Proposal: Time To Talk About Blowing It Up, 2nd Rebuild Or Finish This One?

[theguardianII]

Well it is evident that this team is no where near ready to take on the good teams.

First lets put to rest last years fluke and illegal appearance in the playoffs.

Fluke because the NHL allowed 24 teams into the try outs.
Illegal because the Canucks were allowed to circumnavigate NHL rules on the cap for playin games allowing them a 14 million dollar advantage and not losing any players through the waivers.

All the players got older but the elders on the team lost more faster, they did not improve, they declined and the majority of the team fit in that category.
The players this team are leaning on are the youngest, Edmonton did this for a decade and did it work? Is it necessary to try it here?
One of the issues is over valuating player values and skills.
Hughes is especially a player that will sell tickets and provide entertainment in the regular season IF they an get a super defensive player to play with him although it seems he get a pass after pass for bad plays, being out of position and not being able to win battles in the dzone, he is fun to watch when he skates with the puck all over the place, but too individual and the rest of the team get lost trying to figure out what he is going to do and try to cover up for him.
Pettersson is what he is, a very good forward, how good is yet to be seen but not up to the level of the super stars of the league so far, a team players though.
Boeser has improved his game becoming more a 200' player, his injuries could come back to haunt him in 5 years or so though but right now there are teams in WIN NOW that could give the Canucks a big push in improvement as long as fans realize that instant gratification isn't on the shelf.
Horvat has been a warrior, improving year after year but losing is starting to become the norm for him, again another player that could get multiple players of his level that are younger.
Miller is a hot commodity and another player that could fetch a key piece for a decade team plan.
Demko is on the cusp of being a goalie for 8 years or so that will be a Vezina canditate.

If there is a blow up it isn't a matter of winning every trade
It isn't about spending to the cap or over.
It will be about a plan with targeted players to create a long term core.

If the plan has Pettersson and Demko as the main parts to build around then the next part is who to target to get the other four key parts.
I would want a stud defenceman that can play both
Dahlin is probably the most available believe it or not. Buffalo will be capped soon, they already have decent defense without him. A Hughes for Dahlin is some form can be made. IMO
Sergachev, a step down from Hughes in offence but improvements in size and defence.
Any deal for another defenceman should be for a top tier player in their early 20's

That's all the examples I care to give.

The main thing is that the team is married to any of these assets and if any are dealt they should be for players that are well vetted, the team can't be trading away McCanns' for Gudbranson's or picks for cap relief in Miller or Schmidt. Those are loser trades that help other teams rather than the Canucks.

Teams to try to trade with
Buffalo - Dahlin, Cozens, Eichel, Rienhart
Arizona -Ekman-Larsson with 50% retention and pick/prospect, Chychrun
Detroit - They would want Hughes +, Larkin or Mantha
NJD -
Carolina - Svechnikov - because of cap, they have to sign Hamilton
Seattle -
Edmonton - win now - TDL, help load them up for top picks


Another aspect

Let all the FA's go, trade them
Use retention to improve returns for expiring contracts.
Ignore division rivalries for trades, ie; Sutter/Pearson/Edler/Holtby to Edmonton/Calgary/Ottawa/Toronto with 50% retention but top end returns.
Acknowledge that there are no marriage contracts ie; Hughes, if he can get a top 3 forward or used to get the right defenceman.
Think about player desires within limits, this goes towards league wide reputation. ie; Horvat, a great warrior here for 8/9 years but maybe time for him to get a chance at a cup before he is 27 yrs old
Buy out Roussel or Beagle and maybe resign for less money like Stone did in Calgary.
Make as much room as possible for the expansion draft, there will be a chance for quick depth improvement for the bottom six.
Cap space goal of 40 million at the end of this season barring early trades for studs and 1rst round picks.
Use cap space to buy picks via a bad contract, Detroit, Toronto and Chicago have all given up top picks and players to make cap space, Benning has been giving up top picks and prospects to help other cup winning teams make cap space for players those teams deemed expendable.

Eriksson may be able to be bought out and save money next year but carry a 1 year 4 mil cap hit.
Ferland for sure should be bought out as his contract is not insured so money savings is up front.

This is not trading away all nor is it doing it all at once but surely over two years max, this year and next.

The expansion must be a priority to improve the depth of the team and maybe snag a late bloomer.

Not complete yet have to go

Click to read more...

 

[VanJack]

Voted 'the rebuild is half done' and it is.....but in order to get to the finish line, the Canucks are going to need new strategists in the executive booth.

As the awful contracts slowly lapse, the 'replacements' need to be hungry, depth players on affordable contracts. It's going to take a hockey ops department with a lot better handle on pro scouting and some experience in identifying these players and then acquiring them.

 

[kcunac]

some overlap in the half done and 2 year options.

This team has good pieces; Pettersson, Boeser, Miller, and Horvat up front, Hughes, Schmidt on D, and Demko in net. What we need is a better and less expensive supporting cast that actually give a s**t - like Tanev, Markstrom, and Stecher who we lost.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

The problem is when these bad contracts expire, Miller and Horvat will have one year left until being UFA, and be 30 and 28. Extending them may not be the best option. Trading them may be the best option, but Aqua would never allow it.

 

[Fatass]

The problem is when these bad contracts expire, Miller and Horvat will have one year left until being UFA, and be 30 and 28. Extending them may not be the best option. Trading them may be the best option, but Aqua would never allow it.

Trading Miller now, if the return is a younger right shot D, should definitely be done.

 

[MS]

Blowing it up is not an option. The team has to try moving forward.

It isn't something that you want to do, but we have to sacrifice some draft picks to move out bad contracts this summer in order to free up the room required for the required moves to move the team forward.

I suspect that if this team hires a real President with a real GM and an actual quality NHL head coach, things will turn around rather quickly. A fish rots from the head and this fish's head is exceptionally rotten.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

We’re not in bad shape but there’s a lot of future contingencies that will determine how the team performs going forward.

The team needs another top 6 winger if Pearson walks or Pod doesn’t pan out as a top 6 forward (or if Miller declines with age given his playstyle or doesn’t re-sign).

The team needs to rebuild their bottom 6. MacEwen and Motte are the only fixtures worth keeping. Hopefully at least one of Lind or Gadjovich can chip in here.

The team needs to rebuild half the defence. Rathbone and Juolevi and/or Woo can likely round out the bottom pairing, but we need replacements for Edler and Myers shouldn’t be seeing big minutes. Basically we need two top 4 dmen to pair with Hughes and Schmidt.

The team needs Demko to pan out as a bona fide #1 starter.

 

[Fatass]

Rebuilding to me means to build a core group, who are all near to the same age. What’s the core?
Goalie. Demko is in the correct age group
Three D Hughes is our only D (Bone looks like two)
Two centres Petey and Bo both fit
Two wingers Bess fits (expecting Podkolzin too)
So we need one more young D and a young winger.
This draft could get the D.
Miller trade could get the young winger.

Is that then a core who can develop together over the next years to be a contender?

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Blowing it up is not an option. The team has to try moving forward.

It isn't something that you want to do, but we have to sacrifice some draft picks to move out bad contracts this summer in order to free up the room required for the required moves to move the team forward.

I suspect that if this team hires a real President with a real GM and an actual quality NHL head coach, things will turn around rather quickly. A fish rots from the head and this fish's head is exceptionally rotten.

We absolutely need a real coach, and management. There are 3 options for management.

1) Wait until the bad contracts expire in 2 years. At that point Miller and Horvat will be UFA. Miller will be gone for sure. If we can resign Horvat, would it be a good idea to depending on money and term?

2) Agressively move out bad contracts. Go all in the time frame of the Miller and Horvat contracts. Try to add another piece or two that will make us a contender, and fill the team with cheap depth.

3) 2nd rebuild. Sell UFAs for picks. Look for a Miller and Horvat trade, but be patient and don't sell them cheaply. Getting a Sam Girard like prospect, and a first, maybe more would be a good haul for Horvat.

I think option 1 is the worst. We need to do either option 2 or 3 and fully commit to it. No half measures. Aqua will never allow option 3 though, so option 2 is the only option.

 

[bossram]

The problem is when these bad contracts expire, Miller and Horvat will have one year left until being UFA, and be 30 and 28. Extending them may not be the best option. Trading them may be the best option, but Aqua would never allow it.

Exactly. Once the dreck is gone (except for Myers...), the organization is looking at a crossroads anyway. Horvat and Miller will need new contracts (at significant raises) and Boeser will also need an extension the year prior. At Horvat/Miller's ages, unless we're true contenders (not likely), then extending probably isn't the best decision.

And if you're not extending some of your best players and the team isn't really competitive, where are you? The organization is basically forced to start another type of rebuild in 2 years.

I've said it before, and it sounds awful, but it's true: The Benning era has literally sapped a decade out of this organization, all for the chance to go "all-in" to the 2nd round last season.

 

[clay]

With the right front office in place, this team could absolutely become contenders immediately after the albatross contracts expire after next year. We have 4 legit gamers in our top 6 plus Hog and Pod expected to develop into solid contributors. The outlook on D looks solid with Hughes, Schmidt, Juolevi, Myers all here for the next few years barring trade/expansion draft and then Rathbone and Woo showing promise in the AHL. Demko is tracking well to be a legit top 10 starter. Add to this a top 10 pick in this year's draft that has a strong top 10 despite not having a clearcut elite #1 overall. Various needs (top 4 RHD,3rd line centre) can be addressed via free agency with the cap space that is opening up.

All of the above point to a core that can turn the page into cup contenders very quickly with the right game plan. The absolute certainty is that Jim Benning has proven he can't be trusted in free agency to do anything positive. He has done so much damage to this team on July 1st year after year after year. He needs to go.

 

[MS]

We absolutely need a real coach, and management. There are 3 options for management.

1) Wait until the bad contracts expire in 2 years. At that point Miller and Horvat will be UFA. Miller will be gone for sure. If we can resign Horvat, would it be a good idea to depending on money and term?

2) Agressively move out bad contracts. Go all in the time frame of the Miller and Horvat contracts. Try to add another piece or two that will make us a contender, and fill the team with cheap depth.

3) 2nd rebuild. Sell UFAs for picks. Look for a Miller and Horvat trade, but be patient and don't sell them cheaply. Getting a Sam Girard like prospect, and a first, maybe more would be a good haul for Horvat.

I think option 1 is the worst. We need to do either option 2 or 3 and fully commit to it. No half measures. Aqua will never allow option 3 though, so option 2 is the only option.

Agreed. Option 1 is definitely the worst. It accomplishes nothing and has no upside. It's basically just lazily conceding to mediocrity.

Option 3 really doesn't work for me either. I don't want to be Buffalo. I don't want to wait another 5 years for this team to play a playoff game. And I suspect that guys like Pettersson will try forcing their way out if we go that direction.

It will hurt like hell, but trading picks/prospects to clear the Eriksson/Roussel contracts is really the only way out that doesn't totally suck. Clear $10 million in cap space and suddenly you have some options. There is enough here to think you can turn things around if you have the freedom to make a few good moves.

The expansion draft should also be a major asset for this team if used properly. Benning will never manage, but hopefully there is a new GM and he can.

 

[bossram]

We absolutely need a real coach, and management. There are 3 options for management.

1) Wait until the bad contracts expire in 2 years. At that point Miller and Horvat will be UFA. Miller will be gone for sure. If we can resign Horvat, would it be a good idea to depending on money and term?

2) Agressively move out bad contracts. Go all in the time frame of the Miller and Horvat contracts. Try to add another piece or two that will make us a contender, and fill the team with cheap depth.

3) 2nd rebuild. Sell UFAs for picks. Look for a Miller and Horvat trade, but be patient and don't sell them cheaply. Getting a Sam Girard like prospect, and a first, maybe more would be a good haul for Horvat.

I think option 1 is the worst. We need to do either option 2 or 3 and fully commit to it. No half measures. Aqua will never allow option 3 though, so option 2 is the only option.

100% agreed. Option 1 is the worst, but most likely option. Ensures another few years of mediocrity.

Option 2 is the best option, but least likely. Benning is simply incapable of moving the anchor roster pieces he's brought in. He's shown time and again he doesn't have the requisite understanding of cap allocation or creativity to do so. He won't be able to get it done. And the organization can't wait for a new GM in the offseason to start. We need to start before this season's TDL. It's already too late.

Option 3 is all we're realistically left with. Though Aqua won't like it.

 

[MS]

100% agreed. Option 1 is the worst, but most likely option. Ensures another few years of mediocrity.

Option 2 is the best option, but least likely. Benning is simply incapable of moving the anchor roster pieces he's brought in. He's shown time and again he doesn't have the requisite understanding of cap allocation or creativity to do so. He won't be able to get it done. And the organization can't wait for a new GM in the offseason to start. We need to start before this season's TDL. It's already too late.

Option 3 is all we're realistically left with. Though Aqua won't like it.

If Benning stays, we're very obviously doing (1). Like, you can pretty much carve it in stone.

If we bring in actual management, then (2) becomes an option.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

The reality is, barring some unforeseen developments, the Canucks will not be competing for the cup for 2-3 more seasons. It makes sense to trade players like Miller and anybody older than him for high picks and prospects who will be on the upwards trajectory in 2-3 years.

 

[bossram]

With the right front office in place, this team could absolutely become contenders immediately after the albatross contracts expire after next year. We have 4 legit gamers in our top 6 plus Hog and Pod expected to develop into solid contributors. The outlook on D looks solid with Hughes, Schmidt, Juolevi, Myers all here for the next few years barring trade/expansion draft and then Rathbone and Woo showing promise in the AHL. Demko is tracking well to be a legit top 10 starter. Add to this a top 10 pick in this year's draft that has a strong top 10 despite not having a clearcut elite #1 overall. Various needs (top 4 RHD,3rd line centre) can be addressed via free agency with the cap space that is opening up.

All of the above point to a core that can turn the page into cup contenders very quickly with the right game plan. The absolute certainty is that Jim Benning has proven he can't be trusted in free agency to do anything positive. He has done so much damage to this team on July 1st year after year after year. He needs to go.

It's just not particularly realistic. It's the kind of thinking that's landed us in this mess:

"If everything comes up our way, and all of our top prospects develop to their potential, we're set!"

Well, yah, we would be. But so would any team. It's not realistic to think everything is going to come up Aces for us. Sure, if Rathbone, OJ, and Woo all become quality NHLers, the D is in good shape. But expecting three non-A+ tier prospects to be quality roster players is a big ask. I am a huge believer in Hoglander and Podz. But to solidify the forward group, you need them to reach their potential, then integrate them into a forward core where all of Petey, Horvat, Boeser, Miller, and Hoglander will need significant raises in the next two years. Is it realistic we can afford them all? And face no performance decline from Horvat and Miller?

ALL of that needs to happen, in addition to making smart free-agent decisions to fill out the bottom of the roster, in order for the team to get to contender status in two years. Is that really going to happen?

 

[bossram]

If Benning stays, we're very obviously doing (1). Like, you can pretty much carve it in stone.

If we bring in actual management, then (2) becomes an option.

The issue is we need to start now, not in the offseason when draft picks come at a higher premium. Benning is sticking around the full season, I think it's safe to assume. So any positive change won't happen until the offseason. This TDL is critical to shuffle away some fringe roster pieces, and Benning is 100% the wrong person to do that.

 

[MS]

The issue is we need to start now, not in the offseason when draft picks come at a higher premium. Benning is sticking around the full season, I think it's safe to assume. So any positive change won't happen until the offseason. This TDL is critical to shuffle away some fringe roster pieces, and Benning is 100% the wrong person to do that.

Oh, 100%. Benning will be here for the deadline and nothing substantial will happen.

We should be trying everything possible to trade Pearson but based on the IMac shilling they have no interest in that.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

I don't think I would "blow it up." Miller has issues and I would flip him for a young, right shot, blue-chip defenseman. It fills a big hole in the organization. And it helps realign our window with the terrible contracts that are currently holding us back. Most of the core is young enough that we can still compete for a number of years with Horvat being the elder statesman.

 

[DustyMartellaughs]

“If the rebuild is half done that means the team will win 24 games! “

Benning

 

[I am toxic]

There never was a rebuild. Never. It never happened.

Sucking and being gifted high draft picks from the league is not a rebuild. It's just sucking.

Don't get fooled by propaganda that is spewed so often that some may take fantasy for reality.

There. Never. Was. A. Rebuild.

Never.

Having said that, now is the time to

1) undo the worst of Weisbrod/Benning mistakes,
2) identify the core (easy: Hughes, Petey, Boeser; harder: Demko, Horvat [timing wise]),
3) identify their window to compete is (easy: when the core is in their mid to late 20's) and
4) began disposing/acquiring assets that will add to/complement the core, cost as little cap as possible, and will peak in utility during the window to compete

 

[clay]

It's just not particularly realistic. It's the kind of thinking that's landed us in this mess:

"If everything comes up our way, and all of our top prospects develop to their potential, we're set!"

Well, yah, we would be. But so would any team. It's not realistic to think everything is going to come up Aces for us. Sure, if Rathbone, OJ, and Woo all become quality NHLers, the D is in good shape. But expecting three non-A+ tier prospects to be quality roster players is a big ask. I am a huge believer in Hoglander and Podz. But to solidify the forward group, you need them to reach their potential, then integrate them into a forward core where all of Petey, Horvat, Boeser, Miller, and Hoglander will need significant raises in the next two years. Is it realistic we can afford them all? And face no performance decline from Horvat and Miller?

ALL of that needs to happen, in addition to making smart free-agent decisions to fill out the bottom of the roster, in order for the team to get to contender status in two years. Is that really going to happen?

I don't agree with the bolded at all. For example, even if one of Juolevi, Rathbone, and Woo develops into a legit top 4 D, that leaves us with Hughes, Schmidt, Myers, and Juolevi/Rathbone/Woo as our top 4 which is a legit top 4 core (contrary to some people on here insisting Myers is a bottom pairing D-man). This isn't even taking into account if all of them bust (highly, highly unlikely) and we are able to address the need through free agency next year where Seth Jones, Parayko, Pulock, Risotlainen, Leddy, Lindholm, Rielly, Klinberg, Fox, among others, are all free agents. Sure, like you've said before, some players won't make it to free agency, but next year is looking like it will potentially be the most stacked free agent D class ever.

Regarding the forward group, I'm not sure how you can argue the team is in bad shape looking forward. We have 4 legit top 6 players that would be top 6 on any team in the league with two very promising wingers in Hog and Pod to supplement this group. I don't see Horvat walking as captain of the team and if Miller walks, it's very likely one of Hog or Pod will have developed into a stud by then to replace him.

Yes, some things have to hit, but by no means does everything have to go right for this team to be a top tier team again.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

How bout change the management first

 

[MS]

I don't agree with the bolded at all. For example, even if one of Juolevi, Rathbone, and Woo develops into a legit top 4 D, that leaves us with Hughes, Schmidt, Myers, and Juolevi/Rathbone/Woo as our top 4 which is a legit top 4 core (contrary to some people on here insisting Myers is a bottom pairing D-man). This isn't even taking into account if all of them bust (highly, highly unlikely) and we are able to address the need through free agency next year where Seth Jones, Parayko, Pulock, Risotlainen, Leddy, Lindholm, Rielly, Klinberg, Fox, among others, are all free agents. Sure, like you've said before, some players won't make it to free agency, but next year is looking like it will potentially be the most stacked free agent D class ever.

Regarding the forward group, I'm not sure how you can argue the team is in bad shape looking forward. We have 4 legit top 6 players that would be top 6 on any team in the league with two very promising wingers in Hog and Pod to supplement this group. I don't see Horvat walking as captain of the team and if Miller walks, it's very likely one of Hog or Pod will have developed into a stud by then to replace him.

Yes, some things have to hit, but by no means does everything have to go right for this team to be a top tier team again.

Yeah.

We have the pieces up front. Demko should at least be an average starter. We need to rebuild the bottom-6 (and honestly, that shouldn't be that difficult outside of finding a solid #3 center) and the biggest thing will be making changes to the blueline. And this is why we need to ship out some contracts, so we can make those blueline moves that need to happen. One quality UFA signing of a Parayko/Pulock/Lindholm type guy for his age 28-32 years would change everything.

I wouldn't have said this a week ago, but based on his recent performances (plus team needs) I wouldn't be shocked if we see Jett Woo on this team next season. His game last night was legitimately impressive and I've been very pleasantly surprised (and close to shocked) at how well he's adapted to the AHL defensively. He looks better 8 games into his career at age 20 than a guy like Guillaume Brisebois ever looked after 3-4 years at that level.

 

[bossram]

I don't agree with the bolded at all. For example, even if one of Juolevi, Rathbone, and Woo develops into a legit top 4 D, that leaves us with Hughes, Schmidt, Myers, and Juolevi/Rathbone/Woo as our top 4 which is a legit top 4 core (contrary to some people on here insisting Myers is a bottom pairing D-man). This isn't even taking into account if all of them bust (highly, highly unlikely) and we are able to address the need through free agency next year where Seth Jones, Parayko, Pulock, Risotlainen, Leddy, Lindholm, Rielly, Klinberg, Fox, among others, are all free agents. Sure, like you've said before, some players won't make it to free agency, but next year is looking like it will potentially be the most stacked free agent D class ever.

Regarding the forward group, I'm not sure how you can argue the team is in bad shape looking forward. We have 4 legit top 6 players that would be top 6 on any team in the league with two very promising wingers in Hog and Pod to supplement this group. I don't see Horvat walking as captain of the team and if Miller walks, it's very likely one of Hog or Pod will have developed into a stud by then to replace him.

Yes, some things have to hit, but by no means does everything have to go right for this team to be a top tier team again.

Well, he should be. If you want to have a contending team, you can't be fielding Myers in your top-four. He's really not good.

Some of the guys you listed will be RFA, which further decreases the likelihood of adding them. And say we do add a Pulock (absolutely the best fit on that list), you have to factor in the large cap allocation required.

Which brings us to the forward corps. It's not that we're in bad situation up front (I literally said I'm a huge believer in Hoglander/Podz), but some key decision will have to be made on raises to nearly the entire top-six. Then if you take those raises, add in the high-value defenseman, we're looking at a large increase in cap allocation to the top of the lineup. Now, if we're going to spend, definitely better to do it on top-of-the-lineup pieces, but can we afford all of Petey, Brock, Hughes, UFA defenseman, Miller, Horvat, making at least $6 million (and likely higher for some)? And factor in a raise to Hoglander, raise to OJ if you're penicilling him in...and then you need to fill out the rest of the roster.

It's a tough ask for the new GM.