Speculation: This is Ken Holland's Last Season as GM

[Redder Winger]

Oh is that what you call being the most successful team in the league for the duration of his tenure in the organization?

You can not like where the team is now, but making statements like this are completely out of line. Ken Holland is one of the greatest things to happen to the Detroit Red Wings franchise, no matter how this story ends that will remain an unquestionable truth.

I am with people wanting an outsider. Again just to be a broken record, I want Fenton from Nashville.

I think Holland might get an extension to be honest. I don't think he is in any real trouble. Three decades of spectacular service tends to give you a ton of leeway. I would like him to move upstairs and go with Fenton though. I think we need a change.

I give Holland a little more than a decade of "spectacular" service.

Starting in 98 with the drafting of Datsyuk.
It started crumbling in 07-08 with the five year contract for Danny Cleary, got worse in 09 with the signing of Franzen instead of Hossa, and then just kept getting worse as Holland resigned the Clearys and Bertuzzis and Samuelssons and brought in the Modanos and Alfredssons and Colaiacovos and Tootoos.

He traded away first and second round picks and prospects like Jarnkrok and Backman and Janmark to get mostly useless players that amounted to nothing in Detroit. That helped Detroit accomplish nothing - Cole, Quincey, etc.

You can't blame Holland for being unable to draft and develop a replacement for Lidstrom.
But he could not draft and develop a replacement for Rafalski. Same with Brad Stuart.


Who was going to carry the torch next, from Yzerman to Fedorov to Datsyuk to Zetterberg?
We've known for a long time this team was going to need centers to replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
He couldn't draft them.
But he didn't give himself much of a chance.
From 1998 until drafting Riley Sheahan in 2010 (Awful pick with Kuznetsov on the board), Holland didn't use a single first round pick on a center.
Since then he's drafted two. Larkin and Rasmussen. Both of whom might not be best suited for center.

From 1998 until 2017, Holland has used some first rounders for defense. But outside of Kronwall, it's mostly been unimpressive. Kindl and Smith made the NHL, but both were disappointments.

This fall from glory was unavoidable.
It only went as long as it did because Lidstrom stuck around so long, and because, Datsyuk and Z remained so good so late into their careers (centers usually hit the wall hard at 34/35).

But I can't help but wonder if things might have gone a little bit differently if the "rebuild on the fly" plan started in say, 2010, instead of 2013.
If the didn't bring in old timers and if didn't trade away draft picks and prospects for old guys.
Maybe we have that extra good young C or D right now.
Maybe one of those kids we traded turns into something better with top 6 icetime and PP time.

I'm not how much credit Holland deserves for the 1990-1997 Red Wings.
I'm willing to give him a lot of credit for the 98-09 Wings.
What credit does he really deserve for the 10-18 Wings?

 

[Oddbob]

Steve Yzerman was and still is my favourite player of All Time, however I do not want him to be the GM of the Red Wings, becuase their is no chance it doesn't ruin his legacy with the Wings fans, especially the casual ones. Every single GM, no matter how great or respected will inevitably hit that point where they will get blamed for failures and eventually get fired, there is 0 chance that this would not eventually be the case with Stevie. Just look at Joe Sakic, his reputation has taken a beating and I bet there are Avalanche fans who don't look at him the same way as they did.

Don't get me wrong, I think Steve Yzerman is a pretty good GM and I think he would do a pretty good job, and I personally would be very excited if he did come back in the GM spot, I just would hate that eventually people would jump all over him, any time he made a bad trade, drafted the wrong guy, or we have bad results in the standings and playoffs. The Internet is a fickle place as we all know and negativity is the nature of the place.

 

[Oddbob]

No disrespect Bin, but it seems to me like the only way Holland would go upstairs is if the decision is made for him.

From everything I have read, Holland is still very passionate about being GM and isn’t ready to give it up.

So with Chris Illitch giving him a vote of confidence just a few months ago, I’m not banking on this happening.

One thing I have learned in the 27 years of following the Wings and sports in general is that in terms of votes of confidence, they are almost always the opposite of what they mean. How many times have we seen a vote of confidence for a coach or GM, and then days, not even weeks/months later they are canned? Votes of confidence to me seem like their generic way of not wanting to be honest about their feelings or decisions that they want to make.

 

[Oddbob]

I give Holland a little more than a decade of "spectacular" service.

Starting in 98 with the drafting of Datsyuk.
It started crumbling in 07-08 with the five year contract for Danny Cleary, got worse in 09 with the signing of Franzen instead of Hossa, and then just kept getting worse as Holland resigned the Clearys and Bertuzzis and Samuelssons and brought in the Modanos and Alfredssons and Colaiacovos and Tootoos.

He traded away first and second round picks and prospects like Jarnkrok and Backman and Janmark to get mostly useless players that amounted to nothing in Detroit. That helped Detroit accomplish nothing - Cole, Quincey, etc.

You can't blame Holland for being unable to draft and develop a replacement for Lidstrom.
But he could not draft and develop a replacement for Rafalski. Same with Brad Stuart.


Who was going to carry the torch next, from Yzerman to Fedorov to Datsyuk to Zetterberg?
We've known for a long time this team was going to need centers to replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
He couldn't draft them.
But he didn't give himself much of a chance.
From 1998 until drafting Riley Sheahan in 2010 (Awful pick with Kuznetsov on the board), Holland didn't use a single first round pick on a center.
Since then he's drafted two. Larkin and Rasmussen. Both of whom might not be best suited for center.

From 1998 until 2017, Holland has used some first rounders for defense. But outside of Kronwall, it's mostly been unimpressive. Kindl and Smith made the NHL, but both were disappointments.

This fall from glory was unavoidable.
It only went as long as it did because Lidstrom stuck around so long, and because, Datsyuk and Z remained so good so late into their careers (centers usually hit the wall hard at 34/35).

But I can't help but wonder if things might have gone a little bit differently if the "rebuild on the fly" plan started in say, 2010, instead of 2013.
If the didn't bring in old timers and if didn't trade away draft picks and prospects for old guys.
Maybe we have that extra good young C or D right now.
Maybe one of those kids we traded turns into something better with top 6 icetime and PP time.

I'm not how much credit Holland deserves for the 1990-1997 Red Wings.
I'm willing to give him a lot of credit for the 98-09 Wings.
What credit does he really deserve for the 10-18 Wings?

In all fairness, who in their right mind thinks replacing a Yzerman/Datsyuk/Zetterberg type players through the draft is going to be an easy thing, or even happen in the first place. Those players were and are great for a reason and near impossible to replace. Many GM's would have struggled with that scenario. Also, I like how people always look back now and say man in 2009 and 2010 we should have rebuilt the team, give me a break with that garbage. We were still a darn good team, in those years, and in 11-13 even, no way we could have known that Franzen would get hurt like he did or that Kronwall would fall off as he did becuase of injuries. We have legit only had about 2 seasons and this year of not being a good team anymore, not 6 and more years like many here claim. Obviously are success was going to catch us at some point, you always pay eventually with being really good. Pittsburgh is already starting to pay, with adding guys like Sheahan to their team, eventually they will fall from grace too, just as the Hawks are not starting to do, and the Kings, it literally happens to everyone. It just bugs me a lot, that people are so quick to hate all things Red Wing and have this world is falling down type of thinking. If we had been like Edmonton and others with decades of being bad, then you betcha, I would start really being a complainer too, but that is not the case with Our Wings, and I honestly don't think it will be more than 2-4 years, before we start being a good team again. You don't have to bottom out to be really great just because right now that is the flavour of the day.

 

[Redder Winger]

Also, I like how people always look back now and say man in 2009 and 2010 we should have rebuilt the team, give me a break with that garbage. We were still a darn good team, in those years, and in 11-13 even, no way we could have known that Franzen would get hurt like he did or that Kronwall would fall off as he did becuase of injuries.

Holland was too conservative in his approach.
Look how much the Blackhawks roster changed from cup to cup.

Look how many unproven rookies were handed jobs because you have to have guys making under a million dollars if you're going to pay your stars.

The point isn't that the team should have torn down after 2010.
The point is that the rebuild on the fly should have begun. It might not have worked. But if it did, it was the only way to avoid the 5 years of pain the Red Wings are about to endure.

 

[golffuul]

I still think Holland should have taken his own advice and retired when Lidstrom did. Especially when he struck out on FA D-men two years in a row.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

It's hard to say Holland was spectacular when so much of his success came from scouting, and not normal GM duties. He didn't trade his way to the cup, and certainly not in the cap era. How much of that was luck, and how much was good scouting? How much of that good scouting was from Holland himself? Hard to say.

 

[Bench]

It's hard to say Holland was spectacular when so much of his success came from scouting, and not normal GM duties. He didn't trade his way to the cup, and certainly not in the cap era. How much of that was luck, and how much was good scouting? How much of that good scouting was from Holland himself? Hard to say.

Holland was terrific at continuing to add impact pieces via free agency to keep the Wings a dominant team. When everyone wanted to play for the Wings and there was no salary cap, he made the Wings a destination team that were the Yankees of the NHL. He even swung a few nice moves to acquire players like Chelios and Hasek. Basically, once the team was a contender, he brought in elite veteran talent to push them over the top. And all the credit in the world to him. He was as good, or better, than anyone in the business at the time.

But that was a long time ago when it comes to sports. An entire new generation of players are stars and the game has shifted. How you manage a team has shifted. And his team is no longer a destination, but a final pit stop for veterans before retirement. Coping with the loss of your three generational players in Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg has put a spotlight on his ability to sustain a team in the post-cap era.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

There is absolutely zero chance Yzerman is a worse GM than Holland.

I don't give a shit about legacy, if Yzerman is available and we can replace Holland with him, I want HIM.

 

[Frk It]

It's hard to say Holland was spectacular when so much of his success came from scouting, and not normal GM duties. He didn't trade his way to the cup, and certainly not in the cap era. How much of that was luck, and how much was good scouting? How much of that good scouting was from Holland himself? Hard to say.

A GM has to employ the scouts, and make sure they are happy and want to stay. He did a really good job of front office hirings during his time here. I mean he was a big reason for that short lived rule where you got compensation for other teams taking your front office personnel.

 

[Reddwit]

I genuinely used to think Holland was the best GM in all of sports but a huge shift in my thinking arrived when it became apparent that Holland was very limited in his tactics. He beautifully crafted a classy loyalist organization which was key to the 2002 Cup win and he appreciated veteran savvy at a time when there were a ton of still highly-skilled veterans in their mid 30s floating around. If you want to go even further, you could attribute to him an appreciation for European scouting that allowed us to draft Datsyuk and Zetterberg (although even Hakan himself calls those picks luck). But beyond that, I don't really feel like he's separated himself from Illitch's pocketbook and drive to win. In retrospect, the luck of drafting Zetterberg and Datsyuk and the motivating factor that was the Vladdy/Sergei crash for a Repeat were very serendipitous.

I'm not going to sit here and act like he wasn't a great GM for a while but when the going got tough, this guy had nothing to offer. You'd think if he was the GM he was cracked up to be he would have an answer - even a partial answer - to the impending problems that were there on the horizon half a decade before they were at our doorstep. Still - nothing.

Its no wonder the rumor is he's ready to retire. If he stays much longer, his reputation will only deteriorate with what he's set us up for.

 

[Hadoop]

Please let this rumour be true.

 

[Bench]

A GM has to employ the scouts, and make sure they are happy and want to stay. He did a really good job of front office hirings during his time here. I mean he was a big reason for that short lived rule where you got compensation for other teams taking your front office personnel.

That's a good point. We definitely lost a lot of management and coaching talent over the years. That can only happen for so long before you feel the pinch.

 

[Claypool]

Please let this rumour be true.

His contract runs out at the end of this season. No organization employs a lame duck GM. It makes no sense. If Chris Illitch believes in him like he said in the past then Holland would have a new contract by now.

 

[jkutswings]

That's a good point. We definitely lost a lot of management and coaching talent over the years. That can only happen for so long before you feel the pinch.

But I had thought that less is more, right?

 

[Pavels Dog]

His contract runs out at the end of this season. No organization employs a lame duck GM. It makes no sense. If Chris Illitch believes in him like he said in the past then Holland would have a new contract by now.

I don't think I've ever heard the term "lame duck GM". Coach? Yeah. If the players know the coach is leaving it could lead to some bad results in the lockerrom. But the GM? What impact does it have if he's signed beyond this year or not?
By no means do I think his job is safe or that he himself isn't thinking about stepping aside, but I don't see why it's necessarily a done deal already.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't think I've ever heard the term "lame duck GM". Coach? Yeah. If the players know the coach is leaving it could lead to some bad results in the lockerrom. But the GM? What impact does it have if he's signed beyond this year or not?
By no means do I think his job is safe or that he himself isn't thinking about stepping aside, but I don't see why it's necessarily a done deal already.

I agree that it doesn't apply exactly the same way as it does for a coach, but as the season wears on, you start to approach a deadline where, if you were to hire a new GM, their preparation time for the draft and other off season activities begins to get compressed.

So while it's not significant right now, I'd think that it should definitely be ironed out one way or the other by the end of the regular season (preferably by the trade deadline).

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Steve Yzerman was and still is my favourite player of All Time, however I do not want him to be the GM of the Red Wings, becuase their is no chance it doesn't ruin his legacy with the Wings fans, especially the casual ones. Every single GM, no matter how great or respected will inevitably hit that point where they will get blamed for failures and eventually get fired, there is 0 chance that this would not eventually be the case with Stevie. Just look at Joe Sakic, his reputation has taken a beating and I bet there are Avalanche fans who don't look at him the same way as they did.

Don't get me wrong, I think Steve Yzerman is a pretty good GM and I think he would do a pretty good job, and I personally would be very excited if he did come back in the GM spot, I just would hate that eventually people would jump all over him, any time he made a bad trade, drafted the wrong guy, or we have bad results in the standings and playoffs. The Internet is a fickle place as we all know and negativity is the nature of the place.

I know it's a limited sample, but I've not seen one thing that would lead me to believe that Stevie has any interest in returning to Detroit (maybe other than he still has a house here? Not sure that he still does). I'm judging especially by the comments he gave at the last game Tampa played at the Joe. If I recall correctly, making the playoffs in Tampa took precedence over anything at that moment (as it should).

If he was interested at all, surely he would have given a clue.

 

[The Zermanator]

A GM has to employ the scouts, and make sure they are happy and want to stay. He did a really good job of front office hirings during his time here. I mean he was a big reason for that short lived rule where you got compensation for other teams taking your front office personnel.

Perhaps he should choose his replacement, then.

 

[Henkka]

I know it's a limited sample, but I've not seen one thing that would lead me to believe that Stevie has any interest in returning to Detroit (maybe other than he still has a house here? Not sure that he still does). I'm judging especially by the comments he gave at the last game Tampa played at the Joe. If I recall correctly, making the playoffs in Tampa took precedence over anything at that moment (as it should).

If he was interested at all, surely he would have given a clue.

We have to wait that Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov will become overpaid and past their prime, few of his assistants are hired elsewhere and take his scouts with them.

Then he'll leave.

 

[theD86]

http://www.cambodiaproperty.info/fr...-lightning-gm-steve-yzerman-selling-in-tampa/

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Yzerman was selling that house last year as well.

Yzerman is not quitting on Tampa to come to Detroit.

 

[Lampedampe]

Has KH been too strong of a leader for the wings? It almost seems like he's controlling too much and no one can really challenge him. Throughout Ken Holland's tenure there's been so much competence in the front office but pretty much most of whom has left and maybe they left as a result of not being able to climb in the organisation due to Holland (that was definitely the case with Yzerman)?

It feels like the entire front office has to be reshaped at this point.

 

[Martinez]

http://www.cambodiaproperty.info/fr...-lightning-gm-steve-yzerman-selling-in-tampa/

No thanks, out of my price range

 

[Syckle78]

http://www.cambodiaproperty.info/fr...-lightning-gm-steve-yzerman-selling-in-tampa/

Is it autographed?