Thoughts on the rebuild? PART 2

[BondraTime]

Still don’t consider him a #1C, but that’s just my evaluation. He’s s good player, but I don’t think you see Zibby playing #1C on a contending team

Sure, your evaluation is your evaluation , more than fair. Was just correcting that he doesn't need allstar linemates to produce, as he obviously has without.

 

[Micklebot]

A teams track records rd speaks for itself
Since 2012 what top six forwards have been drafted?

Outside of top 10 picks, there aren't a lot of established top 6 forwards drafted in 2012 to present, maybe a dozen or so.

Drafting from 2012 to 2014 was definately a lul. Drafting from 2015 to present hasn't had the required time to really judge but looks far more promising than 2012-2014 ever did with White, Brown, Batherson and Tkachuk all projecting to become top 6 forwards.

Having said that, it's downright strange to judge a teams drafting based on success at a single position. Nashville didn't have a bad draft in 2003 because they didn't get a single forward out of it little lone a top 6 one, they had one of the best drafts out there landing Weber, Suter, and Klein in a single year.

 

[Cosmix]

Tkachuk?

The question is a bit loaded though, given the context of that timeframe.

2012 we took Ceci, a Defenceman, with our 1st pick. And that draft class SUCKED, so the chances of finding a top-6 F in that year past the 1st round was slim. We correctly swung for the fences with a boom-or-bust guy in Jarrod Maidens, but injuries derailed that career (which was the main "bust" risk)

2013 was the Lazar draft, so fair call on that one - that was a bad pick, period. No 2nd rounder in that draft though, and we used our 3rd rounder on a goalie (Hogberg). 4th-7th rounders rarely become top-6 players.

2014 - no 1st round pick, used our 2nd and 3rd rounders on defencemen. Defenceman can't also be top-6 forwards. We spent the 40th overall pick on Englund, who sucks, but man... look at that draft year. There's arguably only 2 players taken after Englund in the entire draft who are a top-6 forward: Brayden Point (3rd round, 79th overall), and Viktor Arvidsson (4th round, 112th overall). It's not like we "just barely missed" anyone. That draft class had no depth, and we had no early picks. Even if we'd taken the next best defenceman instead of Englund, that would have been... Brandon Montour, at 55th overall, 15 picks after Englund?

2015 - still a bit of a wait and see. We used our top pick on a defenceman, Chabot, who I don't think literally anyone will ever complain about. Potential annual all-star. Second 1st rounder was White - probably ends up our 2nd line C sooner than later, clearly has the talent to do so. But he's just 22 years old. Give it time. Other than that, Gagné was a bust, Chlapik seems to be a depth guy.

2016-18 drafts = too soon to tell.

So... I see some forward busts in this group for sure, but looking at the context, the only really BAD pick, like egregiously bad, is Lazar. The rest is us prioritizing the blueline, and in some years lacking high picks because we traded them away. And then us still waiting to see if the new generation pans out (Brown, Batherson, Formenton)

I was happily reading your stuff and came across this sentence “Defenceman can't also be top-6 forwards.”

Then I thought of a guy who was just that: Red Kelly!

Yeah, I’m old.

 

[coladin]

Gentlemen....(and ladies), take a deep breath and give yourselves a break. This "rebuild" was completely inevitable even though it was completely unnecessary. You do not...start a rebuild with a team of star players in their prime. We did not sell off aging veterans because they could no longer compete, we traded away young talented players that would and could win now.

Let us not lose focus on the actual reasons behind why we are actually in this situation--money or specifically, a lack of it.

But isn't that a moot point at this stage? Money has nothing to do with where the team is in - today. They sold off players for prospects and picks. now , any rebuild success requires those picks to pan out, and a few lucky unexpected picks that really pan out.

As I stated earlier, whether it was the Rangers motivation , which everyone buys hook , line and sinker ( even though that organization does not like to lose money like any other), or the Sens motivation (can't resign players , forced to rebuild), the success requires building through the draft, and some key signings. Rangers are ahead because they signed a UFA superstar. But they are having the same growing pains as Ottawa

 

[Micklebot]

I was happily reading your stuff and came across this sentence “Defenceman can't also be top-6 forwards.”

Then I thought of a guy who was just that: Red Kelly!

Yeah, I’m old.

A more recent example is Brent Burns who was a very effective top 6 forward for SJ for a couple years.

 

[BonkTastic]

I was happily reading your stuff and came across this sentence “Defenceman can't also be top-6 forwards.”

Then I thought of a guy who was just that: Red Kelly!

Yeah, I’m old.

Darn, I was tring to set someone up for the "Mark Borowiecki: 1st like forward" gag.

 

[TheDebater]

But isn't that a moot point at this stage? Money has nothing to do with where the team is in - today. They sold off players for prospects and picks. now , any rebuild success requires those picks to pan out, and a few lucky unexpected picks that really pan out.

As I stated earlier, whether it was the Rangers motivation , which everyone buys hook , line and sinker ( even though that organization does not like to lose money like any other), or the Sens motivation (can't resign players , forced to rebuild), the success requires building through the draft, and some key signings. Rangers are ahead because they signed a UFA superstar. But they are having the same growing pains as Ottawa

Difference is the Rangeds did not have the same core we did when they decided to rebuild. They were hurting and needed something to happen, whereas we just needed a better coach, help on defense and a better 4th line. Right now we need a full team from the net (no offense to Nilsson) out.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Difference is the Rangeds did not have the same core we did when they decided to rebuild. They were hurting and needed something to happen, whereas we just needed a better coach, help on defense and a better 4th line. Right now we need a full team from the net (no offense to Nilsson) out.

I personally think that the biggest differences are that they won the draft lottery, and are in the running for the absolute top destination for UFA players.

And respectfully, no, we don’t need a full team from the net out. If we were able to add a 2nd overall pick and a UFA top line player to our roster, we’d be looking just as good as they are (which is not very at the moment), at least.

 

[TheDebater]

I personally think that the biggest differences are that they won the draft lottery, and are in the running for the absolute top destination for UFA players.

And respectfully, no, we don’t need a full team from the net out. If we were able to add a 2nd overall pick and a UFA top line player to our roster, we’d be looking just as good as they are (which is not very at the moment), at least.

I was not making a comparison as to which team is having or will have the better rebuild, but rather I wanted to point out that "pre-rebuild" our team was much closer to being a contender than the Rangers were. We had a solid core, and with some smart management moves and signings, we could have been ready to compete now.

As for my "net out" comment, I was being a bit hyperbolic but the point remains that at this point, do you feel confident about any position as being a "lock" long term? It is a subjective topic because you might be of the opinion that we are only a "top 2 pick and UFA top liner" away from looking as good as the Rangers (not even sure why you would want to use them as a comparison) but some would disagree.

Our goaltending has been good....so far. Nilsson might be our future starter, but maybe not. We have a couple of good defenseman on the team, but the ones in the "system" still have question marks. Same with the situation at forward, so although I was exaggerating my point about needing to build from the net out, I disagree that we are only a couple of moves away from having a cup contender.

 

[Boud]

Energy/shut-down on your top-6, sounds like a plan? Am I being punked? Boedker is a better option than Brown on the top-2 lines. Even if both are crap, one has "scoring pedigree" the other is a Leaf castoff.

This didn't age well

 

[JD1]

I was not making a comparison as to which team is having or will have the better rebuild, but rather I wanted to point out that "pre-rebuild" our team was much closer to being a contender than the Rangers were. We had a solid core, and with some smart management moves and signings, we could have been ready to compete now.

As for my "net out" comment, I was being a bit hyperbolic but the point remains that at this point, do you feel confident about any position as being a "lock" long term? It is a subjective topic because you might be of the opinion that we are only a "top 2 pick and UFA top liner" away from looking as good as the Rangers (not even sure why you would want to use them as a comparison) but some would disagree.

Our goaltending has been good....so far. Nilsson might be our future starter, but maybe not. We have a couple of good defenseman on the team, but the ones in the "system" still have question marks. Same with the situation at forward, so although I was exaggerating my point about needing to build from the net out, I disagree that we are only a couple of moves away from having a cup contender.

A couple of moves depends on context

Nilsson looks good. And as has been pointed out he's Anderson's age when he came here. We could get a 5 or 6 year run of average level starter goaltending

The D.....Chabot. Brannstrom. Wolanin. Zaitsev. JBD. two years from now. What will that look like?

White. Tkachuk. Brown. Brown. Batherson. Two years from now what will that look like?
What does two years look like in our current prospect pool? What does it look like if two or three hit their ceiling?

And what does our 2020 1st look like?

We have a ton of depth. I think we need to watch it develop for two years before we can answer how many moves away we are from being a contender.

 

[coladin]

Difference is the Rangers did not have the same core we did when they decided to rebuild. They were hurting and needed something to happen, whereas we just needed a better coach, help on defense and a better 4th line. Right now we need a full team from the net (no offense to Nilsson) out.

I suppose. But that organization realized that they were spinning their wheels, spending money and getting absolutely nowhere. Ottawa had two dismal seasons with star players and I guess the fact that they could not sign anyone pushed them to blow it all up. I agree with you that a better coach would have done wonders. I know Boucher's first season ended up with a phenomenal playoff run, but he really messed up the second season and that Uber ride spelled it out, pretty clearly.

Gotta say, a couple more games with Paul/Brown/Brannstrom continuing to improve will certainly change the rebuild landscape

 

[Ice-Tray]

I was not making a comparison as to which team is having or will have the better rebuild, but rather I wanted to point out that "pre-rebuild" our team was much closer to being a contender than the Rangers were. We had a solid core, and with some smart management moves and signings, we could have been ready to compete now.

As for my "net out" comment, I was being a bit hyperbolic but the point remains that at this point, do you feel confident about any position as being a "lock" long term? It is a subjective topic because you might be of the opinion that we are only a "top 2 pick and UFA top liner" away from looking as good as the Rangers (not even sure why you would want to use them as a comparison) but some would disagree.

Our goaltending has been good....so far. Nilsson might be our future starter, but maybe not. We have a couple of good defenseman on the team, but the ones in the "system" still have question marks. Same with the situation at forward, so although I was exaggerating my point about needing to build from the net out, I disagree that we are only a couple of moves away from having a cup contender.

Haha, gotcha man it was late for me.

I also think we’re more than a couple roster changes away from being a contender!

 

[Cosmix]

I personally think that the biggest differences are that they won the draft lottery, and are in the running for the absolute top destination for UFA players.

And respectfully, no, we don’t need a full team from the net out. If we were able to add a 2nd overall pick and a UFA top line player to our roster, we’d be looking just as good as they are (which is not very at the moment), at least.

I agree with your first sentence but I am not sure about your last.

We have 1 top D and a few serviceable defencemen (Zaitsev, Wolanin, DeMelo, Lajoie, Jaros, Brannstrom perhaps) and some forwards who could be useful in the longer term future (Tkachuk, L. Brown, White, Batherson, Duclair, Namestnikov). Top end forward talent is where we have a void. We will need 2 to 3 years at least to get top end forwards in the draft and give them time to develop. Top end forwards via UFA is not in the future for this small market Canadian dollar, poor owner team.

 

[Sensinitis]

Ok, I’m gonna give semi-optimistic projections for some of our prospects and assume we get Lafreniere or Byfield.

I’m honestly satisfied with our future in nets and on D.

So, if :
- L.Brown ends up a 60+ point center
- Batherson ends up a 60+ point winger
- Norris ends up a 50+ point center
- Formenton ends up a 40+ point winger
- Balcers ends up a 40+ point winger

Lafreniere-Brown-Batherson
Tkachuk-Norris-Duclair
Formenton-White-C.Brown
Balcers-Paul-whoever
That’s hot... our weakest position (LW) is suddenly the strongest.

or

Tkachuk-Byfield-White
Balcers/Duclair-Brown-Batherson
Formenton-Norris-C.Brown
Paul-wtv-wtv

we’re gonna have to trade some guys up front eventually... but I prefer option 1

 

[Ice-Tray]

I agree with your first sentence but I am not sure about your last.

We have 1 top D and a few serviceable defencemen (Zaitsev, Wolanin, DeMelo, Lajoie, Jaros, Brannstrom perhaps) and some forwards who could be useful in the longer term future (Tkachuk, L. Brown, White, Batherson, Duclair, Namestnikov). Top end forward talent is where we have a void. We will need 2 to 3 years at least to get top end forwards in the draft and give them time to develop. Top end forwards via UFA is not in the future for this small market Canadian dollar, poor owner team.

Fair enough, I guess I’m not that enthused about the Rangers. Not much of a surprise because I don’t like the Rangers.

This roster needs a lot of tuning and development paths to move along before we’re competing for a playoff spot.

 

[slamigo]

Ok, I’m gonna give semi-optimistic projections for some of our prospects and assume we get Lafreniere or Byfield.

I’m honestly satisfied with our future in nets and on D.

So, if :
- L.Brown ends up a 60+ point center
- Batherson ends up a 60+ point winger
- Norris ends up a 50+ point center
- Formenton ends up a 40+ point winger
- Balcers ends up a 40+ point winger

Lafreniere-Brown-Batherson
Tkachuk-Norris-Duclair
Formenton-White-C.Brown
Balcers-Paul-whoever
That’s hot... our weakest position (LW) is suddenly the strongest.

or

Tkachuk-Byfield-White
Balcers/Duclair-Brown-Batherson
Formenton-Norris-C.Brown
Paul-wtv-wtv

we’re gonna have to trade some guys up front eventually... but I prefer option 1

Not totally sold on White/Norris being the answer for 2C/3C but man, that line up actually looks somewhat legit. I'm really hoping White/Norris work out, but I'm not locking them in. I really do hope they can handle those roles. I think this is one of the more optimistic moments of the past few months for me. Lol

 

[JD1]

Not totally sold on White/Norris being the answer for 2C/3C but man, that line up actually looks somewhat legit. I'm really hoping White/Norris work out, but I'm not locking them in. I really do hope they can handle those roles. I think this is one of the more optimistic moments of the past few months for me. Lol

Apparently Mann said the two guys that surprised him the most were Formenton and Norris. The context to me on that is the higher expectations he had for Brown and Batherson so I think it is quite an endorsement. Norris seems to be scoring and adapting well to the pro game.

 

[Sensinitis]

Not totally sold on White/Norris being the answer for 2C/3C but man, that line up actually looks somewhat legit. I'm really hoping White/Norris work out, but I'm not locking them in. I really do hope they can handle those roles. I think this is one of the more optimistic moments of the past few months for me. Lol

yeah for sure. White had 41 pts last year (I know he got a lot of points with Stone) and is on the cusp of being a consistent two way 50pt forward imo.

And I’m higher on Norris than most here so yeah. I think he’s even more likely to be a 2C than White, who might end up on the wing in the future.

 

[Cosmix]

Ok, I’m gonna give semi-optimistic projections for some of our prospects and assume we get Lafreniere or Byfield.

I’m honestly satisfied with our future in nets and on D.

So, if :
- L.Brown ends up a 60+ point center
- Batherson ends up a 60+ point winger
- Norris ends up a 50+ point center
- Formenton ends up a 40+ point winger
- Balcers ends up a 40+ point winger

Lafreniere-Brown-Batherson
Tkachuk-Norris-Duclair
Formenton-White-C.Brown
Balcers-Paul-whoever
That’s hot... our weakest position (LW) is suddenly the strongest.

or

Tkachuk-Byfield-White
Balcers/Duclair-Brown-Batherson
Formenton-Norris-C.Brown
Paul-wtv-wtv

we’re gonna have to trade some guys up front eventually... but I prefer option 1

I hope the "whoever" on the 4th line is the biggest, strongest, meanest, hardest-to-play-against SOAB in the league!

 

[MatchesMalone]

Ok at this point here's what I'd like to see this season:

Trade Tierney+ for Toffoli. Put Toffoli in the best possible position to be successful, perhaps with Pageau and Tkachuk. Hope he re-signs. Hope a bunch of guys re-sign. Trade Anisimov for a pick at the deadline. Throughout the season try to trade as many as possible of Hainsey, Boro, Ennis, Boedker, Anderson. Incorporate L. Brown and Batherson into the lineup full time, the sooner the better.

Lineup going into next season,

Tkachuk - White - Toffoli
Namestnikov - L. Brown - Batherson
Duclair - Pageau - Ryan
Balcers - Chlapik/Norris - C. Brown

Chabot - Zaitsev
Wolanin - DeMelo
Brännström - Jaros

Nilsson
Högberg

 

[Micklebot]

Ok at this point here's what I'd like to see this season:

Trade Tierney+ for Toffoli. Put Toffoli in the best possible position to be successful, perhaps with Pageau and Tkachuk. Hope he re-signs. Hope a bunch of guys re-sign. Trade Anisimov for a pick at the deadline. Throughout the season try to trade as many as possible of Hainsey, Boro, Ennis, Boedker, Anderson. Incorporate L. Brown and Batherson into the lineup full time, the sooner the better.

Lineup going into next season,

Tkachuk - White - Toffoli
Namestnikov - L. Brown - Batherson
Duclair - Pageau - Ryan
Balcers - Chlapik/Norris - C. Brown

Chabot - Zaitsev
Wolanin - DeMelo
Brännström - Jaros

Nilsson
Högberg

Toffoli is UFA, we can trade Tierney for him, but he isn't likely to re-sign here.

 

[Sens]

Toffoli should sign with Edmonton

 

[Adele Dazeem]

The Hockey Gods better give us 1st and 2nd overall picks after the shit we've went through.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

The Hockey Gods better give us 1st and 2nd overall picks after the **** we've went through.

Just to have them traded because we can't afford them