Classicnamesup
MVP Backhand Slapper
I think more likely to get change is to watch this team get stomped again in the playoffs. Babs will leave, Holland will need to do something.
Post-Game Talk: This could get very interesting and not in a good way!
- Thread starter The Zetterberg Era
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Huddy*
Registered User
we arent adding all of them are we?
so basically by your assessment, the Wings are short on young D? hmm, news to me
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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As for an offer I believe Detroit SHOULD have made, but (as far as we know) they never even attempted, I ABSOLUTELY think they should've signed Shea Weber to an offer sheet that Nashville had no chance of matching. I'd trade any current Wings player for a defenseman of his caliber, and that goes double for their prospects.
For forwards, past moves I've advocated include signing Alexander Semin and trading for Thomas Vanek.
Have all these moves worked out perfectly for the clubs that DID pull the trigger? No. But apparently I have a much more pessimistic view than most, on the ceiling of Detroit's collective internal assets, because I'd take a roll of the dice over the current condemnation of a meaningless streak attached to a perpetual early exit.
For forwards, past moves I've advocated include signing Alexander Semin and trading for Thomas Vanek.
Have all these moves worked out perfectly for the clubs that DID pull the trigger? No. But apparently I have a much more pessimistic view than most, on the ceiling of Detroit's collective internal assets, because I'd take a roll of the dice over the current condemnation of a meaningless streak attached to a perpetual early exit.
Huddy*
Registered User
Ugh, I am sure pretty Weber was offered a contract the Wings couldnt match, check me if I am wrong on that. His cap hit is insane coming up...only above $7M now, but I think it jumps well above that soon.
As for Semin. What? Hes got 17 pts and is being paid $7M a year. Vanek could work, but ill pass...
So what you're saying is you'd roll the dice for three players making just north of $20M
vs sticking to guys like Nyquist/Tatar/Pulk making way short of that? Who do you replace if you bring in Semin/Vanek? Cleary/Weiss? Sure, but 29 other clubs would do the same if given the option, bud!
Everything's fine. You've explained yourself now and even if I don't agree to get the aforementioned players at any prize, I see where you're coming from.
Cyborg Yzerberg
Registered User
That is literally what Philadelphia tried to do and almost succeeded in doing.
In regards to Weber offer sheet...
Holland did inquire about him. Weber even put Detroit on his short list of teams he took a tour of. Ultimately Weber picked Philadelphia.
What I'm saying is your criticism might be valid, but the examples are not rooted in reality. You say you would have signed Weber to an unmatchable deal? Well, he did that with Philly. The signing bonuses were INSANE for Nashville to cover. Didn't matter. Wouldn't have mattered for Detroit either, even if you did get Weber to agree to it.
Holland did inquire about him. Weber even put Detroit on his short list of teams he took a tour of. Ultimately Weber picked Philadelphia.
What I'm saying is your criticism might be valid, but the examples are not rooted in reality. You say you would have signed Weber to an unmatchable deal? Well, he did that with Philly. The signing bonuses were INSANE for Nashville to cover. Didn't matter. Wouldn't have mattered for Detroit either, even if you did get Weber to agree to it.
didn't Weber get paid like $24m in the first calendar year because of two massive before season bonuses? Nashville was willing to match that, they were willing to match pretty much anything put on the table. The best hope for getting Weber was him taking a short deal with Nashville and then hitting the open market.
Yes, exactly.
Weber did this immediately before the new CBA looked imminent. His contract would not fly under the new rules, so he used teams like Philly to force a huge deal while the window was still open.
Him and his agent were pretty clever.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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I'm not saying they should've done all 3 for $20M. I'm saying any ONE of those deals would've helped this roster. And for Semin specifically, the extension was ridiculous, and that's not what I meant. He was first signed to a 1-year deal (I think) and had 31 pts in 44 games after the lockout.Ugh, I am sure pretty Weber was offered a contract the Wings couldnt match, check me if I am wrong on that. His cap hit is insane coming up...only above $7M now, but I think it jumps well above that soon.
As for Semin. What? Hes got 17 pts and is being paid $7M a year. Vanek could work, but ill pass...
So what you're saying is you'd roll the dice for three players making just north of $20M
Some guys (Semin) are band-aids. Others (Weber) are long-term. If the Weber terms really were unreachable, then so be it. But the premise remains: Despite the challenges of adding significant talent from outside the organization, I see no evidence that the strategy of building all major pieces internally will ever be fruitful enough to reach 16 wins (within the foreseeable future, at least - 10 years from now could be different).
Huddy*
Registered User
I agree with the above, however, some won't. The Red Wings are SUPER close to being very very good. They won't do it with their prospects and current core, however, they are 1-2pieces away from being just sick nasty, given #13/#40 stay healthy a few more years...See, I have always said the Wings need 1/2 major FA signings along with their current core and prospects to get to 16. Point is, KH struck out in Weber, Parise, Suter along w a few others this past off-season. Is what it is. If the Wings bomb out 1/2nd rd this year, I think the realization of adding a pure goal scorer & big time D-man will ponder in KHs head. The whole, "lets just make the playoffs" attitude is not going to cut it anymore. Its time to either poop or get off the pot as they say...
If Kenny just "wanted to make the playoffs", he won't even bother to offer anything for guys that would make us significantly better. He may have his personal limits on what to offer, above all considering some prospects as being untouchable in trades, but you make it sound like he just leans back and does nothing.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
The Red Wings have known for a long time they need to massively upgrade their defense. The problem is Holland has struck out on anyone who would fit the bill as a significant upgrade. Quincey was going to be set free this summer until Holland whiffed on every upgrade possible. Zidlicky has demonstrated just how badly we needed a right handed defenseman, something Babcock has been asking for pretty much for the past 5-6 years.
Holland is stuck with hoping that Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet and Jensen end up being better than Kindl, Smith and Quincey. To date there's nothing to suggest any of them will be top 3 d-men in the NHL.
ashenhigh
Registered User
Huddy*
Registered User
Yes, they do need to upgrade their D, as I stated in previous post. The Wings are one/two players away from being serious contenders. Yes, I know KH has struck out, exactly what I was saying earlier. Was Q really going to be set free? Or was a guy like Kindl/E/Smith going to be moved instead and give Q more of a shot? We did rid a 1st for Q after all and were not just going to let him walk away., just an opinion....Yes, Zidlicky has proven everything we need from a RH shot. I wish he was up on the 1st line, but thats for another thread.
Zidlicky, has been one of KH best TD acquisitions since what, ?Robert Lang?. Marchenko has proven he is better than most currently playing, just an opinion, based on what he has done so far. Can Marchenko do it on a consistent basis?, I don't know, however, shouldn't he be given a bigger role now that our D is so bad and sofffttttt? How does anyone know Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet and Jensen won't become top three NHL D, until given time to prove it? I won't buy, b/c they are't playing now, given the Wings history of hoarding prospects in the minors. Currently, majority of the Griffins who are the Wings "top prospects" are more than ready to prove what they can show at the NHL level, however this lineup is full of guys who aren't cutting it, IMO.
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Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Yes, Ken Holland was planning on signing either Dan Boyle, Christian Ehrhoff or Matt Niskanen. When they all signed with other teams he went back to Quincey with hat in hand and signed him to a new deal. That's how Ken Holland do these days. No one had any interest in signing Quincey that early in free agency, only Holland was after he realized how epic his fail was once again.
Brad Stuart was the perfect Holland acquisition, low cost because he was a defensive d-man who brought exactly what our team was missing. Both him and Dallas Drake (signed as a free agent) provided that element of grit that put us over the top.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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That's the one spot I disagree with. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are already at the end of their careers, in terms of playing major roles. 2-3 years from now, they'll be the next Clearys, not still on the edge of propping up one last Cup run.
Huddy*
Registered User
meh, media speculated that, reason why so many believe this theory. In reality, no one really knows what would have happened.
Ok, first off Brad Stuart was a great acquisition, forgot about him, my bad, however, Stuart left Detroit to go back "home" to be closer to his wife and step-son who couldn't leave the state. Stuart chose to leave to head back to Cali, kudos to him., however, given he was traded by SJ, pisses me off b/c in theory, there was no need for him to leave. He would be a viable option right now, but his circumstance took him elsewhere, only to backfire on the both the Wings and him...Dallas Drake, ok, really? Ya, he was good, I won't argue that. He helped win the Wings a cup. Major force? Some will say yes, some will say no.
ugh,
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The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
We should be happy that was Brad Stuart's position. It had already started in terms of his decline by the time he was leaving Detroit, but it is the full on reality now. He is an awful hockey player these days. That guy isn't better than what we are icing these days on the back-end. Stuart is a slightly better defensive version of Cleary, that battle mentality he brought has taken a big toll in his game.
I appreciate what he did for us, but go cruise the Sharks or Avs board for the discussion of what his play has been since he left. Flat awful is the answer.
That's why I can't blame a 36 year old for missing a ton of games the past two years and a 35 year old for not being an elite, dominating player anymore. We are relying on two players past their primes to carry this team. That's not a good formula for winning championships in any sport. We are fortunate Datsyuk can still be elite some nights and Zetterberg can still be solid...but both players are in obvious decline. Two years from now Datsyuk will likely be in Russia and Zetterberg will be 37 and a shell of the player he was in 7-8 years ago.
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
This is why I'm not thrilled Holland pissed away a 2nd for Cole and a 3rd for Zidlicky. Wings aren't winning **** with those guys and those scouts had a chance to pick magic with those draft picks. What's the point in trading assets for 36+ year olds?
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
If you read the local papers leading up to free agency it was pretty clear that Holland was going after the three big offensive d-men free agents. Just read what Khan was saying at that time. If Holland wanted to sign Quincey he could have done so far in advance of July 1st. Hint: Quincey signed that deal well after Boyle, Niskanen and Ehrhoff all signed new deals this summer.
Stuart left at just the right time as his game has fallen off from where it was. I give him credit, he could have hung around Detroit and Holland would have signed him for 2-3 years beyond when his career should have ended. All you need to do is look at the career of Dan Cleary as a reference point.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
The last truly elite player Ken Holland drafted was Pavel Datsyuk in 1998. You can also make a case for Z in 1999. SO YES, it totally makes sense to rely on his drafting skillz to restock the roster.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
The last truly elite player Ken Holland drafted was Pavel Datsyuk in 1998. You can also make a case for Z in 1999. SO YES, it totally makes sense to rely on his drafting skillz to restock the roster.
if datsyuk is the only truly elite player that holland has drafted, then not a single current GM employed has drafted a truly elite player on their current job.
