The way too early standings predictions

[frontsfan67]

It looks like almost everyone has Niagara to finish last. That would give them three last place finishes in a row. How is that even possible? When was the last time that happened in the OHL? If Niagara does finish in last place again, would that make them the worst franchise in OHL history?

They have 2 finals appearances and always lots of fans I don’t think that’s the worst franchise in OHL history just on a really bad stretch right now

 

[OMG67]

Another fun fact:

That year, the OHL was hosting the Memorial Cup. The league decided that the top two teams in each division at the season’s half way point would be eligible to bid. Kitchener needed one win in their last game at the halfway point to jump into 2nd place in their division. Win the game, you get to bid.

You guessed it, that game was against London.

And the Ranger’s lost!!

I remember walking out of the Aud that night in virtual shock.

WOW! That is a horrible story! Something I was not aware of at all. I think that was the 1996 season that Peterborough ended up hosting, correct?

They have 2 finals appearances and always lots of fans I don’t think that’s the worst franchise in OHL history just on a really bad stretch right now

I think most would agree that Niagara has one of the strongest franchises in the OHL. Where people point fingers is how it is run. It reminds me a lot of the finger pointing a for a long stretch in Kingston with Springer. Too much owner involvement and not enough letting hockey professionals sail the ship.

 

[frontsfan67]

WOW! That is a horrible story! Something I was not aware of at all. I think that was the 1996 season that Peterborough ended up hosting, correct?



I think most would agree that Niagara has one of the strongest franchises in the OHL. Where people point fingers is how it is run. It reminds me a lot of the finger pointing a for a long stretch in Kingston with Springer. Too much owner involvement and not enough letting hockey professionals sail the ship.

in my opinion what makes a good franchise is the fan base and the results, not the owner. every owner is the same, runs it as a business and rightfully so its their dollars going into everything. niagara has done a lot of right and some wrong specifically in the front office. but they have a very passionate fanbase and have been to 2 OHL finals in their short time which is nothing short of spectacular.

Had they won one of them I'm sure this would never be a statement. There is several teams who haven't won a championship in more than double the time niagara has been in the league. and some who haven't even been to the finals (kingston and sarnia only I believe)

yes they've sucked since covid has been around however a big part of it is their owners wrong doing resulting in them forfeiting picks etc. they're not the best however imo they're FAR from the worst.

franchise^ meant to add that on at the end

 

[OMG67]

in my opinion what makes a good franchise is the fan base and the results, not the owner. every owner is the same, runs it as a business and rightfully so its their dollars going into everything. niagara has done a lot of right and some wrong specifically in the front office. but they have a very passionate fanbase and have been to 2 OHL finals in their short time which is nothing short of spectacular.

Had they won one of them I'm sure this would never be a statement. There is several teams who haven't won a championship in more than double the time niagara has been in the league. and some who haven't even been to the finals (kingston and sarnia only I believe)

yes they've sucked since covid has been around however a big part of it is their owners wrong doing resulting in them forfeiting picks etc. they're not the best however imo they're FAR from the worst.

franchise^ meant to add that on at the end

There needs to be hope but the current owner doesn’t provide any confidence there is hope. That is the problem.

The extension of that is if the owner continues to be a gong show, the “franchise” may find itself in a much different situation. I believe THAT is what concerns people including their fan base that are mostly embarrassed at how far they’ve fallen in the “respect” category.

This isn’t about a team that has done poorly in the standings while striving for success with the best intentions. This is a situation where the previous ownership were pretty much forced to sell followed by a current owner that has already been sanctioned heavily.

It is not looking very positive for that franchise. It could very well lead to that franchise losing its fan base and all the respect it compiled over many years of solid leadership and dedicated alumni.

 

[dirty12]

There needs to be hope but the current owner doesn’t provide any confidence there is hope. That is the problem.

The extension of that is if the owner continues to be a gong show, the “franchise” may find itself in a much different situation. I believe THAT is what concerns people including their fan base that are mostly embarrassed at how far they’ve fallen in the “respect” category.

This isn’t about a team that has done poorly in the standings while striving for success with the best intentions. This is a situation where the previous ownership were pretty much forced to sell followed by a current owner that has already been sanctioned heavily.

It is not looking very positive for that franchise. It could very well lead to that franchise losing its fan base and all the respect it compiled over many years of solid leadership and dedicated alumni.

Roobroek is signed and as of now Niagara has its 2024-1st. There is hope.
The defense is a wreck. The forwards, goaltending, and pick situation are all good.

The challenge will be acquiring D to make the team competitive while some how developing D that can compliment the 2005-07 born forwards. I don’t know how that can be done without luck. Maybe two trades like Guelph parting with Allen for an over payment of picks and Allen agree to report, and/or Flint’s Allen willing to play for his home town team next season.

 

[GoKnightsGo44]

Roobroek is signed and as of now Niagara has its 2024-1st. There is hope.
The defense is a wreck. The forwards, goaltending, and pick situation are all good.

The challenge will be acquiring D to make the team competitive while some how developing D that can compliment the 2005-07 born forwards. I don’t know how that can be done without luck. Maybe two trades like Guelph parting with Allen for an over payment of picks and Allen agree to report.

The Knights will be parting with a very good OA defensemen, one of McKinnon or Federkow. I am just worried that the reputation for Niagara is bad that the kids may not report?

 

[dirty12]

The Knights will be parting with a very good OA defensemen, one of McKinnon or Federkow. I am just worried that the reputation for Niagara is bad that the kids may not report?

Very good OA D would be Punnett, Mayer, Christopolous. McKinnon or Federkow are probably less than Hache, but solid much like Hislop, Holmes, Sobolev.

 

[GoKnightsGo44]

That is fair, so solid D that will have a roster spot on almost any team.

 

[OMG67]

Roobroek is signed and as of now Niagara has its 2024-1st. There is hope.
The defense is a wreck. The forwards, goaltending, and pick situation are all good.

The challenge will be acquiring D to make the team competitive while some how developing D that can compliment the 2005-07 born forwards. I don’t know how that can be done without luck. Maybe two trades like Guelph parting with Allen for an over payment of picks and Allen agree to report, and/or Flint’s Allen willing to play for his home town team next season.

For now….

But will the same outlook be there in January?

This isn’t about assessing a roster. This is about assessing an owner that has made very bad decisions to date that has caused significant damage. This on the backs of the previous owner making it even more difficult to rebuild credibility. Right now, ownership on Niagara has virtually no credibility. That is some thing they are going to need to rebuild. The question is whether they can.

 

[dirty12]

For now….

But will the same outlook be there in January?

This isn’t about assessing a roster. This is about assessing an owner that has made very bad decisions to date that has caused significant damage. This on the backs of the previous owner making it even more difficult to rebuild credibility. Right now, ownership on Niagara has virtually no credibility. That is some thing they are going to need to rebuild. The question is whether they can.

It is 90% + about the roster/coaches imo. All it takes is a couple of very good players willing to go & stay and a glimmer of team success for things to be good for the Icedogs.
Once again, look at Erie, SSM, Sudbury, Flint, Peterborough …to some it appeared hopeless for all of those franchises. All in a little more than one decade.

 

[OMG67]

It is 90% + about the roster/coaches imo. All it takes is a couple of very good players willing to go & stay and a glimmer of team success for things to be good for the Icedogs.
Once again, look at Erie, SSM, Sudbury, Flint, Peterborough …to some it appeared hopeless for all of those franchises. All in a little more than one decade.

Who hired the coaches and who was the GM until he was sanctioned? That’s the point.

An owner can do a lot of damage when they think they know more than actual professionals that have a proven track record. If he hires people with a proven track record of success and actually lets them run the team then I would agree. He hasn’t proven capable of doing that yet. Maybe he now understands or maybe he is more stubborn. I don’t know him at all.

I am in Ottawa. We saw first hand how a stubborn and overbearing owner can decimate a franchise with Eugene Melnyk. He couldn’t keep anyone of value around after Murray passed. Murray was able to isolate him fairly well for the most part but after he was gone, it was toxic like crazy and that spilled onto the ice. I see some of the same trends with the Ive Dogs right now.

This is not to say that things won’t change. They may very well change. We will need a full year or two of demonstrated ability to set working parameters for competent staff and let that staff maneuver. We’ll see if he can do that. My money is on it not happening. I think he will meddle too much and cramp his staff which will cause friction and eventually departures. But that’s just my gut feeling.

 

[beastintheeast]

WOW! That is a horrible story! Something I was not aware of at all. I think that was the 1996 season that Peterborough ended up hosting, correct?



I think most would agree that Niagara has one of the strongest franchises in the OHL. Where people point fingers is how it is run. It reminds me a lot of the finger pointing a for a long stretch in Kingston with Springer. Too much owner involvement and not enough letting hockey professionals sail the ship.

The Kingston problem was not the owner running the ship as much as having the wrong GM and adviser. Mav was a firm believer in how things should run and how teams should be coached. He just could not let the coaches do their thing. Kingston went through a lot of good coaches because he could not just let the coaches coach.
Consider that Mav fired 2 coaches for making the players accountable, saying they could not coach and would not go anywhere. Jim Hulton went on to be an assistant in Florida and is coaching in the Q,

Anyone want to guess who the other useless coach was??

When talking about bad or worst OHL teams I think Kingston has to be high on the list. They have had some great players but never really gotten anywhere consistently.

 

[beastintheeast]

Who hired the coaches and who was the GM until he was sanctioned? That’s the point.

An owner can do a lot of damage when they think they know more than actual professionals that have a proven track record. If he hires people with a proven track record of success and actually lets them run the team then I would agree. He hasn’t proven capable of doing that yet. Maybe he now understands or maybe he is more stubborn. I don’t know him at all.

I am in Ottawa. We saw first hand how a stubborn and overbearing owner can decimate a franchise with Eugene Melnyk. He couldn’t keep anyone of value around after Murray passed. Murray was able to isolate him fairly well for the most part but after he was gone, it was toxic like crazy and that spilled onto the ice. I see some of the same trends with the Ive Dogs right now.

This is not to say that things won’t change. They may very well change. We will need a full year or two of demonstrated ability to set working parameters for competent staff and let that staff maneuver. We’ll see if he can do that. My money is on it not happening. I think he will meddle too much and cramp his staff which will cause friction and eventually departures. But that’s just my gut feeling.

The 67's also show what can happen if the owners are smart enough to hire the right person and let him do his thing. No one will give Howard or Earl credit for being genius hockey people but they found the right person and let him run the on-ice part of the team.

 

[Squirrel88]

The original question is a good bar question because it is impossible to answer. Sure, Niagara is in chaos mode right now, but so was Flint under Rolf and they seem to be stable and successful now. Kitchener had difficulty getting Brian Bellows to report back in the day and then he won a Mem Cup with the team. For years London had a reputation for under-performing, and set the record for single-season futility that will be difficult to beat, but are now the standard for the CHL.

Niagara has good facilities and community support. I like their chances of outlasting a couple bad owners. Maybe it would be beneficial for more teams to have community-based ownership like Kitchener and Peterborough, although those models have their own challenges.

 

[HockeyPops]

Rolf was never a bad owner. Pretty much all his trouble stemmed from trying to elevate his son.

 

[Millpond]

It looks like almost everyone has Niagara to finish last. That would give them three last place finishes in a row. How is that even possible? When was the last time that happened in the OHL? If Niagara does finish in last place again, would that make them the worst franchise in OHL history?

Mississauga Ice Dogs

 

[three dog night]

My predictions

west
Saginaw
London
Kitchener
Flint
OwenSound
Guelph
Windsor
Sault
Erie
Sarnia
East
Missy
Barrie
Sudbury
Ottawa
Brantford
Kingston
Niagara
North Bay
Peterborugh
Oshawa

 

[RangerNation]

My predictions

west
Saginaw
London
Kitchener
Flint
OwenSound
Guelph
Windsor
Sault
Erie
Sarnia
East
Missy
Barrie
Sudbury
Ottawa
Brantford
Kingston
Niagara
North Bay
Peterborugh
Oshawa

 

[HUSH10]

My predictions

west
Saginaw
London
Kitchener
Flint
OwenSound
Guelph
Windsor
Sault
Erie
Sarnia
East
Missy
Barrie
Sudbury
Ottawa
Brantford
Kingston
Niagara
North Bay
Peterborugh
Oshawa

Worst take yet

 

[SFC]

I respectfully don’t care about the fan database nor follow it for these reasons - it’s often inaccurate.

I know you didn't mean to offend here but I have to correct the record on a few counts.

First, the database is not a "fan" database. It was started by a respected OHL media member and analyst, Peter Kneulman, and when I reformatted it and expanded it, I was working in hockey media as well. It's also been cited by media members on a number of occasions.

Second, the database is, to my knowledge, the most complete and accurate resource of its kind publicly available. It was more accurate than the OHL website at predicting the 2017 draft order. At least when I ran it, I only included information that came from a trusted media or a team source. It's a lot to keep track of and the conditionals in particular are challenging since they're often not disclosed. If you see an error, I invite you to share it with GeneralsUpdates on Twitter.

 

[NOA]

I know you didn't mean to offend here but I have to correct the record on a few counts.

First, the database is not a "fan" database. It was started by a respected OHL media member and analyst, Peter Kneulman, and when I reformatted it and expanded it, I was working in hockey media as well. It's also been cited by media members on a number of occasions.

Second, the database is, to my knowledge, the most complete and accurate resource of its kind publicly available. It was more accurate than the OHL website at predicting the 2017 draft order. At least when I ran it, I only included information that came from a trusted media or a team source. It's a lot to keep track of and the conditionals in particular are challenging since they're often not disclosed. If you see an error, I invite you to share it with GeneralsUpdates on Twitter.

Nope I’m good, I’ll just keep track on my own and follow on my own. Thanks

 

[Lycanthrope]

Sudbury, London, Mississauga have had historically bad stretches. Niagara has attendance at least. I’ve been one of ~850 to see games in London & Sudbury thinking actual attendance might be closer to 500.

Not uncommon in the 80’s. Fun times, had season tickets one year

 

[dirty12]

Not uncommon in the 80’s. Fun times, had season tickets one year

Did you have to ask others to find a seat that was not yours?

 

[SFC]

Nope I’m good, I’ll just keep track on my own and follow on my own. Thanks

God I hate this forum.

 

[Ferguson Jenkins]

delete