The Vision of Kyle Dubas

[dangomon]

Other than the hard cap salary cap

So we shouldn't have signed Matthews at all?

 

[Pookie]

I haven't been overly active on this board in recent months so I may be wrong, but from talking to other Leaf fans and observing the media's take, I feel that the vision Dubas has is going over a lot of people's heads.

He acquired Jake Muzzin without giving up any prime assets. This did help improve our weakness, but he did not overpay to acquire the perfect fit, which would have been a player similar to Muzzin but right-handed. There is no question Muzzin will help our playoff chances this year, but it is widely agreed upon that Muzzin will likely replace Gardiner in next year's lineup. Additionally, it was very wise of him to acquire Muzzin a month or so prior to the deadline as I believe this will optimize his overall value and performance for the team in the long run.

The Nylander and Matthews contracts right now can definitely be seen as overpayments, but in a year or two they will be fair value or bargains. Marner is going to also get overpaid because of this. Tavares was fair value considering he's the best UFA center ever. The way these negotiations have resulted is less than ideal but if you're going to overpay someone, you might as well overpay your top players. The saving grace is that we have a Norris contender at a $5M caphit.

As opposed to spending a 2nd rounder on a 4th line center, Dubas traded Lindholm for Nic Petan, who has potential to become a depth scorer for the team in the future and help with the cap crunch. Ennis has been a good reclamation project. We also have veterans like Marleau and Hainsey who have done their job in helping our young players develop and will be off the books soon. Gardiner, who has proven to be a big-game liability will also be off the books. I believe they are holding out hope on Zaitsev returning to form over time and being a solid top 4. We now have Tavares and Muzzin who are both younger and better than Marleau and Hainsey as veterans who will help in terms of leadership but also help get it done on the ice.

I believe that Dubas doesn't think this is the year, although his acquisitions have undoubtedly bettered our chances for this year. This might be the year we get out of the 1st round, and if we do beat Boston who knows whether that momentum can push us further. This is one of the most skilled teams in the league, but there are teams out there that are far more seasoned and have been in contention for years. We might need more experience to be able to make that deep run all of us want, and I think Dubas recognizes that and that's why he didn't go overboard in rounding out the roster with a 4th line center and players like Simmonds/Ferland which many people were calling for. This group is good enough to do better and he's putting it on them to get it done. If they do, it's one step towards winning a cup in one of the following years.

I wanted Dubas to be more aggressive at the deadline, but I am starting to see his vision. He is disciplined in a long-term approach, trying to round out the team when opportunities come forward but not rushing to do anything drastic. I believe this year is seen as somewhat of another trial year by management to determine what further additions we need going forward, and also to decide on a captain, who I believe will be Tavares.

Lou did us a lot of good and it would have been nice to have had him negotiate the contracts for our young stars, but I'm coming to appreciate the long-term vision Dubas has. I would assume we have many more draft picks than many of the top contenders, so we will continue to fill the ranks with fresh players as the cap crunch ensues.

We have been seeing our forwards develop the past few years, but our D is a little behind although Rielly and Dermott have undoubtedly been bright spots. We still have to see what becomes of Sandin and Liljegren, and now we have a veteran winner like Jake Muzzin to help all of these guys develop in addition to the leadership Rielly brings.

Dubas isn't building something to counteract Boston or anyone else. He's building something sustainable others will need to counteract.

Many of us who are worried about not having what it takes this year need to just sit back and enjoy the ride. This team has a very bright future.

We need to make up our collective minds.

Is there a Shanaplan or a Dubaplan?

 

[4thline]

I would say the math is solid, but your value of 4 RFA years is high.imo
If Matthews only wanted to sign for 4 years taking him straight to UFA, the Leafs would be stupid to give $10.149 per for 4 years and then see him walk.

And if he wanted it and was willing to leave to get it he would, no doubt. Teams have given comparable value for the rental of a lesser player.

 

[Joey Hoser]

We need to make up our collective minds.

Is there a Shanaplan or a Dubaplan?

One is the president and the other the GM and your question is stupid. You don't just pick one to give all the credit or blame to.

 

[RLF]

And if he wanted it and was willing to leave to get it he would, no doubt. Teams have given comparable value for the rental of a lesser player.

Yes he could sign an offer sheet if one exists, but if teams based all contracts on what an offer sheet would be, we wouldn`t see the deals we have being seeing as low as they are and bridge deals wouldn`t exist. All contracts for RFA`s would be higher than what we have seen. RFA years are not based on `what if he got an offer sheet.``

 

[4thline]

Exactly, if McDavid is the ceiling as 100+ point player and award winner and comparable using 8 X $12.5 mil then Matthews at $11.634 X 8 years makes logical sense..

News Article: - Has Matthews Plateaud? by Bruce Arthur -- Mod warning post #127
Salary Cap: - Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

There's probably a half dozen more posts of you arguing for 12.45x8. Funny how that changed once it became obvious that it doesn't check out with the 5 year ave you now want to hold up

 

[4thline]

Yes he could sign an offer sheet if one exists, but if teams based all contracts on what an offer sheet would be, we wouldn`t see the deals we have being seeing as low as they are and bridge deals wouldn`t exist. All contracts for RFA`s would be higher than what we have seen. RFA years are not based on `what if he got an offer sheet.``

For most players it's not a viable option, the relationship of quality of player, acquisition cost, acquisition cap hit, and chance of success never line up. For Matthews they do. For Marner they do.

Nylander almost certainly tried to play the card and came up dry/ Dubas called the bluff. I think it says something that the Leafs didnt let this go the distance

 

[RLF]

For most players it's not a viable option, the relationship of quality of player, acquisition cost, acquisition cap hit, and chance of success never line up. For Matthews they do. For Marner they do.

Nylander almost certainly tried to play the card and came up dry/ Dubas called the bluff. I think it says something that the Leafs didnt let this go the distance

A guy like Kap may only cost you a 2nd in compensation for a quality contract amount offer sheet. They all line up based on dollars signed for ie; quality of player. Does that mean the Leafs will give Kap 5X$4M, not necessarily. Historically, contracts do not get handed out based on fear of offer sheet amount. What do you think teams would have given McDavid? You don't think they would have topped what he got. Why didn't EDM give him more just in case?

 

[4thline]

A guy like Kap may only cost you a 2nd in compensation for a quality contract amount offer sheet. They all line up based on dollars signed for ie; quality of player. Does that mean the Leafs will give Kap 5X$4M, not necessarily. Historically, contracts do not get handed out based on fear of offer sheet amount. What do you think teams would have given McDavid? You don't think they would have topped what he got. Why didn't EDM give him more just in case?

Because clearly they didn't have to. He could have gotten more if we wanted it.

Kasperi Kapanen is not Auston Matthews, but there are already rumours circling. Kapanen will likely have a choice to make, he can leverage the OS but you can't draw blood from a stone, and he's pretty far down the line of importance

 

[Pookie]

One is the president and the other the GM and your question is stupid. You don't just pick one to give all the credit or blame to.

Sorry you didn't understand... walk with me.

The thread is called the "Vision OF KYLE DUBAS" ... we need to first understand if he has been hired to implement a Vision or create his own.

If he's working off the vision of the President (who is likely working off the Vision of the Board), we simply need to know if he is good at implementing it. Contract negotiations and such.

If he's creating it on his own, we can evaluate the "Vision OF KYLE DUBAS".... and then question what in the hell is Shanahan doing?

 

[thewave]

This is just a guesstimate. But if you make McDavid's contract only 5 years, losing 3 bought UFA years, I would think you are looking at 5 years $10M-$10.5M as most would be RFA years in the contract. It could be easily argued that Matthews 5 years is at a higher rate than what McDavid's comparable 5 year contract would have been.

I think PPP did an article and came up with around 10-10.5m so yeah you're about on the money.

 

[Menzinger]

Sorry you didn't understand... walk with me.

The thread is called the "Vision OF KYLE DUBAS" ... we need to first understand if he has been hired to implement a Vision or create his own.

If he's working off the vision of the President (who is likely working off the Vision of the Board), we simply need to know if he is good at implementing it. Contract negotiations and such.

If he's creating it on his own, we can evaluate the "Vision OF KYLE DUBAS".... and then question what in the hell is Shanahan doing?

I don’t think it’s necessarily as clear cut as that, there’s definitely going to be some blurred lines.

It’s fairly clear both guys share similar values/idea about the direction of the team and that ultimately Shanahan has confidence in Dubas getting the job done. Now whether that means it’s part of the “Shanahaplan” or it stems from Dubas’ vision: well that’s essentially splitting hairs imo

 

[killer1980]

So we shouldn't have signed Matthews at all?

Not for all that money and for that long. Marner is much more valuable and deserves the money, more time and more respect.

 

[Sittler 27]

Mathews overpaid, Marner will hurt, keeping Sparks, boy wonder is boy blunder. Preferred last years team

 

[Cor]

Got rid of our best RHD and the best backup goalie we had to keep Holl and Sparks on the roster.

I think he’s done some awesome things, and he’s the right guy for the job, but there’s some things that are hurting us right now.

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

Maybe give it more than one @$#?&% season before judging.

We really are the worst, most unappreciative fanbase in hockey. This is a pathetic way for a fanbase to act when we have the most talented group of stars we've had in decades. Pathetic. It literally makes me angry.

Would we rather go back to the Burke/Nonis days? No? Shut up then and let this team grow and put it together even it takes another year or two or three.

 

[yubbers]

For most players it's not a viable option, the relationship of quality of player, acquisition cost, acquisition cap hit, and chance of success never line up. For Matthews they do. For Marner they do.

Nylander almost certainly tried to play the card and came up dry/ Dubas called the bluff. I think it says something that the Leafs didnt let this go the distance

Dubas called no bluffs. He had a player break a record for holding out in the cap era and then folded. What was willy asking for 8?8.5? If that was the case Dubas should've laughed in his face and moved him.

 

[BigBlu]

the vision:

 

[Pookie]

I don’t think it’s necessarily as clear cut as that, there’s definitely going to be some blurred lines.

It’s fairly clear both guys share similar values/idea about the direction of the team and that ultimately Shanahan has confidence in Dubas getting the job done. Now whether that means it’s part of the “Shanahaplan” or it stems from Dubas’ vision: well that’s essentially splitting hairs imo

Indeed.

In reality, I would expect that all members of the management team have input into decisions and direction. From coaches to GM to scouts to senior execs in Rogers and Bell. They talk. They decide. Senior folks hold power. And they walk out of the meeting and get it done.

Which is why it is silly to talk about Dubas’ vision.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Hope his vision includes a new backup goalie.

 

[The CyNick]

Cloudy vision when it comes to evaluating goalies.

Maybe he needs new glasses.

 

[BlueStorm]

Dumbass and his team are a joke. Hopefully he gets fired and they trade the $7 million fan boy for a bag of used pucks.

 

[Jozay]

He botched the goalie thing and he admitted he should've handled it better.

Im glad he's keeping Keefe in the organization to eventually replace Babcock though.

 

[Anthrax442]

He botched the goalie thing and he admitted he should've handled it better.

Im glad he's keeping Keefe in the organization to eventually replace Babcock though.

Sooner the better

 

[PromisedLand]

Dubas vision:

he played this as a kid; scored 200 pts with phaneuf and thinks thats how "real hockey" works