Proposal: Time To Talk About Blowing It Up, 2nd Rebuild Or Finish This One?

[LaVal]

The rebuild is half complete. They have a solid young core in all positions, and promising prospects coming up (Rathbone, Podz, likely top-5 pick this year, etc). What Benning has continually failed to do, is provide that core with a competent supporting cast. The pro scouting in this management group is absolutely awful. Nearly every move made outside of the draft has been a disaster. IMO, an average GM with the same amateur scouting staff would have turned this franchise into a playoff team, if not a contender by now.

You can't redo this half complete rebuild. Outside of the core, the contracts on this team are immovable. Best case scenario Benning and company get the boot, and the new management is able to fill the roster with a solid supporting cast as the bad contracts on the team expire.

 

[RobertKron]

As someone who doesn't really care very deeply about the Canucks winning a cup, I don't think now is the time to finally decide to start a rebuild. There's no sense wasting the careers of some of these players when we could at least watch them take a real crack at something every game through their primes.

Get someone with the vision to add to the team, move out dead salary as best as possible to get a good piece on D, and then surround the core group with a bunch of dependable, high-effort low-cost guys who even if they fail, will at least be likeable in failure. Be a consistent mid-playoff qualifier, go on some good runs with the talent they've got. A team doesn't have to be the odds-on favourite every game to be entertaining, enjoyable to watch, and maybe provide some memorable runs.

 

[Diversification]

Of course you don't blow it all up. It doesn't require a huge leap of imagination to see how this team becomes competitive in the few years. We've actually seen a similar team undergo the same transformation when Gillis was brought on.

Of course, all of this is for naught if Benning is still around. But there's enough smoke there to believe he's on his way out at season's end: Aqua's vote of confidence (never a good sign), inability to make any moves to rescue his job this season, reversion of team to lottery status this season, rumblings from reporters in the know.

 

[clay]

Well, he should be. If you want to have a contending team, you can't be fielding Myers in your top-four. He's really not good.

Some of the guys you listed will be RFA, which further decreases the likelihood of adding them. And say we do add a Pulock (absolutely the best fit on that list), you have to factor in the large cap allocation required.

Which brings us to the forward corps. It's not that we're in bad situation up front (I literally said I'm a huge believer in Hoglander/Podz), but some key decision will have to be made on raises to nearly the entire top-six. Then if you take those raises, add in the previously add high-value defenseman, we're looking at a large increase in cap allocation to the top of the lineup. Now, if we're going to spend, definitely better to do it on top-of-the-lineup pieces, but can we afford all of Petey, Brock, Hughes, UFA defenseman, Miller, Horvat, making at least $6 million (and likely higher for some)? And factor in a raise to Hoglander, raise to OJ if you're penicillin him in...and then you need to fill out the rest of the roster.

It's a tough ask for the new GM.

The bolded is incorrect. They are all UFA. 2022 NHL Free Agents Tracker

Regarding Myers, my take is that he is a completely fine #4, but landing one of the stud UFAs and having just one of Juolevi/Rathbone/Woo step up into the top four would bump him to the third pairing, making this a moot point.

The forward corps cap situation is manageable with a competent front office. Look at some of the best teams in the league in the Leafs and Lightning. The Leafs have 8 guys making $5M or more including 3 guys making over $33M. The Lightning have 9 guys making $5M or more and 12 players making $4.45M or more.

Your take is way too doom and gloom. This team is in a great spot after next year with just a few moves.

 

[MS]

The bolded is incorrect. They are all UFA. 2022 NHL Free Agents Tracker

Regarding Myers, my take is that he is a completely fine #4, but landing one of the stud UFAs and having just one of Juolevi/Rathbone/Woo step up into the top four would bump him to the third pairing, making this a moot point.

The forward corps cap situation is manageable with a competent front office. Look at some of the best teams in the league in the Leafs and Lightning. The Leafs have 8 guys making $5M or more including 3 guys making over $33M. The Lightning have 9 guys making $5M or more and 12 players making $4.45M or more.

Your take is way too doom and gloom. This team is in a great spot after next year with just a few moves.

Also, one of the few good things about this season is that the struggles of Pettersson and Hughes have probably cost them $2 million each relative to had they continued their play from the bubble.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Also, one of the few good things about this season is that the struggles of Pettersson and Hughes have probably cost them $2 million each relative to had they continued their play from the bubble.

They're not stupid. I wouldn't be surprised to see them both take 1-year bridge deals and bounce back hard next year.

 

[MS]

They're not stupid. I wouldn't be surprised to see them both take 1-year bridge deals and bounce back hard next year.

I doubt even Benning would be stupid enough to hand out 1-year bridge deals. But you never know. Boeser had to take 3 on his bridge.

 

[LordBacon]

There’s no easy way out of this shit,
Capped out, insufficient Blue chip prospects, incompetent FO/coaching staff/Ahl team/scouting.

Not to mention the once in a blue moon COVID season where the cap stays flat,
Whoever comes in next better have 420IQ
because it’s gonna be tough as hell

 

[valkynax]

Rebuild?

What rebuild?

 

[theguardianII]

I had not finished so I will continue now.

One of the big dangers is thinking with your heart. Some most successful people in the world are not particularly popular because they have to make decisions that are best for the company/franchise.

There is no "I" in team and no one player that makes a team good, (see McDavid) but what does influence a manager of a business that want to sell a product is popularity.

Hughes is popular because right out of the gate he was advertised as a steal, although 9 other scouting departments let him go by for some "mysterious" reason. He was already established as a high scoring defenceman for a couple of years, but he was also scrutinized because he had horrible defensive numbers. Numbers which have continued into the NHL.

Would anyone cheer for a forward that never scores but is great at defence? Sutter, Roussel.
Isn't that what Eriksson is? Paid to score as a forward but doesn't, Hughes is about to paid to play defence, but isn't and physically can't.
What is the difference?
But a defenceman that has horrible defence numbers is becoming revered.
In truth he is not much more than a forward lining up on defence. And his size doesn't help either for that position.

I use him as an example because he is very obvious the lack in the position he plays.
Horvat is just getting ground down

There are other aspect that support a blow up.

Essentially fan heart's should be broken already and applauded for the patience and tolerance of losing an average of 45 games a year for 7 year.

A blow might sound scary, but could the team be worse.
Currently it is designed to be stuck in the mushy middle, even now it is only on the cusp of a playoff spot, not even the mushy middle.
The team is not a couple of players away, maybe if they were MacKinnon and McDavid but Benning has assured the cap prevents getting already proven players that might improve the team enough.

The Seattle expansion is a wonderful opportunity to shorten a rebuild by 2 or even 3 years and every 1rst round pick the team gets represents another year of a rebuild so if the price is paid are total rebuild can happen within 3 years.

Fans here revel in watching one single new player each year, why not 3 or 4 for two years?

This was a Colorado approach and I am pretty sure many fans will acknowledge that Colorado is not a fluke.
TO also did the same thing but really the Canucks are ahead of them if they did something similar.

A blow up would have to start at the top.
This management group has had 7 years to gain fan trust by showing performance improvements.
All they have show is they can fool the public into selling out the arena or close to it even in the face of opposing statements from within, that is until the GM fired all who disagreed.

Keepers
Demko, Pettersson for sure.
Horvat for leadership unless he has a desire to move or a blockbuster offer - and I would trade him for Dahlin.
Boeser - he is really turning his game into 200' guy but that contract has to go - he will get a two to three to one return.
Miller - I am not sure his heart was ever in coming here, Florida is along distance away but Florida might be a good trade partner
Juloevi - he actually impressed me a little but still has that #5 overall pick that helps enhance the look of adding more to a trade.

I am sure there isn't any doubt but IMO Dahlin will be THE key piece on the back end that can play both ways, a complete defenceman

So peel the bandaid off slowly or give it a fast yank, get it over with.

At least my way improvement is physically seen within 3 years not a 7 year "next year" or "next prospect" sales job.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

Lots of references to turning over management here. Not going to defend Benning, but I have a question: if Benning was out today or this off-season, who would you target as his long-term replacement? And I don't mean "what kind of GM" should be hired. I mean which person/ people specifically.

Re: OP, I see the team as half-way. There is a core taking shape. Need to strike on a couple other prospects or picks to bring it together. Also need to get out from under the veteran long-term deals, Luongo penalty, and COVID-stalled cap increases (which are all very painful right now).

 

[Josepho]

Lots of references to turning over management here. Not going to defend Benning, but I have a question: if Benning was out today or this off-season, who would you target as his long-term replacement? And I don't mean "what kind of GM" should be hired. I mean which person/ people specifically.

Re: OP, I see the team as half-way. There is a core taking shape. Need to strike on a couple other prospects or picks to bring it together. Also need to get out from under the veteran long-term deals, Luongo penalty, and COVID-stalled cap increases (which are all very painful right now).

Pat Verbeek strikes me as the safest candidate, but would be willing to try Tulsky as well.

Honestly, it's impossible to truly know unless you're interviewing the GM personally. Everyone thought Fenton was a great candidate for the longest time.

 

[m9]

I wouldn't blow it up, but you should also be very aggressive in the next 18 months.

1. New management at some point between now and the end of the year.

2. Be extremely aggressive in moving out depth roster players right now that have any value.

3. Figure out what is going on with JT Miller. Does he want to be a part of this team? If not, trade him.

4. Evaluate the market for trading off the bad contracts with one year left like Roussel, Beagle, Virtanen, Holtby, Eriksson, etc. If you can dump any for a reasonable price, do it.

5. Do what you can to move out the long-term bad contract on the team in Tyler Myers, hopefully to a team that doesn't see it as that bad of a contract.

6. Going forward, only spend money on the key 13 players on your team: 4 wingers, 3 centers, 5 defenseman, starting goaltender. The other 10 players make 15 million bucks combined.

 

[theguardianII]

Voted 'the rebuild is half done' and it is.....but in order to get to the finish line, the Canucks are going to need new strategists in the executive booth.

As the awful contracts slowly lapse, the 'replacements' need to be hungry, depth players on affordable contracts. It's going to take a hockey ops department with a lot better handle on pro scouting and some experience in identifying these players and then acquiring them.

A possible problem with waiting too long for contracts to expire even though it is only one year, is that the players could stagnate and be smothered by a bandaid approach.
A blow up, front office down, is a new starting point.
Get what players, younger guys, together quickly so the bad few years are spent together without the pressure of the anvil of "being a playoff team" that is FAILING rather than an upcoming team that is exceeding expectations.
The fans will come out to see the next shiny penny or three. I know most here won't remember but the rookie line of Smyl, Fraser and Gradin were worth the price of admission and elevated fan pride.

Colorado has been a very good team for a while now and are still one of the youngest in the league as is Columbus and Carolina. Younger than the Canucks.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

1) Gut and replace all management. Top to bottom. Start fresh.

2) Move anyone with liquid value (i.e. players with manageable short-term contracts) for prospects and picks. They need to work on replenishing the pipeline NOW, not 3 years from now. This is how you remain competitive over time, and it's the returns Chicago got for Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg etc. that allowed them to pivot and win another Cup in 2015. Toews and Kane were making huge money by that point.

3) No more contracts exceeding $4 million per season/3 years on anyone that isn't in your top 6 or top 4 and between the ages of 18-30. If it means the "big fish FAs" won't sign here, good. 9/10 times they don't deliver for what they're being paid and decline immediately or midway through the deal.

4) Pay Seattle to take Myers, and wait for Eriksson/Sutter/Beagle/Roussel to get off the books before being aggressive in trades/signings. Find out what Pettersson/Boeser/Hughes/Hoglander/Demko will take to keep long-term as your core to build around.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

A second rebuild may not be by design or choice.

The next 2 years are a lost cause in terms of contending for a playoff spot. This team is saddled with ridiculously bad contracts and most of the complementary players are aging. It sounds like Aquilini is going to be sticking with Benning until the expiration of his contract so this team will clearly not be making the moves required to build up prospect depth, nor will they be fragile while trying to plug the holes in the roster.

You have a top line with Pettersson, Hoglander and Boeser as your core upfront unit. Horvat and Miller are in their prime but are going to be at the end of it when you are ready to contend.

Hughes is a #2 offensive dman. There isn't much on the back end after him. This team clearly needs a #1 guy back there.

The prospect pool is incredibly thin. Nothing really after Podzolkin and Rathbone.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

A possible problem with waiting too long for contracts to expire even though it is only one year, is that the players could stagnate and be smothered by a bandaid approach.
A blow up, front office down, is a new starting point.
Get what players, younger guys, together quickly so the bad few years are spent together without the pressure of the anvil of "being a playoff team" that is FAILING rather than an upcoming team that is exceeding expectations.
The fans will come out to see the next shiny penny or three. I know most here won't remember but the rookie line of Smyl, Fraser and Gradin were worth the price of admission and elevated fan pride.

Colorado has been a very good team for a while now and are still one of the youngest in the league as is Columbus and Carolina. Younger than the Canucks.

Colorado got a massive, massive gift with MacKinnon's contract. He went from 53 points to 97 immediately after signing that deal and cost himself millions because of it. He's put up 311 points in 244 games since then and should be at double his current cap hit.

 

[Diversification]

Lots of references to turning over management here. Not going to defend Benning, but I have a question: if Benning was out today or this off-season, who would you target as his long-term replacement? And I don't mean "what kind of GM" should be hired. I mean which person/ people specifically.
...

I can understand your point of view in that the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't. But regardless of who Benning's replacement is, there will be a big benefit in that it isn't him. What I mean by that is that his successor will have the luxury of dispassionately cleaning up Benning's missteps without sentimentality or need to save face. That's the sort of spring cleaning (Sutter, Eriksson, Beagle, Roussell, Myers) that's sorely needed here for the long term health of the team.

I'm not Aqua, but I would say now is the time to do it. We need to start the clean up process early so that a new GM (regardless of who it is) will have the political capital with ownership to make TDL deals that will set up further deals in preparation for the expansion draft. Benning, due to his precarious position has to balance the needs of the team with his own immediate needs to stay on as GM.

 

[I am toxic]

Pat Verbeek strikes me as the safest candidate, but would be willing to try Tulsky as well.

Honestly, it's impossible to truly know unless you're interviewing the GM personally. Everyone thought Fenton was a great candidate for the longest time.

What about Futa? Any thoughts on him?

 

[Josepho]

What about Futa? Any thoughts on him?

Obviously I'd prefer him to Jim and I fully acknowledge that he could be a great NHL GM, but I'd really rather not have another "drafting" GM. I want a clever "out-of-box" cap-wizard type. Based on what we as fans know, he wouldn't be my first choice.

You can definitely add Gilman to the list of top candidates in the previous message I posted, for similar reason.

 

[theguardianII]

I wouldn't blow it up, but you should also be very aggressive in the next 18 months.

1. New management at some point between now and the end of the year.

2. Be extremely aggressive in moving out depth roster players right now that have any value.

3. Figure out what is going on with JT Miller. Does he want to be a part of this team? If not, trade him.

4. Evaluate the market for trading off the bad contracts with one year left like Roussel, Beagle, Virtanen, Holtby, Eriksson, etc. If you can dump any for a reasonable price, do it.

5. Do what you can to move out the long-term bad contract on the team in Tyler Myers, hopefully to a team that doesn't see it as that bad of a contract.

6. Going forward, only spend money on the key 13 players on your team: 4 wingers, 3 centers, 5 defenseman, starting goaltender. The other 10 players make 15 million bucks combined.

You mentioned Eriksson.
You have to be careful that the same thing isn't happening with Hughes.

Eriksson signed to big money to score goals, doesn't - over paid defensive player
Hughes - defenceman - that is not good at playing defence. For 3 1/2 years Hughes defensive play has been a concern.

 

[theguardianII]

Colorado got a massive, massive gift with MacKinnon's contract. He went from 53 points to 97 immediately after signing that deal and cost himself millions because of it. He's put up 311 points in 244 games since then and should be at double his current cap hit.

It is how they got him that is the trick.

 

[passive voice]

If Benning stays, we're very obviously doing (1). Like, you can pretty much carve it in stone.

If we bring in actual management, then (2) becomes an option.

That's not true. If Benning stays we'll never reach (1); the bad contracts will just have new players' names on them.

 

[Oddleifson]

How bout change the management first

Only this. NOTHING changes, unless those directing traffic from above are _upgraded_. That starts with ownership, then flows straight down to Green. New blood required, or all the same false (as in we be lied to...) scenarios get thrown around, until, 5 years later, HEY WE'RE IN THE SAME *(@#* PLACE!!

Add the requisite statement referencing all the deck chairs that have been rearranged while the ship has been taking on massive water....

 

[ginner classic]

My next GM search starts with a math test. I don't care about their hockey knowledge if they are idiots. I want wicked smart people, that are also great hockey minds. Honestly I think some of these guys have C.T.E. from their playing days, and also barely finished high school.