 percent when the revenue pool is $3.3 billion.

What (some) don't understand is why the owners can't turn a profit when their labor costs have decreased (in relative terms) at a time that revenues have more than doubled.

74% of 2b is less than 1.5b
57% of 3.3b is 1.83b
50% of 4.5b is 2.25b

Have their player costs decreased?