Post-Game Talk: This could get very interesting and not in a good way!

[Zetterberg4Captain]

same with myers but they both do have very good upside.

mantha and larkin are nothing more than very good prospects at this point.

bogo/myers might not have the value of mantha + larkin but their GMs had absolutely no need to trade either, so one would have had to overpay to get them. especially as mantha and larking wouldn't have helped sabres needs.

myers has at least shown he can produce as a top pairing dman in the nhl with 50pts

I am not trying to rag on bogosian whatsoever but myers i guess in my opinion is a legit threat to be that true top pairing nhl dman for the next decade whereas bogosian will likely never stay healthy enough or produce enough offence to be such

of course neither GM had to make a trade but they nonethless did and that is all that matters for discussing value/return, and i think mantha plus larkin are worth signnificantly more then bogosian

 

[InjuredChoker]

myers has at least shown he can produce as a top pairing dman in the nhl with 50pts

I am not trying to rag on bogosian whatsoever but myers i guess in my opinion is a legit threat to be that true top pairing nhl dman for the next decade whereas bogosian will likely never stay healthy enough or produce enough offence to be such

of course neither GM had to make a trade but they nonethless did and that is all that matters for discussing value/return, and i think mantha plus larkin are worth signnificantly more then bogosian

i think they mantha and larkin are worth more in vacuum. but not for jets or sabres.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Babcock essentially said Mrazek is the #1 going forward.

Wow really, I missed that. Any link?

 

[detredWINgs]

Anytime we got through a rough stretch the team is supposedly made up out of completely worthless scrubs. Let's take an unbiased look:

Kronwall : legit #1, great two-way D-man
Ericsson : good defensive d-man having an off year and playing a role he's not fit for, as a #4-5 he'd be terrific
Dekeyser : great defensive d-man with some offensive upside, great #3
Quincey : past struggles aside, this season has been a very good defensive d-man with some physicality
Zidlicky : new acquisition but very good offensive d-man

I leave out Smith and Kindl because they fit your description of not being strong defensively or offensively. Funnily enough, I think Smith has been good lately and very good last night. But I think an Ouellet-Zidlicky 3rd pairing would probably be better.

Ericsson is not a good defensive defenseman though. He wasn't competent until he was 27 (this is part of the reason I haven't given up on Smith. Ericsson was a trainwreck until he was 27) and then he had two seasons where he was good. Now he's poor again. Would you call a guy that has been rough defensively for 60% of his NHL career good? I wouldn't. The guy has a very limited resume when it comes to fulfilling his role properly. And it's absolutely taken its toll on Kronwall who has really had a poor second half. The difference is Kronwall has been decent since day one and eventually became great.

Also, you're saying Ericsson is playing too high for his role and admit that Q has had past struggles. Neither have the resume to suggest they're fit for their roles outside of favorable circumstances. Ericsson could very we'll be a great #4, but he's a terrible #2, and where would Q be without Deleyser, the one who has the better yet shorter track record defensively but has a fraction of Q's experience?

 

[JimmyB]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/03/jimmy_howards_struggles_prompt.html#incart_river

Wow really, I missed that. Any link?

 

[DanZ]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/03/jimmy_howards_struggles_prompt.html#incart_river

Yeah that's not really what he said

 

[jkutswings]

I'm sure some will dismiss me as a hater, but I sincerely hope they miss the playoffs. DET is 0-3 vs TB, having been outscored 12-5. And including other possible 1st round opponents (MON, NYR), they're 2-7, having been outscored 27-15. All that, coupled with how the team is playing lately, spells an early massacre.

But ANYTHING can happen in the playoffs! Why would you ever root against the team having SOME chance, instead of NONE?

Because the likely scenario (postseason cannon fodder) supports the status quo business model: building (VERY) slowly. Without a significant injection of external talent, I don't EVER see the rise of the youth overcoming the decline of the vets to a degree that leads to 16 wins.

End the streak and force more aggressive changes.

 

[Heaton]

I'm sure some will dismiss me as a hater, but I sincerely hope they miss the playoffs. DET is 0-3 vs TB, having been outscored 12-5. And including other possible 1st round opponents (MON, NYR), they're 2-7, having been outscored 27-15. All that, coupled with how the team is playing lately, spells an early massacre.

But ANYTHING can happen in the playoffs! Why would you ever root against the team having SOME chance, instead of NONE?

Because the likely scenario (postseason cannon fodder) supports the status quo business model: building (VERY) slowly. Without a significant injection of external talent, I don't EVER see the rise of the youth overcoming the decline of the vets to a degree that leads to 16 wins.

End the streak and force more aggressive changes.

Why would that force aggressive changes? Missing in the playoffs won't change the teams direction.

 

[jkutswings]

The moves of the franchise over the last five years suggest that they are content to just make the playoffs. Removing that contentment could/should create more urgency.

Keep in mind, these are relative terms, but almost any pace would be faster than the molasses-esque approach Holland is using.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The moves of the franchise over the last five years suggest that they are content to just make the playoffs. Removing that contentment could/should create more urgency.

Keep in mind, these are relative terms, but almost any pace would be faster than the molasses-esque approach Holland is using.

That's why they have been going after defensemen since 2012, right?

Quincey was only signed as a last resort last season.

Also how many teams that consistently make the playoffs just blow everything up when they are in playoff contention?

 

[detredWINgs]

Why would that force aggressive changes? Missing in the playoffs won't change the teams direction.

Yup. Missing the playoffs now is the worst case scenario because the rhetoric would simply be "we were in it for most of the season, we were right there, this is a tough league, a few bounces our way and we're in."

 

[InjuredChoker]

Yup. Missing the playoffs now is the worst case scenario because the rhetoric would simply be "we were in it for most of the season, we were right there, this is a tough league, a few bounces our way and we're in."

they can also point out how close they were winning the cup when kings claw their way in and do it as a wild card team.

 

[Bench]

Also how many teams that consistently make the playoffs just blow everything up when they are in playoff contention?

Philly. They have missed the playoffs 50% of the time since that brilliant plan.

 

[jkutswings]

"Going after defensemen since 2012" has consisted of trying to make an omelette without breaking any eggs. Lowballing legit UFAs, while only making minor trades for depth players won't come close to getting it done. And making at least ONE major trade or RFA offer isn't "blowing everything up". There exists a wide swath of happy medium betwwen a total nuke and treading water.

If people don't like how aggressive I'd prefer the Wings to be, that's fine. The world continues to turn. But the current philosophy has them much closer to missing the playoffs than winning a Cup. As speaking only for myself, that's embarrassing.

Philly. They have missed the playoffs 50% of the time since that brilliant plan.

For what it's worth, over the last five seasons, Detroit has 21 playoff victories to Philadelphia's 19. Not exactly clear-cut evidence of a superior strategy.

 

[ap3x]

And making at least ONE major trade or RFA offer isn't "blowing everything up".

So, Holland didn't go for any major trade? You make it sound as if you just have to join in the bidding war and you'll get someone that you wish for.
Did the Pens offer more for Ehrhoff, did the Habs for Petry, did the Caps for Niskanen or did Wisniewski even bother to come over?

 

[jkutswings]

I'm not saying he never made a single offer. Merely that he's never made a SUCCESSFUL one. He's viewed our internal assets, in whatever combination(s) any trade partners have expressed interest in them, as being worth more than whatever external player(s) he has considered.

And I'm saying that all these internal assets that Holland values so highly will never be enough to win a Cup in Detroit.

Disagree if you like; it's a free world. I'm just vastly underwhelmed by an average of 4.2 playoff wins per year since they choked it away against Pittsburgh - with the team most recently looking as if that average will decrease - and I'd love to know what miracle is waiting in the wings to change that, particularly on defense.

 

[Bench]

"For what it's worth, over the last five seasons, Detroit has 21 playoff victories to Philadelphia's 19. Not exactly clear-cut evidence of a superior strategy.

Big problem with your statement. You included time before Philly blew it up traded away Richards and Carter. That was the whole point. Since then, they have missed the playoffs 2 out of 4 years.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

For what it's worth, over the last five seasons, Detroit has 21 playoff victories to Philadelphia's 19. Not exactly clear-cut evidence of a superior strategy.

You are including the 2010 run in that, correct?

I would think that skews the numbers a tad.

 

[ap3x]

I'm not saying he never made a single offer. Merely that he's never made a SUCCESSFUL one. He's viewed our internal assets, in whatever combination(s) any trade partners have expressed interest in them, as being worth more than whatever external player(s) he has considered.

And I'm saying that all these internal assets that Holland values so highly will never be enough to win a Cup in Detroit.

So, which deals are you exactly talking about here? What should he have offered and in which case matches that value the actual trades that went down?

 

[Huddy*]

"Going after defensemen since 2012" has consisted of trying to make an omelette without breaking any eggs. Lowballing legit UFAs, while only making minor trades for depth players won't come close to getting it done. And making at least ONE major trade or RFA offer isn't "blowing everything up". There exists a wide swath of happy medium betwwen a total nuke and treading water.

If people don't like how aggressive I'd prefer the Wings to be, that's fine. The world continues to turn. But the current philosophy has them much closer to missing the playoffs than winning a Cup. As speaking only for myself, that's embarrassing.

I am on board 100%. I put it this way, there are those that will ALWAYS be content with how things are and there are those who aren't. This board is about 70/30 being content. The Wings are definitely trending water right now, really have been all year. Howard played exceptional during the first half of the year, kept them in games, but since day one of this year, I was skeptcal on their chances. They surprised the hell out of me during the first half of the year. The Wings still need a major upgrade at D, a confident goalie, and another goal scorer besides Datsyuk, to equal some parts out. Too many guys trying to carry the load themselves.

 

[ap3x]

That discussion is hardly about being content or not. It's about the measurement of what's the right way to handle the situation.

 

[Claypool]

And I'm saying that all these internal assets that Holland values so highly will never be enough to win a Cup in Detroit.

Signing players like Christian Ehrhoff, Matt Carle, Dan Boyle, or Matt Niskanen wouldn't be enough, either.

 

[Huddy*]

Signing players like Christian Ehrhoff, Matt Carle, Dan Boyle, or Matt Niskanen wouldn't be enough, either.

I beg to differ over guys like Q, E, Smith, Kindl, all guys KH values extremely high

 

[jkutswings]

So, which deals are you exactly talking about here? What should he have offered and in which case matches that value the actual trades that went down?

To begin with, I should clarify something. After re-reading my post that you originally replied to, I realize that I didn't word it exactly as I meant to.

I meant to say that Holland has neither pulled off a major trade, nor made an offer on a major RFA. I apologize if my original post implied that I claimed he never made an offer of any kind.

As for an offer I believe Detroit SHOULD have made, but (as far as we know they never even attempted), off the top of my head, they ABSOLUTELY should've signed Shea Weber to an offer sheet that Nashville had no chance to match. I'd trade any player on this roster for a defenseman of his caliber, and that goes double for their prospects.

At forward, past moves I've advocated (yet were not attempted, at least that we know of) were signing Alexander Semin and trading for X.

 

[Claypool]

I beg to differ over guys like Q, E, Smith, Kindl, all guys KH values extremely high

Those defensemen would have only added a slight improvement and the team would be in salary cap hell with no young defensemen in the system.