Proposal: Time To Talk About Blowing It Up, 2nd Rebuild Or Finish This One?

[ginner classic]

I am not sure a blow it up strategy even applies here unless you are talking about shipping out J.T. Miller for picks, or even Horvat and Boeser. The first I could make a case for, the other two result in a deep, deep rebuild.

The other things stopping a blow it up approach is contracts we just can't get rid of. What is the point to rebuilding if you are also trading away picks to get out from problem contracts. In my mind, paying to dump those contracts only makes sense in a win-now scenario where you just need to free up 6 million or so to fit that final piece in, or two lower end productive players. We are really not there either. We are in no man's land and the only path forward involves ditching the idiot that keeps putting us in a bad spot. That is the first move and only move that matters.

Just get a great GM and let them figure out the rest. That's it. That is the armchair GM move.

Beyond that.... a smart GM would immediately acquire picks for Pearson, Benn, Sutter, and Virtanen without taking on any money past this year. We can afford to take on money this year equal to what we ship out. Next year, you go shopping at wal-mart with an analytics guy focusing your acquisitions. Bang for buck has to be the mantra next year. One year show me deals, reclamations at league min etc. like Nichushkin was for the Avs last year. If there are teams that are only expoising one useful asset to Seattle, go trade for them. I'm thinking Tyson Jost types. I would still go for useful depth like my long term favorite cheapie target McKeown. Juulsen might fit too. Add buckets of them. Purge all the guys we already know have no chance like Brisebois, Sautner, Eliot, and Teves. Those 50 contracts need to be treated like gold. They need to either have NHL potential or have a beneficial role in developing your prospects (Nolan Baumgartners).

 

[Cogburn]

Cut off the deadwood, try to move a remaining contract or two, and we're looking a lot better.

Hopefully with a new coach and management staff.

 

[Pavel96]

When was the first "rebuild" and what did the canucks actually do to rebuild?

All I saw was:

1. A reluctance to trade 90% of expiring contracts
2. a net loss in draft picks, prospects traded for veterans
3. spending to the cap every year
4. whenever there was cap space - signing veterans to inflated, long term deals.

Sure the canucks record made them appear to be in a rebuilding phase - but that was Jim Benning trying to ice as competitive of a roster as he was able to put together - some of the worst teams, relative to their competition, in Canucks history.

 

[MS]

When was the first "rebuild" and what did the canucks actually do to rebuild?

All I saw was:

1. A reluctance to trade 90% of expiring contracts
2. a net loss in draft picks, prospects traded for veterans
3. spending to the cap every year
4. whenever there was cap space - signing veterans to inflated, long term deals.

Sure the canucks record made them appear to be in a rebuilding phase - but that was Jim Benning trying to ice as competitive of a roster as he was able to put together - some of the worst teams, relative to their competition, in Canucks history.

Who knows what to call what we did here.

We didn't intentionally take any of the steps you would take in a traditional rebuild, but we did accomplish the most important part of a rebuild (bad finishes --> high draft picks) solely on the back of the fact that one of the most incompetent administrations in the history of pro sports accidentally finished at the bottom of the NHL standings for several years in a row completely by accident when they thought they had built a competing team.

Unfortunately, during that time period we did literally nothing else to build asset depth, system depth, or a feasible cap structure to help the team move forward beyond that accidental rebuild. So we're in this rubbish situation where we have a few bars of gold surrounded by an absolute ton of shit.

 

[4Twenty]

Two biggest rebuilding moves were made by the previous GM.

Schneider for 9th overall and Luongo for Matthias and Markstrom.

There hasn't been any other intentional concerted efforts to rebuild at any point in this managers tenure.

 

[m9]

This entire thread just seems so meaningless and frustrating until there's a change in management.

 

[infinitemile]

This entire thread just seems so meaningless and frustrating until there's a change in management.

this entire forum, hell even watching the games, is meaningless and frustrating until there's a change in management

 

[rypper]

I don't think there ever truly was a rebuild. Just trying to win and failing and being rewarded for that with high picks.

That being said I don't think they need to tear it down completely. We're not a the point where you look to trade horvat. Get out from some bad contracts, make some astute trades (upcoming free agents, jt Miller, etc) with a future based return in mind and you can turn it around in a year or two.

 

[JiffyPB]

Sign Hughes, Boeser and Petey to long term contracts. Trade out money and let bad contracts expire for time being. Sign a bunch of value players in offseason to cheap show me deals and either ride them to playoffs or trade at 2022 deadline for picks. Then 2022 you have money to work with to fix D core and fill out competitive top 9. Just suck it up like the oilers did after 2017 and you’ll be fine.

 

[Fatass]

Two biggest rebuilding moves were made by the previous GM.

Schneider for 9th overall and Luongo for Matthias and Markstrom.

There hasn't been any other intentional concerted efforts to rebuild at any point in this managers tenure.

Imo Gillis was fired by Aquilini for suggesting the team’s core was old (I think Torts pointed this out too) and a rebuild breeding to happen. Gillis was 100% correct, and if our owner would have simply supported the most successful GM we’ve ever had, the rebuild would be over several years ago, and Gillis would be tweaking the fringes of the new core. He proved he could do that well previously.

 

[theguardianII]

After listening to Benning's press meeting I am more sure than ever that this guy doesn't have leadership qualities.
Wait to see what the market is for Pearson, a player on a 27th place team so it is something or nothing.
"I don't know" at least 4 times to questions
"We will talk when the time comes", when? The team is mathematically out of the playoff run in 4 more losses.
"Podkozin, maybe, if, I don't know"
This is a drafting team? 7 years 5 players?
No commitment as to what a good team is, just losing close games apparently.

This guy guarantee's the mushy middle for the next 12 years.

A whole generation of fans will not see a good team again with Benning at the helm.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Imo Gillis was fired by Aquilini for suggesting the team’s core was old (I think Torts pointed this out too) and a rebuild breeding to happen. Gillis was 100% correct, and if our owner would have simply supported the most successful GM we’ve ever had, the rebuild would be over several years ago, and Gillis would be tweaking the fringes of the new core. He proved he could do that well previously.

Gillis was completely correct that the team needed a rebuild, but was he the man for the job?...I dont think so.

 

[Fatass]

Gillis was completely correct that the team needed a rebuild, but was he the man for the job?...I dont think so.

Why not Gillis? What hadn’t he done, other than be successful?
One down year. Suggest rebuild. Get fired.

 

[theguardianII]

Gillis was completely correct that the team needed a rebuild, but was he the man for the job?...I dont think so.

I don't know about that.
He had an aging team that needed a retooling.
A question is how to get the very top picks, lose and keep a good team?

You get rid of the good goalies and play a couple of AHL guys while you wait for the stud, Markstrom, to come around in the AHL, tanking without being too obvious or saying it like TO did.
That year after Virtanen draft the rules were still guaranteed 1rst or 2nd if DFL.
The next year could have been a resurgence
Gillis's group wanted Larkin instead
So there would have been a shot at McDavid or Eichel and the next year possibly still being in the lottery in a deep draft.

So Horvat, Larkin and ?Eichel/McDavid plus a possible 2015 lottery player would be mentored behind a experienced defence that had played together for 5/6 years, had a still effective Sedins as mentors and some player other than Kesler, but probably a player. Gillis would have traded Kesler for what was best for the team, as he always did, instead of letting Kesler limit the team. Maybe even Kesler sticks around.

He had Tortorella, the NHL's best coach for young players/teams available and once the new core forwards were settled then the Sedins either retired or were demoted to 2nd/3rd liners.

And all the while he had 5+ million every off season to sign FA's because the cap was constructed to provide flexibility and leverage in making deals.

A tank job by just not having NHL level goaltending, easier to move one player than upsetting a team load.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Why not Gillis? What hadn’t he done, other than be successful?
One down year. Suggest rebuild. Get fired.

One of the worst stretches of drafting in modern NHL history doesnt help....That would instantly disqualify you from initiating a rebuild.
but again, he did see the writing on the wall.

 

[wreckless]

Gillis was completely correct that the team needed a rebuild, but was he the man for the job?...I dont think so.

LOL.

so the forward thinking, extraordinarily intelligent, league trend setting GM who was -always- ahead of the curve would have been bad at a rebuild??

and don't bring up drafting, my 7 year nephew could throw darts at top 10 picks and hit on 75% of them.

and yea, Benning has done SUCH a better job.. 7 years into his tenure and we need another 2 years to be competitive...? not a contender, COMPETITIVE!

in year 9, being competitive is the goal.

this is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

LOL.

so the forward thinking, extraordinarily intelligent, league trend setting GM who was -always- ahead of the curve would have been bad at a rebuild??

and don't bring up drafting, my 7 year nephew could throw darts at top 10 picks and hit on 75% of them.

and yea, Benning has done SUCH a better job.. 7 years into his tenure and we need another 2 years to be competitive!? not a contender, COMPETITIVE! IN YEAR 9 BEING COMPETITIVE IS THE GOAL.

this is beyond ridiculous.

Not really ..Benning wasn't allowed to do a rebuild either...Hitting on an NHL player is one thing, hitting on elite players is another (without winning the lottery).
No argument from me that Benning not having enough depth after 7 years is just cause for a job disqualification.

 

[RobertKron]

Gillis was completely correct that the team needed a rebuild, but was he the man for the job?...I dont think so.

ok cool. Neither was Benning, it turns out.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I don't know about that.
He had an aging team that needed a retooling.
A question is how to get the very top picks, lose and keep a good team?

You get rid of the good goalies and play a couple of AHL guys while you wait for the stud, Markstrom, to come around in the AHL, tanking without being too obvious or saying it like TO did.
That year after Virtanen draft the rules were still guaranteed 1rst or 2nd if DFL.
The next year could have been a resurgence
Gillis's group wanted Larkin instead
So there would have been a shot at McDavid or Eichel and the next year possibly still being in the lottery in a deep draft.

So Horvat, Larkin and ?Eichel/McDavid plus a possible 2015 lottery player would be mentored behind a experienced defence that had played together for 5/6 years, had a still effective Sedins as mentors and some player other than Kesler, but probably a player. Gillis would have traded Kesler for what was best for the team, as he always did, instead of letting Kesler limit the team. Maybe even Kesler sticks around.

He had Tortorella, the NHL's best coach for young players/teams available and once the new core forwards were settled then the Sedins either retired or were demoted to 2nd/3rd liners.

And all the while he had 5+ million every off season to sign FA's because the cap was constructed to provide flexibility and leverage in making deals.

A tank job by just not having NHL level goaltending, easier to move one player than upsetting a team load.

Horvat, Larkin and McDavid..Cool story.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

ok cool. Neither was Benning, it turns out.

He wasnt allowed to do a rebuild either.

 

[I am toxic]

Sign Hughes, Boeser and Petey to long term contracts. Trade out money and let bad contracts expire for time being. Sign a bunch of value players in offseason to cheap show me deals and either ride them to playoffs or trade at 2022 deadline for picks. Then 2022 you have money to work with to fix D core and fill out competitive top 9. Just suck it up like the oilers did after 2017 and you’ll be fine.

What about Demko? Short or long?

What about trading Miller?

What about Horvat? Are you going to trade him?

 

[VibinCanuck]

They never actually started a proper rebuild and will likely pay for it this year and the next before they get better.

They need to look at maximizing values, recuperate the prospect cupboard and push young talent for the start of their true window, which will start in 2 years with most of the dead weight contracts gone.

This means Horvat and Miller will likely need to be shopped because both will be starting declines when the team is truly in their competitive window. They also could have tons of value to teams out there with financial security for 2 seasons.

 

[I am toxic]

ok cool. Neither was Benning, it turns out.

Now hold on.

Is someone suggesting that the greatest general manager in the history of the team was not the person for the rebuild?

The guy who, once he started rebuilding, got us Marky and Horvat among other futures?

For real? I mean, if that's the case, you would think their standards are beyond the moon.

And yet, they aren't, are they?

 

[December5th]

Who knows what to call what we did here.

We didn't intentionally take any of the steps you would take in a traditional rebuild, but we did accomplish the most important part of a rebuild (bad finishes --> high draft picks) solely on the back of the fact that one of the most incompetent administrations in the history of pro sports accidentally finished at the bottom of the NHL standings for several years in a row completely by accident when they thought they had built a competing team.

Unfortunately, during that time period we did literally nothing else to build asset depth, system depth, or a feasible cap structure to help the team move forward beyond that accidental rebuild. So we're in this rubbish situation where we have a few bars of gold surrounded by an absolute ton of shit.

you have completely hit the nail on the head

 

[RobertKron]

He wasnt allowed to do a rebuild either.

Oh.

This topic is flogging a dead horse...."rebuild".."transition to youth"..?...All of the media are calling it a rebuild,and rebuilding teams are generally at the bottom of the standings right.?

Benning has not actively tried to acquire lots of picks,but these moves don't suggest he's loading up on veterans.

• Dahlin
• Goldobin
• Petrus Palmu (via the pick for Hansen)
• Boucher, via wavers,
• Brisebois for Lack.
• Leipsic for Holm-
• Motte: kind of a whatever return for Vanek,but still a move to get younger

What young prospects have been blocked by veteran players that Benning has brought in?

Yes,bad teams are rewarded with good players..is not that why we have the draft..?..Is our current prospect pool now invalidated because Benning didn't acquire enough picks or do things the 'right way".?

I wouldn't trade Tampa's current prospect pool for ours...and don't forget they went through a span of 6 years and only made the playoffs once (2007-11)....

So they spent to cap..its Aqualini's money...Other than Boesers bonus' going over,what are the ramifications of that?

Also, later in the same thread you said, about the following post "The best post in this thread is Krutovs post #54...Sums it up to tee..."

let's see

all the old regulars are gone except edler and tanev, tanev being one of the youngest old regulars, and edler having an ntc he has publicly stated he will not waive.

we have a bunch of young prospects and players who are the obvious emphasis and focus of the team including a couple already on the team.

we have, without question, one of the strongest prospect groups in the league

we presently have a motley crew of stop gap roster players including some failed hail marys and half busted leftovers who were prospects of the previous regime. none of these players are the emphasis and focus of the team although some have more future than others.

sure looks like a rebuild to be. it seems to walk like a duck and talk like a duck, but since it's benning's duck i guess for some it must be a goose.

Seems like you were pretty heavy on board the "this was a rebuild" train a couple years ago. What changed?