Thoughts on the rebuild?

[JD1]

A lot of this is about trust. I mean for me personally at this point ..I try to piece it together based on what they say and what they do .. but I have just learned not to buy into what they say too much. I don't trust either one of them (Melnyk, Dorion) .. Especially Dorion.. I think that off the cuff response from Melnyk was closer to the truth , but Dorion was singing a different song all together.. so who knows. Either way I don't trust them to be straight up, transparent and truthful. So whatever they say has to be questioned in my view. I think some of the push back in these threads comes from people who trust them a fair bit more than I do. I look at the actions and the end results and its not a pretty picture at all.

There's certainly some validity to what you're saying here

One of the things i do for a living is analyze large swaths of information and draw inferences and where possible conclusions from the data. At times it's not easy to do because what can be inferred from the data can conflict with widely held perceptions

Back to this board. There is, at times deserevedly so, pretty wide spread anti establishment sentiment towards the franchise. It doesn't matter what is said or done, it's wrong and the team should have done the opposite.

There's a ton of stuff here where the conclusions drawn from information shouldn't be drawn.

One thing that is extraordinarily obvious is PD is a bad communicator. Every word that comes from him is grabbed on to and analyzed against historical statements. Sometimes it gets a little over the top. The man might be a terrible communicator but it's pretty damn naive to think they didn't have many different scenarios based on who signed and who didn't.

I think Melnyk's off the cuff comment "all part of the plan" was true....but Stone not signing would have been one of how many plans?

Interpreting that comment as the ONLY plan isn't really a logical inference.

What he should have said was something to the effect "Mark Stone not re-signing was one of many scenarios that we planned for"

Which would have matched the comms more closely to reality

 

[JD1]

Then why say, when asked about the Stone trade, does he say they were planning for it "for a long time"?

Because they were planning it for a long time?

Do you think they don't have a white board that contains a "stone won't sign" scenario?

You're a smart man Bonk. But if you want to die on that particular hill do so knowing you're dying due to your own biased lens

 

[JD1]

Wouldn't it equally greasy for the org to string us along if we use your logic?

Mark Stone didn't string anyone along the writing was in the wall when he signed a one year deal taking him to UFA years.

I suppose it would be if he told the org last summer no way no how was he signing.

I've never read anything that suggests that was the case

 

[BondraTime]

I suppose it would be if he told the org last summer no way no how was he signing.

I've never read anything that suggests that was the case

I think signing a 1 year deal is all that our management should have needed.

Obviously we don't know what was said behind closed doors, but a 1 year deal straight to UFA is all they should have needed.

If I'm offering big money (as we apparently were) and the guy is insistent on a 1 year deal, then I understand what to expect and adjust my agenda to maximize his return (personally not happy with the return, but that's another story).

Seemed obvious to me what was going on since the summer. If you're able to sign guys, and they won't sign, they aren't going to sign 6 months later, especially with the gong show that has been going on.

 

[JD1]

I think signing a 1 year deal is all that our management should have needed.

Obviously we don't know what was said behind closed doors, but a 1 year deal straight to UFA is all they should have needed.

If I'm offering big money (as we apparently were) and the guy is insistent on a 1 year deal, then I understand what to expect and adjust my agenda to maximize his return (personally not happy with the return, but that's another story).

Seemed obvious to me what was going on since the summer. If you're able to sign guys, and they won't sign, they aren't going to sign 6 months later, especially with the gong show that has been going on.

Both sides said they were close to signing long term last summer.

If Stone was telling them privately " no way no how" then yes they should have moved hi last summer but idk that is where they were last summer.

 

[JD1]

I think signing a 1 year deal is all that our management should have needed.

Obviously we don't know what was said behind closed doors, but a 1 year deal straight to UFA is all they should have needed.

If I'm offering big money (as we apparently were) and the guy is insistent on a 1 year deal, then I understand what to expect and adjust my agenda to maximize his return (personally not happy with the return, but that's another story).

Seemed obvious to me what was going on since the summer. If you're able to sign guys, and they won't sign, they aren't going to sign 6 months later, especially with the gong show that has been going on.

This is from early January

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nh...e-hopeful-of-sticking-with-senators-1.4963932

Stone seems to be saying he hoped to stay. Was he telling them something different in private? We don't know.

There's a lot of quotes out there from July's arbitration to the TDL where he publicly indicated he wanted to stay.

As i said in response to @BatherSeason it'd be pretty greasy to publicly and privately tell the team you want to stay but know in your own mind "no way"

 

[BondraTime]

Both sides said they were close to signing long term last summer.

If Stone was telling them privately " no way no how" then yes they should have moved hi last summer but idk that is where they were last summer.

Yeah that's where I disagree. If you're close to a contract extension, you don't sign a 1 year contract, arbitration or not. You get the long term done.

If a player is "close" to signing long term, you don't need to use the next 6 months to try and convince him to stay as we apparently did. That is terrible, terrible foresight, at best.

If you can't get a guy who is a UFA to be signed, and your team was as poorly built as the Sens were, you can't go into a season with the hope that something changes on Stones end.

As I said, as soon as they discovered Stone would not sign a long term deal at their supposed "fair offer" he should have been moved. To me, that should have been this summer when they could not work out more than a deal straight to UFA.

I'm not going to get into the team trading Karlsson/Hoffman/etc. and expecting the UFA's to want to stick around.

The Sens shot themseleves in the leg over and over and tried to use a bandaid to cover it up, and ended up with gangrene.

 

[BondraTime]

This is from early January

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nh...e-hopeful-of-sticking-with-senators-1.4963932

Stone seems to be saying he hoped to stay. Was he telling them something different in private? We don't know.

There's a lot of quotes out there from July's arbitration to the TDL where he publicly indicated he wanted to stay.

As i said in response to @BatherSeason it'd be pretty greasy to publicly and privately tell the team you want to stay but know in your own mind "no way"

The team needs to take things players and agents say with a grain of salt. Actions, not words. That's how you get Tavares'd.

If you want to stay, as we want you too, what do you want? We will either make it happen or we will have to trade you as we can't meet those needs.

Instead, something that seemed, at least to me, very obvious, got dragged until the trade deadline.

 

[JD1]

The team needs to take things players and agents say with a grain of salt. Actions, not words. That's how you get Tavares'd.

If you want to stay, as we want you too, what do you want? We will either make it happen or we will have to trade you as we can't meet those needs.

Instead, something that seemed, at least to me, very obvious, got dragged until the trade deadline.

The difference though is they didn't get Tavares'd. All 3 were told it was a sign or trade.

With EK i think both sides wanted to move on and that involved a lot of spinning.

With Duchene and Stone i think the team legit wanted to keep them and it didn't happen

Things have been pretty f***ed up here for a few years. I fully understand guys not wanting to sign. Hopefully with our young roster where we have player control by the time we face a future round of having to sign high profile players that have control, the franchise will be perceived differently

 

[Sens]

If the Sens organization was serous about the offers then they clearly have money and there is no reason to go bargain bin shopping on a President and a Coach

 

[BondraTime]

The difference though is they didn't get Tavares'd. All 3 were told it was a sign or trade.

With EK i think both sides wanted to move on and that involved a lot of spinning.

With Duchene and Stone i think the team legit wanted to keep them and it didn't happen

Things have been pretty ****ed up here for a few years. I fully understand guys not wanting to sign. Hopefully with our young roster where we have player control by the time we face a future round of having to sign high profile players that have control, the franchise will be perceived differently

I know we never got Tavares'd, that was the point I was making. If they wanted to sign, they would have signed. Being strung along by listening to the player/agentspeak will get them where they ended up, at the trade deadline without a contract. As soon as the 1 year deal was signed, and Duchene went the summer without an extention, that should have been understood as to what was going to happen, nothing they do will change their minds.

I agree, the players would/should not want to sign their UFA years away here. The team should have understood that the players would not want to sign, they had been using the word "rebuild" as much as possible. The first thing Duchene said, word for word, is I couldn't go through a rebuild again. Why should anyone be surprised that Duchene had 0 intentions of staying, why did the Sens brass seem to think that he'd want to stay as a leader of their declared rebuild, as they publicly anointed him?

Stone watched as their top goal scorer and franchises best player was traded. It had been an absolute circus here. Nothing would lead anyone to think that the team could be perceived in a positive light by a potential UFA money wise, ownershipwise, talentwise, management wsie.

It's as if they just ignored everything that pointed to very clear direction it was headed.

I know myself at least, and I know it's only a personal opinion and I know my opinion has as little/much validity as anyone else's, had absolutely no thoughts or faith that either Stone or Duchene had any intention of stay as soon as Stone signed a 1 year deal. No soundbites from either side throughout the year changed that whatsoever.

 

[Back in Black]

At least it's a full-on rebuild. I've been a fan this team has never torn it down like it has the past 2 years.

Did the same after the 2007 Playoff run, same owner, same results.

 

[Sensinitis]

Did the same after the 2007 Playoff run, same owner, same results.

Spezza, Alfie, Phillips, Neil, etc were still on the team. That’s not a full rebuild...

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Spezza, Alfie, Phillips, Neil, etc were still on the team. That’s not a full rebuild...

We've never had a full rebuild.

What we are doing right now is a teardown. Be as cheap as possible, for as long as possible.

 

[Benttheknee]

My thoughts are pretty simple. The Sens can only get enough high end talent if they get lucky with drafting and you don't rely on luck to become a SC contender. In short, this rebuild, with Chabot and Tkachuk as the start of the rebuild will, more likely that not, end up with a team that can get into the playoffs for a few years but will never be more than an outside threat. Pretty much the same as the 2011 rebuild effort.

As for the timeline. My guess is that Spring of 2022 is the earliest possible playoff date, possibly a year later.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

To me the writing was on the wall for Duchene. Moving Karlsson and Hoffman and not shoring up the team sealed the deal. He wanted to be part of playoff hockey. He did not want to be on a rebuilding team. Stone not signing beyond the 1 year is also a very good indication and that was when Karlsson was still here although that writing was on the wall as well.

So.. "The plan" or one of them was to sign one or both of these guys , hoping they'd stay to lead the rebuild. Another tough losing season , not a lot of close high end depth to be difference makers, strong signals of unwillingness to spend through the year... and they both had one foot out the door. Dorion imo, hoped against hope that he could convince one of them to stay and he dragged it out because of the hope that when the rubber met the road one of them would cave and want to stay. We don't know what was going on between Melnyk and Dorion at this time... How much were Dorion's hands tied ? Did it even matter? The players were to become UFAs so the clock management was all on Dorion.

It still baffles me how we went from all in on Duchene .. giving up high end assets because we had a good core and were ready to compete to we will trade Karlsson and do a full on rebuild, with the assumption you could keep players (Duchene, Stone) based on some notion that was just a wisp of a thought, in a matter of a couple of months. How did it happen? How can we evaluate a team to be close to contending , and then do a 180 in that time frame?

 

[supsens]

I know we never got Tavares'd, that was the point I was making. If they wanted to sign, they would have signed. Being strung along by listening to the player/agentspeak will get them where they ended up, at the trade deadline without a contract. As soon as the 1 year deal was signed, and Duchene went the summer without an extention, that should have been understood as to what was going to happen, nothing they do will change their minds.

I agree, the players would/should not want to sign their UFA years away here. The team should have understood that the players would not want to sign, they had been using the word "rebuild" as much as possible. The first thing Duchene said, word for word, is I couldn't go through a rebuild again. Why should anyone be surprised that Duchene had 0 intentions of staying, why did the Sens brass seem to think that he'd want to stay as a leader of their declared rebuild, as they publicly anointed him?

Stone watched as their top goal scorer and franchises best player was traded. It had been an absolute circus here. Nothing would lead anyone to think that the team could be perceived in a positive light by a potential UFA money wise, ownershipwise, talentwise, management wsie.

It's as if they just ignored everything that pointed to very clear direction it was headed.

I know myself at least, and I know it's only a personal opinion and I know my opinion has as little/much validity as anyone else's, had absolutely no thoughts or faith that either Stone or Duchene had any intention of stay as soon as Stone signed a 1 year deal. No soundbites from either side throughout the year changed that whatsoever.

Most players act like they might not sign and play chicken in order to get more money, It’s fairly hard to figure out when they are being genuine or not. They can’t give up and trade a guy the second he tries for more money, Hoffman and Karlsson both had to go.
No one needs a ‘leader’ who takes pride in being lazy in the summer or that won’t show up for practice, it’s not hard to figure out why he always has a slow start. Is he a great hockey player? Yes. leader and role model? Not even close.
Notice SJ hasn’t been able to sign him yet? Garbage owner and GM I guess.

 

[BondraTime]

Most players act like they might not sign and play chicken in order to get more money, It’s fairly hard to figure out when they are being genuine or not. They can’t give up and trade a guy the second he tries for more money, Hoffman and Karlsson both had to go.
No one needs a ‘leader’ who takes pride in being lazy in the summer or that won’t show up for practice, it’s not hard to figure out why he always has a slow start. Is he a great hockey player? Yes. leader and role model? Not even close.
Notice SJ hasn’t been able to sign him yet? Garbage owner and GM I guess.

They aren't going to trade him while they are a cup contender, hence trading for him in the 1st place.

They may not be able to sign him, they got a year of contending out of him and will use the money they would have otherwise given him to someone else in in UFA. They lost literally nobody of importance, so I don't think Wilson is sweating it too much. Also, Burns, Kane, Couture, Vlasic, Thornton all being recent UFA signings tell me that he has the ability to get UFA's signed.

But yeah, same situations, solid analysis.

 

[supsens]

They aren't going to trade him while they are a cup contender, hence trading for him in the 1st place.

They may not be able to sign him, they got a year of contending out of him and will use the money they would have otherwise given him to someone else in in UFA. They lost literally nobody of importance, so I don't think Wilson is sweating it too much. Also, Burns, Kane, Couture, Vlasic, Thornton all being recent UFA signings tell me that he has the ability to get UFA's signed.

But yeah, same situations, solid analysis.

Who said anything about them trading him? But yeah solid reading skills.
They lost a lot for a guy who was cleared to play but decided he didn't feel good enough to show up for half the year. I guess thats what happens when he was expected to work as hard as everyone else on the team.
Anyway like I said he hasn't signed yet so they must have a garbage GM and owner. Thats the only reason that a player won't sign around these parts.

 

[BondraTime]

Who said anything about them trading him? But yeah solid reading skills.
They lost a lot for a guy who was cleared to play but decided he didn't feel good enough to show up for half the year. I guess thats what happens when he was expected to work as hard as everyone else on the team.
Anyway like I said he hasn't signed yet so they must have a garbage GM and owner. Thats the only reason that a player won't sign around these parts.

The whole conversation was about trading guys who aren't going to sign, great reading skills. Also was about Stone and Duchene, but we can go with Karlsson if you like.

Not even sure what you are talking about at this point, did I not explain that nobody would sign here because we were rebuilding and we traded away all of our talent? Where did I say that the sole reason was ownership and management? I mean, they certainly led to the rebuild and what not, so they definitely played a part.

San Jose definitely have good management and ownership, so not sure why your trying to play that card, but sure, if you'd like too over the past 2 years

- Traded for Kane and extended for 7 years as UFA.
- Extended Vlasic at UFA for 7 years
- Extended Burns at UFA for 7 years
- Extended Thornton multiple times at UFA
- Extended Couture for 8 years as UFA
- Extended Hertl for 4 years, 2 of which were UFA
- Signed Sorenson as a UFA
- Traded for Karlsson as a UFA/may not be able to sign him
- Lost Marleau to UFA

Vs.

- Traded Stone due to inability to sign as UFA
- Traded Duchene due to inability to sign as UFA
- Traded Dzingle due to inability to sign as UFA/right time
- Traded Karlsson due to inability to sign as UFA

 

[supsens]

The whole conversation was about trading guys who aren't going to sign, great reading skills.

Not even sure what you are talking about at this point, did I not explain that nobody would sign here because we were rebuilding and we traded away all of our talent? Where did I say that the sole reason was ownership and management? I mean, they certainly led to the rebuild and what not, so they definitely played a part.

Par the course with you a suppose, so all good!

Wrong. I stated the only reason given on these forums for EK not signing is EM and I pointed out how that might not be true. You all act like our GM is the worst because they didn't sign Ek. So why hasn't he signed yet in SJ? Cheap owner and garbage GM?

Now hurry change the direction of the conversation because putting words in my mouth failed.
Figures

 

[BondraTime]

Wrong. I stated the only reason given on these forums for EK not signing is EM and I pointed out how that might not be true. You all act like our GM is the worst because they didn't sign Ek. So why hasn't he signed yet in SJ? Cheap owner and garbage GM?

Now hurry change the direction of the conversation because putting words in my mouth failed.
Figures

Where did I say anything about anything you are talking about there?

Not changing anything, you are making up words and putting them in my mouth

There are 6/7 posts from me in the last page or so, and then there is the post you quoted and started this discussion, if you could bold where I sad this that would be great!

 

[supsens]

Where did I say anything about anything you are talking about there?

Not changing anything, you are making up words and putting them in my mouth

There are 6/7 posts from me in the last page or so, and then there is the post you quoted and started this discussion, if you could bold where I sad this that would be great!

When I say "I" do you confuse that with "you"

 

[BondraTime]

When I say "I" do you confuse that with "you"

What are you quoting me and starting this dialogue for then? Has nothing to do with what I and @JD1 were discussing, whatsoever.

Did you confuse what I was saying with something that was relevant to your thoughts?

 

[Liver King]

To think we had:

Chabot Tkachuk White Brown Batherson Jaros Formenton Chlapik Gustavsson Hogberg and JBD as prospects

While Karlsson Stone Duchene and Dzingel were all under contract in Ottawa.

So we have swapped the big 4 for Norris Brannstrom Abramov and Duclair + some 1st & 2nd round picks and secondary non core pieces

Gotta crush the next 3 drafts
Fire this f*** up of a GM
And hire a legit head coach for the first time in a decade