Online Series: Tiger King (Netflix)
- Thread starter JetsWillFly4Ever
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bleedblue1223
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- Jan 21, 2011
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I don't think it would be that different. Blackfish wasn't just about Orca abuse, it also showed how SeaWorld and other parks were corrupt and didn't prepare their trainers/employees either. They were just more on the corporate greed side instead of greed from drug addicts and criminals. I don't think showing more of the abuse that occurred would've made it any less entertaining.
hb12xchamps
Registered User
Bud it isn't meant to be an insightful doc about the Tigers. It just isn't. If you went in expecting that, I can see why you're disappointed. You didn't enjoy it as much as others. To each their own.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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Perhaps they didn't go into more animal abuse because they didn't observe it. Why is there an assumption that things were a lot worse than what we saw? That seems like seeking confirmation rather than information. Even if there's more footage that could be included to make the zoos look bad, there's surely more that would make them look good, as well. You can't include all of it, and cherrypicking the bad and presenting it out of context isn't accuracy; it's propaganda. I wouldn't have watched this series if it had been one sided like Blackfish. Instead, it showed the good and the bad, arguments for private zoos and arguments against them, and didn't appear to have an agenda for either side. The filmmakers didn't even know anything about the subject and just stumbled into it while making a different kind of documentary, so they couldn't have had an agenda. I, for one, am more willing to trust the accuracy of it for that reason and the fact that it lets the viewer make up his/her own mind than if it had been part of a campaign against the practice.
Just finished watching the whole season...
A very intriguing and incredibly stranger than fiction story about a few "tiger zoo/rescue park" owners in the mid-south and south eastern parts of the United States. It has great entertainment value, especially considering we live in this day and age of flooded and overly scripted reality shows. Lots of twists and turns and real drama throughout. Kudos to someone for thinking of and making this a series.
Conversational points for me after watching this (having not read any previous posts in this thread, sorry if I repeat anything or ask anything that has already been answered):
- The under investigation and poor investigation steps of Carol Baskin's husbands disappearance is befuddling. Who gains from him disappearing? He wasn't found in Costa Rica, nor did any known monetary possessions of his disappear when he disappeared(making Costa Rica/out of state disappearance unlikely). Carol probably killed him, especially given her most previously documented behavior before he disappeared. Not to mention, the whole relationship started because he was a 20years+ older than her shoulder to lean on (at minimum) with tons of cash/luxuries and she gave up the cookie on the first night.
Separate from that, Carole Baskin's knew husband is the definition of a submissive. Took here last name, picture of him wearing a leash for her, I don't know why or how he got into the picture, but I'm curious. Carole Baskin is clearly insane (albeit a lot of them are somewhat insane in this).
-Joe Exotic 1000% had accessories to "plotting a murder" at minimum. Immunity or not, Lowe and Glover not getting charges yet is odd, even if the feds say Lowe is getting something bigger coming to him. In jest or not, Exotic thought out killing this women and explained different ways in which he'd do it, definitely earned his time. Charges were...murder for hire plot, there must have been enough evidence for even if the series makes the area a little gray, killing the 5 tigers was for non-euthanization purposes I assume, obviously illegal trafficking animals, and other stuff too but that may have only been fine/misdemeanor worthy(?). 22years in jail right now, but hey, if Exotic becomes a whistleblower for PETA among other things, that sentence could drop more, and if he gets out early for good behavior, wouldn't surprise me if the guy spends 5years or less in jail. What about an appeal? I'm just rambling.
-Did Joe Exotic's workers really dislike him or were they FBI scared/threatened into testifying and showing "hate" and talking against him at trial? Honestly, I am not sure. On one end, he spoiled his ex-husband and let him continue to work for him after knocking up a coworker, that relationship didn't appear to be on bad terms. The woman who lost her arm to a tiger never pressed charges and continued to work for him after that incident. The head zookeeper honestly was the only one from start to finish that seemingly had reservations about Joe Exotic's "managing" style. Everyone else seemed to like Joe Exotic at minimum from his charisma to him putting food on their table/money in their pocket to them being "business partners" with him.
Yeah, there really aren't any truly likable people in this series, and almost everyone in this series has a motive for what or why they do things from a paycheck/survival to ego/fame to money to power to hatebreeding, but it's so entertaining and thought provoking. That said, I can feel that the vast majority of them all love(d) these animals that they worked with, especially Joe Exotic. Which leads this to also be a a sad tale of how power/money/greed can change someone and/or bring out their true nature.
Although Carole Baskin to me just comes off as 1000% crazy from origin to middle to ending here. Carole Baskin, as way too many animal activists are, is a hatebreeder/hatemonger. The way she "used Joe Exotic" to target people for more likes and more money is ridiculous and thought bankrupting Joe Exotic was the way to helping his animals in his zoo. Beyond crazy. She destroyed Joe Exotic's business and ruined his life, I don't blame the man for wanting to and thinking of killing her. What she did didn't help 1 animal on his zoo, it just destroyed his life, worsened the lives of those working at the zoo, and worst of all(from her perspective a least) worsened the quality of life for those animals living in that zoo. As Joe Exotic's campaign manager put it best, this is about helping an endangered species in the wild and protecting them. "Captivity" breeding and showing to the public? Not really that bad. Obviously the killing for non-necessary euthanization purposes and gray area of mistreatment is another topic though. If you have all seen or know how circus/zoo/pet animals are trained and treated, and consider someone dealing with 300-500lb animals, I believe the gray area grows even wider on an ethical and tactical spectrum given the danger of it. That in itself is an interesting point of discussion. But to me, Baskin and Lowe are the 2 worst humans in this series, and I think the #1 award goes to Baskin. While Lowe is a conman, thief, "adulterer", "physical abuser", debt ridden, and evil sob, he hasn't turned countless of his followers into hating other people/zoo keepers they know nothing about, ruining the lives of those people and their workers, and worst of all(from her perspective) not even helping but actually hurting the animals "she supposedly is trying to save". On top of that, taking millions of dollars a year in donations for her "non profit" from those followers she hatebreeds, while her and her husband take home over $117k a year total in salaries from those donations. End rant, and there is more that I can talk about besides this on this series. Oddly enough, Joe Exotic with the right songwriter and producer could have had a career in music(he's got a great voice).
A very intriguing and incredibly stranger than fiction story about a few "tiger zoo/rescue park" owners in the mid-south and south eastern parts of the United States. It has great entertainment value, especially considering we live in this day and age of flooded and overly scripted reality shows. Lots of twists and turns and real drama throughout. Kudos to someone for thinking of and making this a series.
Conversational points for me after watching this (having not read any previous posts in this thread, sorry if I repeat anything or ask anything that has already been answered):
- The under investigation and poor investigation steps of Carol Baskin's husbands disappearance is befuddling. Who gains from him disappearing? He wasn't found in Costa Rica, nor did any known monetary possessions of his disappear when he disappeared(making Costa Rica/out of state disappearance unlikely). Carol probably killed him, especially given her most previously documented behavior before he disappeared. Not to mention, the whole relationship started because he was a 20years+ older than her shoulder to lean on (at minimum) with tons of cash/luxuries and she gave up the cookie on the first night.
Separate from that, Carole Baskin's knew husband is the definition of a submissive. Took here last name, picture of him wearing a leash for her, I don't know why or how he got into the picture, but I'm curious. Carole Baskin is clearly insane (albeit a lot of them are somewhat insane in this).
-Joe Exotic 1000% had accessories to "plotting a murder" at minimum. Immunity or not, Lowe and Glover not getting charges yet is odd, even if the feds say Lowe is getting something bigger coming to him. In jest or not, Exotic thought out killing this women and explained different ways in which he'd do it, definitely earned his time. Charges were...murder for hire plot, there must have been enough evidence for even if the series makes the area a little gray, killing the 5 tigers was for non-euthanization purposes I assume, obviously illegal trafficking animals, and other stuff too but that may have only been fine/misdemeanor worthy(?). 22years in jail right now, but hey, if Exotic becomes a whistleblower for PETA among other things, that sentence could drop more, and if he gets out early for good behavior, wouldn't surprise me if the guy spends 5years or less in jail. What about an appeal? I'm just rambling.
-Did Joe Exotic's workers really dislike him or were they FBI scared/threatened into testifying and showing "hate" and talking against him at trial? Honestly, I am not sure. On one end, he spoiled his ex-husband and let him continue to work for him after knocking up a coworker, that relationship didn't appear to be on bad terms. The woman who lost her arm to a tiger never pressed charges and continued to work for him after that incident. The head zookeeper honestly was the only one from start to finish that seemingly had reservations about Joe Exotic's "managing" style. Everyone else seemed to like Joe Exotic at minimum from his charisma to him putting food on their table/money in their pocket to them being "business partners" with him.
Yeah, there really aren't any truly likable people in this series, and almost everyone in this series has a motive for what or why they do things from a paycheck/survival to ego/fame to money to power to hatebreeding, but it's so entertaining and thought provoking. That said, I can feel that the vast majority of them all love(d) these animals that they worked with, especially Joe Exotic. Which leads this to also be a a sad tale of how power/money/greed can change someone and/or bring out their true nature.
Although Carole Baskin to me just comes off as 1000% crazy from origin to middle to ending here. Carole Baskin, as way too many animal activists are, is a hatebreeder/hatemonger. The way she "used Joe Exotic" to target people for more likes and more money is ridiculous and thought bankrupting Joe Exotic was the way to helping his animals in his zoo. Beyond crazy. She destroyed Joe Exotic's business and ruined his life, I don't blame the man for wanting to and thinking of killing her. What she did didn't help 1 animal on his zoo, it just destroyed his life, worsened the lives of those working at the zoo, and worst of all(from her perspective a least) worsened the quality of life for those animals living in that zoo. As Joe Exotic's campaign manager put it best, this is about helping an endangered species in the wild and protecting them. "Captivity" breeding and showing to the public? Not really that bad. Obviously the killing for non-necessary euthanization purposes and gray area of mistreatment is another topic though. If you have all seen or know how circus/zoo/pet animals are trained and treated, and consider someone dealing with 300-500lb animals, I believe the gray area grows even wider on an ethical and tactical spectrum given the danger of it. That in itself is an interesting point of discussion. But to me, Baskin and Lowe are the 2 worst humans in this series, and I think the #1 award goes to Baskin. While Lowe is a conman, thief, "adulterer", "physical abuser", debt ridden, and evil sob, he hasn't turned countless of his followers into hating other people/zoo keepers they know nothing about, ruining the lives of those people and their workers, and worst of all(from her perspective) not even helping but actually hurting the animals "she supposedly is trying to save". On top of that, taking millions of dollars a year in donations for her "non profit" from those followers she hatebreeds, while her and her husband take home over $117k a year total in salaries from those donations. End rant, and there is more that I can talk about besides this on this series. Oddly enough, Joe Exotic with the right songwriter and producer could have had a career in music(he's got a great voice).
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
I would assume that while they got filmed and interviewed a ton of people the only one they got in depth daily insight into was Joe Exotic's zoo. In other words with everyone else even if there was something their they all had their best foot forward when filmmakers were filming, and at Joe's zoo you can pretty much take at face value - a rural zoo run by a crazy redneck who loves his animals.
Actually, she took his last name of Baskin. She was Carole Lewis before, I think from her marriage to the fellow that she presumably fed to the tigers. I remember that because I noted to myself that it sounded like the reverse of author Lewis Carroll. You could still be right about their relationship, though. I, personally, got a Prince Philip (Queen Elizabeth's husband) vibe from him, which was likely aided by the fact that he also looks a bit like Prince Charles.
That was my point. Since they were around Joe's zoo so much and we can take it at face value, there's not much reason to assume that the conditions were worse than what we saw. It's also a rural, cash-strapped zoo run by a crazy dude and a staff with few qualifications, so you might expect it to be one of the worse case environments for big cats, yet it didn't seem that bad. It could've definitely been better, but the staff clearly loved the cats and weren't cruel to them or neglectful. Even Carole, with all of the time that she had in front of the camera, didn't use much of it to condemn the operation of the zoo (she was more against the principle of zoos and opposed to the breeding and selling), especially because her
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Thats why you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, do drugs... They all need to rot in jail for a bit. Feel so bad for Lowes kid and all the innocent animals. Depressing series that really wasnt that funny, just sad.
My apologies, good catch. I am very curious of his background and what he gets out of this.
chicagoskycam
Land of #1 Overall Picks
They had so much more footage on Joe Exotic because Rick Kirkman was already filming Joe and crew for a reality series, this was in exchange for helping out with Joe's Youtube series.
They didn't have 24/7 coverage on the other zoos and you could see how careful Antle was with what they showed at his park.
evolutionbaby
Registered User
- Jan 7, 2012
- 820
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Why isn’t anyone talking about when Kelsey (I think...) got her arm bit off and Joe showed up in an EMS jacket. That had me rolling on the floor.
A couple questions...
How are these zoos legal?
Do tigers really only cost a couple grand?
Without getting too political...these are American voters and you can damn well bet they vote. A BIG reason why America is where it is.
A couple questions...
How are these zoos legal?
Do tigers really only cost a couple grand?
Without getting too political...these are American voters and you can damn well bet they vote. A BIG reason why America is where it is.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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Why are you assuming they vote, turnout in Presidential elections tends to be just over 50%. Every country has people like this, it's called drug addicts.
It depends on states and localities, but private zoos have been a thing and people like Baskin will claim they are rescues and sanctuaries, although there are genuine good sanctuaries out there.
Black market can be cheaper than you think. Crazy to think a tiger can cost the same as a puppy though.
chicagoskycam
Land of #1 Overall Picks
Apparently some States have loose regulations for what is considered a zoo but when I think about the major zoos in the U.S., they are not much better. You have animals accustomed to roaming miles locked in a pen so people can view them.
I guess they only do cost a couple of grand but I imagine there is a limited market for them and the cost to care for a Tiger far exceeds the initial purchase price. That's why these guys are forced to parade them in front of people.
Well, they're legal because no one has made a good enough argument for them being illegal. The burden of proof is on the side wanting to eliminate them. It's like "innocent until proven guilty," except that things are legal until proven why they should be made illegal.
America cherishes its freedom and part of that is being allowed to do what you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone or anything. No one is being hurt here (except for a few in the line of work, like Kelsey), so the real question is "are the tigers being hurt?" From what we see from this series, they don't seem to be. They could maybe have more space, but they're not being abused or neglected.
This leads to the next question: would tigers be hurt more if this practice were to continue or if it were to end? I believe that the stat that the series gave is that there are 5,000-10,000 tigers in captivity and 4,000 in the wild. I imagine that a lot of people look at that, freak out that that number in captivity is way too high and think that reducing it is the answer, but they ought to freak out that the number in the wild is so low. Greatly reducing the number of tigers in captivity isn't going to help the number in the wild any. It's just going to greatly reduce the total tiger population. Whether we like it or not, zoos (private and public) and their breeding of tigers are helping to keep the tiger population up. I imagine that that's a major factor that comes up whenever anyone, like Carole, proposes making private zoos illegal.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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One problem is different laws and regulations among states and localities and lack of oversight to really evaluate each one on a deeper level. Rules are not consistent, like when you see the cages that Carole's animals were in seemed a lot worse than others. Officials can't really know if animals are illegally killed. The enforcement of these things usually doesn't have the highest of funding either.
Yeah, the wild vs captivity is apples and oranges. Once an animal is in any sort of captivity, that's pretty much where they have to be. Maybe a solution is a "wild" type of space that is fenced and protected, but allows the animals more of a regular life. I know there is stuff going on to make something like that for orcas, not ready yet though. Still best to look at them as separate populations and try to naturally increase the tiger population in the wild, but be mindful of negative consequences. You don't want to ruin existing ecosystems by introducing tigers to them, like we've done with other predators.
Deadpool8812
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- Feb 10, 2018
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Lowe is so messed up. I feel so bad for his baby mamma and even more so for their child. The comment he made about her getting into the gym ASAP after she has the baby...if I said that to my wife, she would have rightfully beaten the shit out of me
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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I mean, she chose to be with him, I just feel bad for the kid. I guess the natural plot twist for this show would be that she's being held against her will though.
chicagoskycam
Land of #1 Overall Picks
There is supposed to be another episode dropping soon. I'm curious to what Carol's life has been like since the Doc came out, she seems more hated than Joe.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
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Yeah, she came out of this as a villain, they all pretty much did, but I think she's the one that was least aware of that possibility happening. I think all the others could at least understand why they were viewed as a villain, but maybe Doc Antle is with Carol in that category too.
Deadpool8812
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- Feb 10, 2018
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True, but I'm sure there's an underlying reason as to why she would be with him
chicagoskycam
Land of #1 Overall Picks
Definitely this. Some people know they're crazy and hide it a bit, but I don't know if Carol knows she is and she definitely doesn't hide it at all.
Also had a discussion with a friend about Tiger King about Carol. Another HUGE red flag about her killing her husband aside from everything mentioned, they didn't show her once trying to hire a private investigator or tracker to look for the guy, even with his millions at her disposal. Instead, (as repeated) she stole the guy's will(s) and forged them the day after he was reported missing. I will be incredibly surprised if she didn't kill him.
This is part of it. Part of it is the open relationship thing that might keep them together. Part of it is he is able to con/convince enough people to acquire "cool"/"expensive" crap: The ferrari, the tiger zoo, etc.
That said, I have a feeling he'll end up in jail in the next few years or someone will kill/hurt him bad for screwing them over.
Gil Gunderson
Registered User
Scandale du Jour
JordanStaal#1Fan
I just finished it.
There is not a single person who ends up looking good in this.
All of them are scumbags or, at best, total idiots.
Jeff Lowe gotta be the worst piece of shit ever. Wow.
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