Rollie Melanson is the goalie coach and he is here most every week. He is doing just fine with Thatcher. He is already a lot less active and has not been nearly as vulnerable to the high glove side lately. Again Rollie at work. His struggle is a lot less than most seem to imply. He's a rookie in a much tougher environment than he has ever been in before. He is holding his own and and there is a long way to go. This kid will be A-OK.
The Utica Comets Thread | Part 38
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Rollie Melanson is the goalie coach and he is here most every week. He is doing just fine with Thatcher. He is already a lot less active and has not been nearly as vulnerable to the high glove side lately. Again Rollie at work. His struggle is a lot less than most seem to imply. He's a rookie in a much tougher environment than he has ever been in before. He is holding his own and and there is a long way to go. This kid will be A-OK.
Going to break the quotes into parts because odds are the post will become too long with quotes...
First Demko got his run due to an injury despite clearly being the better goalie at the start of the year (and honestly the one that matters in terms of development). Now i don't disagree with a rookie goalie possibility playing less due to... well the fact he's a rookie but i would be targeting probably a 60/40 split not a 50/50 split because of the simple fact that Demko is the "future".
A run is important so if a goalie gets hot, sure let them play... if its the NHL. This is AHL hockey so more focus should be with development. That's why i'm fine with Miller getting majority of the games recently (because he has been the 'nucks best player). Although part of me still prefer Markstrom playing because... well being realistic we might want to focus on development at the NHL level and give up this season (given the remaining schedule its unlikely we make the playoffs but thats another topic).
Also a lower body injury vs a flu is quite different. Sure a flu can take a lot out of your body but as we've seen with professional athletes, they recover much faster than your average person. I don't remember the last time a hockey player was out 2 weeks due to a "flu". Fact is Demko played 3 games in all of Jan out of Utica's 12 games (13 if you count Hartford). He actually played great in the first 2 and the last one... well if you don't play in 2 weeks i guess you can use being rusty as an excuse.
also note its not the number of games that matters as much vs continuous play while healthy. Schneider only played 36 games in his rookie season but he played majority int he 2nd half and all the playoff games. That was due to the fact that MacIntyre was actually a decent goalie and a "prospect" or at least possible backup for the 'nucks at the time. That and there was and adjustment period for Schneider (and playing poorly at the start). So the season started with him playing about 1/3 and ended with him playing ~2/3 + 100% of the playoff games.
Denko is actually trending the opposite in terms of usage. Instead of starting him off slow (getting him used to AHL hockey), he actually got put into basically a starter role early (and played great until 'nucks called him up) then placed back into a backup role. That ideal for his development because he should be getting used to a higher workload over the course of the season... not reduced workload because an AHL journeymen got hot.
I didn't agree with calling demko up because he was hot when he was called up and there was no plan on playing him... and now i don't agree with his playing time so the problem is more than just Green but Green is a part of the problem and that's probably why he gets away with it. Benning probably doesn't even know what's going on in Utica since so far he hasn't shown any reason why we should give him the benefit of the doubt (and again one of the reasons i prefer our AHL team being closer, its harder to ignore developmental problems when more fans know about it/more pressure by fans to do something about it).
Also note on Schneider (since Demko will always be compared to him while in our organization), he moved up to 40 and 60 games in his next 2 years. 40 games only because he played 8 games for the 'nucks in his 2nd year. So if we're following that trend, next year, Demko should at least be getting 50 games (unless he gets hurt). Again note the biggest problem isn't the number of games but rather the trend. Instead of increasing workload, Green has been reducing his workload!
Additional reference, Lack played 53 games in his rookie year, 46 in his 2nd year (due to injury). So compared to our recent goalies, Demko might end up playing the lowest amount of games.
First its not all about ice time or who the player plays with Part of developing player is letting them learn from their mistakes not hiding them in the 3rd/4th line so you can win more games. Corrado for example did not improve at all during the year so despite the fact he was probably the best D on Utica, he didn't actually get any better.
Archibald was considered a prospect but not a blue chip prospect nor someone to force feed minutes to because... well he was a UDFA. There were quite a few drafted players on the team including some first round picks like you mentioned.
Not sure if Jensen actually had a problem with the demotion or his role. As i remembered it he wasn't productive right away and got dropped to the 3rd line very quickly.
Alain Vigneault for example actually got his players to buy into his system rather quickly when he was with the Moose and focus more on development than feeding minutes so he might have a better chance @ a NHL job (tho he got it pretty much right away anyways). The fact a player doesn't buy into a system isn't an excuse but rather the coach could be part of the problem.
Jensen is actually a perfect example of someone who's much better with a different coach/system. He showed that last night that he's a much better player now. It proves that he was probably mis-used by Green when he was here and before you give Green credit for his foundation, remember he was better with Hartford right away even last year (and played about the same amount of games for both teams while Green had multiple years + pre-season with him). The more time Jensen has spent with Hartford, the better he has been. I pretty much watched last night just to see the difference with him now vs last year (was actually cheering for him just as much as our prospects, again i'm a nuck fan so Utica fan by association so there are times that i might cheer against Utica... more so if Bachman is the goalie and not Demko).
Friesen i agreed looked slow right away so he probably didn't matter after a few games (as in a coach would know probably to send him to ECHL so he can work on his foot speed).
As far as forgotten prospect, you forgot Henrik Tommernes, who when he came over, was considered a pretty good offensive D. Green really didn't play him as much as he should've and he pretty much left in the middle of his 2nd season. He's having a great year with Frolunda now and actually scored more in 40 games there this year than his 1+ season in Utica (just to prove how mis-used he was). This isn't to say there wasn't flaws in his game but because Utica had other Ds, he was basically got moved to 3rd pairing and didn't always play. Instead of him playing, Huskin and Mullen got a lot of the playing time that probably should've went to Tommernes.
Andersson was still there then too and at one point was considered a good prospect (as in good 2 way D) but again never developed into much. Sauve was a raw prospect who i believe was a 1st overall pick in Jr and at one point was considered great value for a 2nd round pick... again no improvement in Chicago/Utica.
Also note that Mallet was on that team and was a prospect at one point before Benning gave up on him (tho he wasn't a good pick, he was pretty much given 3rd/4th line minutes while being a former 2nd round pick).
During that year, the top 6 basically had 3x 26+ year old in Pelletier, O'Reilly, and Ferriero. I believe Hamill also had some time there and so did Colin Stuart. In a developmental world, odds are players like Grenier, Jensen, etc would've been given more chances to play in top 6 roles.
First Demko got his run due to an injury despite clearly being the better goalie at the start of the year (and honestly the one that matters in terms of development). Now i don't disagree with a rookie goalie possibility playing less due to... well the fact he's a rookie but i would be targeting probably a 60/40 split not a 50/50 split because of the simple fact that Demko is the "future".
A run is important so if a goalie gets hot, sure let them play... if its the NHL. This is AHL hockey so more focus should be with development. That's why i'm fine with Miller getting majority of the games recently (because he has been the 'nucks best player). Although part of me still prefer Markstrom playing because... well being realistic we might want to focus on development at the NHL level and give up this season (given the remaining schedule its unlikely we make the playoffs but thats another topic).
Also a lower body injury vs a flu is quite different. Sure a flu can take a lot out of your body but as we've seen with professional athletes, they recover much faster than your average person. I don't remember the last time a hockey player was out 2 weeks due to a "flu". Fact is Demko played 3 games in all of Jan out of Utica's 12 games (13 if you count Hartford). He actually played great in the first 2 and the last one... well if you don't play in 2 weeks i guess you can use being rusty as an excuse.
also note its not the number of games that matters as much vs continuous play while healthy. Schneider only played 36 games in his rookie season but he played majority int he 2nd half and all the playoff games. That was due to the fact that MacIntyre was actually a decent goalie and a "prospect" or at least possible backup for the 'nucks at the time. That and there was and adjustment period for Schneider (and playing poorly at the start). So the season started with him playing about 1/3 and ended with him playing ~2/3 + 100% of the playoff games.
Denko is actually trending the opposite in terms of usage. Instead of starting him off slow (getting him used to AHL hockey), he actually got put into basically a starter role early (and played great until 'nucks called him up) then placed back into a backup role. That ideal for his development because he should be getting used to a higher workload over the course of the season... not reduced workload because an AHL journeymen got hot.
I didn't agree with calling demko up because he was hot when he was called up and there was no plan on playing him... and now i don't agree with his playing time so the problem is more than just Green but Green is a part of the problem and that's probably why he gets away with it. Benning probably doesn't even know what's going on in Utica since so far he hasn't shown any reason why we should give him the benefit of the doubt (and again one of the reasons i prefer our AHL team being closer, its harder to ignore developmental problems when more fans know about it/more pressure by fans to do something about it).
Also note on Schneider (since Demko will always be compared to him while in our organization), he moved up to 40 and 60 games in his next 2 years. 40 games only because he played 8 games for the 'nucks in his 2nd year. So if we're following that trend, next year, Demko should at least be getting 50 games (unless he gets hurt). Again note the biggest problem isn't the number of games but rather the trend. Instead of increasing workload, Green has been reducing his workload!
Additional reference, Lack played 53 games in his rookie year, 46 in his 2nd year (due to injury). So compared to our recent goalies, Demko might end up playing the lowest amount of games.
First its not all about ice time or who the player plays with Part of developing player is letting them learn from their mistakes not hiding them in the 3rd/4th line so you can win more games. Corrado for example did not improve at all during the year so despite the fact he was probably the best D on Utica, he didn't actually get any better.
Archibald was considered a prospect but not a blue chip prospect nor someone to force feed minutes to because... well he was a UDFA. There were quite a few drafted players on the team including some first round picks like you mentioned.
Not sure if Jensen actually had a problem with the demotion or his role. As i remembered it he wasn't productive right away and got dropped to the 3rd line very quickly.
Alain Vigneault for example actually got his players to buy into his system rather quickly when he was with the Moose and focus more on development than feeding minutes so he might have a better chance @ a NHL job (tho he got it pretty much right away anyways). The fact a player doesn't buy into a system isn't an excuse but rather the coach could be part of the problem.
Jensen is actually a perfect example of someone who's much better with a different coach/system. He showed that last night that he's a much better player now. It proves that he was probably mis-used by Green when he was here and before you give Green credit for his foundation, remember he was better with Hartford right away even last year (and played about the same amount of games for both teams while Green had multiple years + pre-season with him). The more time Jensen has spent with Hartford, the better he has been. I pretty much watched last night just to see the difference with him now vs last year (was actually cheering for him just as much as our prospects, again i'm a nuck fan so Utica fan by association so there are times that i might cheer against Utica... more so if Bachman is the goalie and not Demko).
Friesen i agreed looked slow right away so he probably didn't matter after a few games (as in a coach would know probably to send him to ECHL so he can work on his foot speed).
As far as forgotten prospect, you forgot Henrik Tommernes, who when he came over, was considered a pretty good offensive D. Green really didn't play him as much as he should've and he pretty much left in the middle of his 2nd season. He's having a great year with Frolunda now and actually scored more in 40 games there this year than his 1+ season in Utica (just to prove how mis-used he was). This isn't to say there wasn't flaws in his game but because Utica had other Ds, he was basically got moved to 3rd pairing and didn't always play. Instead of him playing, Huskin and Mullen got a lot of the playing time that probably should've went to Tommernes.
Andersson was still there then too and at one point was considered a good prospect (as in good 2 way D) but again never developed into much. Sauve was a raw prospect who i believe was a 1st overall pick in Jr and at one point was considered great value for a 2nd round pick... again no improvement in Chicago/Utica.
Also note that Mallet was on that team and was a prospect at one point before Benning gave up on him (tho he wasn't a good pick, he was pretty much given 3rd/4th line minutes while being a former 2nd round pick).
During that year, the top 6 basically had 3x 26+ year old in Pelletier, O'Reilly, and Ferriero. I believe Hamill also had some time there and so did Colin Stuart. In a developmental world, odds are players like Grenier, Jensen, etc would've been given more chances to play in top 6 roles.
I don't know how overrated he really is. Comet fans for the most part seem to think he's doing a great job and to them, that's probably correct. I'm thinking a lot of 'nucks fan are realizing that Utica hasn't really produced anything for the main team in 4 years so they probably aren't as high on Green (as they were 2 years ago).
Of course when compared to WD, i think most 'nucks fan will prefer just about anyone over WD at this point. You probably can pick a random poster on the forum and fans would be happy if that person became our coach as long as WD gets fired...Of course a few games later, the same fans will want that coach fired.
Personally i wouldn't mind Green being our coach @ the NHL level but i'm at the point where i want him gone in the AHL level as soon as we leave Utica (sooner if we stay in Utica for more than 1 year). He seems to have good support in Utica so if we're only staying 1 more year, then he should finish what he started (and hopefully Utica ends with a championship). Again this is due to his track record or lack of record on development.
Also again i agree that Utica probably hasn't had a lot of prospects to work with but Jensen is a prime example of Green failing to develop what he had. Jensen looked so much better in Hartford than he did in Utica. HS also looks better for the Heats than he did for the Comets (tho he was looking good for the Comets before the trade).
Its not just prospects either, Taylor Fedun has looked good for the Sabres this year and has been more productive with both Worcester Sharks/OCK Barons (before Utica) and Rochester (now). So Green doesn't always get the most out of his players, he does for some players but not always
There's also example of players just not developing at all. Kenins for example was actually better for 'nucks than Utica (roughly same number of games during his rookie year) and regressed last year (partly because of injury but at the same time i don't think utica/Green helped at all). He's actually worst now than he was before he signed with us (he resigned with Zurich and has less points than his rookie year in Swiss A). Virtanen looks like he'll be another player ruined by the organization (like Kenins and not just Utica but the whole organization which includes Utica) because his stock has been dropping and dropping pretty quickly the last 2 years (or i guess mostly since World Jr last year).
Stay in your world that considers nothing but your own opinion.
You are the one that brought up Hutton not playing when I guess you thought he should have. You also stated that Virtanen wasn't used in the playoffs. I responded to that.
The reason for the info on the 2015 playoff D explains why Hutton didn't play and probably shouldn't have at that time.
Of course there is truth in this but again where are the success stories? All we have so far are players like Cassels and Virtanen being flops and Shinkaruk/Jensen shipped out of town because Green didn't like them. Guys like Carcone looked reallly good in pre-season but haven't developed under Green.
The guys who have succeeded under Green are AHL vets or goalies. Or ECHL surprises I guess. Do we credit Green with Valk's season this year? I guess. I'm not looking to run down Green, I'm just asking for what his success stories are that has led to this reputation he seems to have for being great at developing prospects.
You can say GIGO but at some point you expect a 4th round pick or someone to surprise you, to develop better than expected. Especially if Green is some kind of wizard. We have had some surprises with Hutton, Stecher and Tryamkin but none of them did much under Green.
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Pip
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Completely agree.
The management here has not given Utica much to work with, and I feel for Utica fans for not really having any quality exciting young players to cheer for.
But I don't see the supposed magic that Green works with his players at all. He prefers vets to a fault (Hutton sitting, now Demko sitting) and I don't see him giving young guys much of a chance in what is mostly a development league. Management up here being awful doesn't absolve Green to me - I wouldn't want him to be the next Canucks coach at all. The whole situation is frustrating, from Benning to Willie D to Green himself.
I'll say this one last time. Demko is not "SITTING". He was sick and had to get better. While he was recovering, Bachman carried the team on their best run of the season. Thatcher had a similar run earlier in the season due to a Bachman injury. The rotation is back in order.
Hutton had 4 games in the 10 played after he arrived three years ago at the end of the season just prior to the playoffs. The team then played into the finals and had the best D in the playoffs. Benning moved Hutton out just before the playoffs started. Green is not a bad coach with no desire to play the kids. Look at my previous novel showing that in detail.
Again, list for me all these kids he hasn't played in his 4 seasons here. You act like the roster has been packed with great prospects that he single handedly prevented form getting to the NHL. Every top prospect has been in Vancouver with little or no time at all in Utica. The "prospects" he had were never considered to be sure things. Most have been hopes and a prayer to maybe make the NHL roster. The best we had was trending just like you would have liked and he was immediately traded. They blow up Virtanen, send his shell here, and after 30 games it's Green's fault for not having him NHL ready again?
Who else is not being developed this season? Cassels? Man, you need to watch this guy up close and personal, for a couple weeks and that's the last we would here about his promise.
Carcone? This is another gem Benning dug up. Skates 20 miles a game. Gets knocked down or falls down the same number of times. Can't hit a bull in the *** with a scoop shovel passing or shooting. Has played 33 of the team's 43 games and has 1 goal. I don't understand. he has only one goal and he is getting a regular shift with Cassels with the play making wizard Cassels who is even more amazing with his 7 points in 37 GP. At least he's scored 5 goals but where are all the assists he should be piling up with his play making to scorers like Carcone and Rendulic.
You can't make somebody into something they aren't. Talent has to go into the project and when it doesn't appear, that's that.
As far as the teams go, what Green has accomplished with the crap he's been handed in 3 of his 4 seasons is quite impressive. If you run down those rosters and see something more than I do, more power to you good sir.
That's the main reason questionable kids can't get the best environment to grow in. There hasn't been a bona fide center here in 2 seasons. That's how growing wingers get their best shot at producing the numbers you can't understand they don't get.
Friesen got 10 points centering Baertschi in the big playoff run. Sven put up points, but somehow Freisen's numbers didn't keep up. Friesen was Kenin's center most of last year. He and Kenins got top line ice time here and both played on the PP. They failed to make good on their opportunities. Why not? Because they were not talented enough to handle their roles. Since leaving the Comets Friesen's numbers are in the toilet with the high flying Chicago Wolves, 8 points in 48 GP. Kenins is not doing well back in Europe. The players have to do their part. A coach can lead the horse to water. You know the rest.
Our lines of thinking will never mesh so I agree to disagree.
We are fighting a losing battle. I can handle the Vancouver crowd who is acting on numbers and personal belief systems without actually watching these guys game after game and for some of us at practice as well, but now even some of our own who see these guys every night appear to be turning on us now. LOL
If the only prospects he can "develop" are "sure things" then how much of a great developer is he?
There should be guys who are NOT sure things who have made big strides under him and are doing a lot better than anyone expected. Who are these players?
Never said he was a bad coach or not able to win at the AHL level. That's not the discussion we are having.
Your feelings on what "development" means will never equate to what i see it as so I will not respond to any opinions you post about developmental theories. You will also find that everything you think doesn't happen on any AHL developmental teams because of the reasons you think.
Again there's a difference with just playing and developing a player. Just because you throw them out there with random players doesn't mean they'll improve. Part of the problem was player development. Corrado was one of the better D on the team (tho since Sanguinetti was there, he was probably the best D on the team). Still the big problem with Corrado wasn't his playing time but rather his development.
HS was playing on the 3rd and 4th line most of the season so yes he played but he was being played like Virtanen is now... basically he was being "protected" by defensive players instead of learning from his mistakes and playing with skilled players grooming him for a top 6 role.
Jensen saw more top 6 time this season but was still used in the 3rd line as often as the 2nd line. Again top 6 was mostly AHL vets/journeymen instead of prospects despite the fact Gaunce, Jensen, HS were on the team. Also note that Clendening joined the team and was better with Rockford than with Utica (again usage problem or system problem with Green as there are often players that played better before arriving and after leaving). Of course since he only played 34 games, the sample size was small but he was a decent prospect at one point and did have a 59 point season the year before (and serving as a depth D now).
Also at this point Friesen probably shouldn't be considered a prospect anymore so his production is more along the lines of AHL journeymen vs prospect. Yes he was under contract but it has reached a point where i think most 'nucks fan gave up on him (and since Benning didn't resign him, it would suggest the organization no longer saw him as a prospect). Remember players like Archibald/Lain/Friesen were part of MG era and probably players that Benning wouldn't have signed so their prospect stock probably disappeared as soon as he was hired (probably why Archibald still doesn't have a contract or how Z didn't get one last year till we needed a forward).
HS had a decent year so nothing to say about that. Gaunce on the other hand pretty much earned his ice time so he wasn't playing because he was a prospect but rather he was the best option for Green. As stated Green wants to put the best team out there to win, not really focus on development so just because Gaunce got to play a lot... it doesn't actually prove that Green was doing him or the 'nucks any favor. Can you argue someone over Gaunce's spot last year?
C/L depth had Banucks (AHL journeymen who never scored > 20 pts until last year), HS, Zalewski (who was in the top 6 all year), Friesen, Archibald, Jones, Hamilton, and Vey/Higgins for a period of time and Kenins for a period of time. Also i guess Lebate plays LW. Basically Gaunce got his playing time because he was the best option not because he was a prospect so this isn't really an argument for Green playing prospects more rather its his best chance @ winning if that prospect plays more. The same reason Corrado got a lot of playing time.
But both Gaunce and Corrado really did NOT improve a lot while playing for Green. Sure Gaunce got a little better each year and his production increased. But his production increase was really a by-product of Utica having less depth and him being given more playing time.
Also due to the lack of depth, Grenier was basically the best forward option to be used. He's one of the older players and i don't think you can consider him a prospect considering he has been on waivers (@ the start of the season). Basically he's more of a AHL journeymen at this point vs a prospect. I don't think too many 'nucks fan still think of him as a prospect and probably all gave up on him as a prospect last year already so his playing time is similar to Gaunce in that it gives Green the best chance of winning not really development.
Jensen also moved up because uhh... refer to the forward depth i mentioned. I left him out because he plays on RW (while HS plays both). He was better last season after the trade so once again i refer to my argument about just playing vs correct usage. Also as seen, he plays much better for Hartford than for Utica... and this is just 1 season later so he's the best example of misused by Green right now.
Cassels played... on the 4th line pretty much all season. So yes he played but i wouldn't call AHL 4th line being a position to succeed... More so when you consider Utica isn't a deep team so he's basically playing with a who's who of AHL unknowns.
I didn't agree with not signing Z but the fact Z got so much playing time actually goes against your argument for Green. Z was under AHL contract and basically someone 'nucks gave up on. Instead of giving his playing time/top 6 minutes to a prospect, he was basically given 1st line minutes (for a while before he got his contract). Now i won't argue he was probably the best forward in Utica (at least most complete) because i think he was but the organization gave up on him so Green was playing him due to his own agenda, not for the benefit of the organization (at least if the focus was on development!).
Of course during this season, its the only time Green's top 6 consist of 50% prospects rather than majority AHLers and that lasted until Benning traded away 2 of the prospects. Sure you can say Utica hasn't gotten much to work with but i really doubt any other AHL team would have THAT many AHL Journeymen in top 6 roles for 4 seasons regardless of what they have to work with.
As far as Subban and PEdan being given opportunities... the same question i've asked so many other times in my last 2 posts... what were Green's other options again?
The sample answer, Fedun and he's better with Buffalo this year than with Green (again better coaching vs just playing a player). The other Ds last year? Jon Landry, Travis Ehrhardt, Ashton Sautner, John Negrin.
All of them got playing time instead of Evan McEnemy... who this year is one of the better Ds for Utica. Is this an example of Green knowing how to use a player or developing players or rather he was playing the best line-up for him to win games (in his opinion) or basically more Vets unless he's sure a prospect is better than the vet in question.
Negrin is a AHL journeymen (or basically a AHL 7th D) and wasn't even all that good last year so McEneny probably should've been ahead of him last year. This year there's no doubt who's the better D. McEneny was also under contract with us and more of a prospect so anyway you look at it, the right thing was probably for McEneny to play (so this is an example of both Green having his own agenda and misjudge of talent).
If you look at that list of D, is there any option for Green over Subban in terms of offensive situation? Are any of the D i listed any better? When Beiga was down there, he was given #1 D minutes but he wasn't there often so i left him off the list (and honestly since Beiga was in the plans with us, its fine for him to get a ton of ice time to keep him sharp).
Grenier - refer to above... is there anyone better than him offensively in Utica? Is he really a prospect at this point?
Valk - Guess what he was actually with Utica for a few years already so his sudden raise might be a bit of a shock but the year before he actually had 6 points in 12 games. He was an offensive player who i actually thought should've been given a look last year (or more of a look) because we didn't really have any options in terms of offensive centers (outside Gaunce). I would've preferred him playing over Hamilton/Jones as the 2nd lie C just because he has a higher offensive skill set.Also younger than Friesen who at this point, i think the organization already gave up on (as in 2015-2016 season).
Valk now gets top line minutes because... guess what the other options are? Pelleiter, who seems to be now regaining his form. I guess Zalewski can play center too but he was hurt and basically just getting back to form. Hamilton (who has been the 3rd line C pretty much all year) and Cassels are the other Cs on the team. So Valk is basically a blessing for Green and probably should've played more the season before (more so if the focus was on development vs winning/trying to get a NHL coaching gag).
Subban - same thing i said earlier about the lack of option. McEneny, again if the focus was development, he should've been with Utica the season before not this year. He is emerging but why should Green get any credit for this considering he wasn't part of Utica the season before when he probably should've?
Cassels is on the 4th line. His development is slow and i wonder if he would've been better off under another coach/system/organization. He was considered a decent prospect and in his 2nd pro season, he's playing on the 4th line + PK... if the focus is on development, he should at least be on the 3rd line and playing in all situations.
Carcone - He's going to be Valk part 2... his offensive skillset is higher than a lot of players on the team. Sure he has flaws in his game too but if the focus was on development, he should be in the top 6, not on the 4th line. The "lots of ice time" reminds me of Trump + *insert huge line here*. I don't mind him playing with Cassels but would rather he be playing MORE minutes in better offensive situations. Honestly i don't even mind his line too much since Roy was at one point considered a decent prospect but i would rather the whole line be the 3rd line, not the 4th line. Of course i haven't seen Roy much so i might change my mind with him as a line-mate. Realistically tho i would rather Carcone and Virtanen to both be in the top 6 and see what they can do.
As far as what coaches are suppose to do, NHL coach generally focuses on winning but not always. If your team is out of contention then you might want to focus on development vs winning. AHL coach is debatable what you focus on. Some teams want to focus on creating a winning culture so winning is important while others focus more on development and putting prospects in a situation where they can succeed even if the AHL team loses. I can't think of any team that seems to use AHLers in the top 6 more often than Green.
As a 'nuck fan, i really don't care as much about Utica winning vs development. The winning culture argument might be important if part of the winning culture is your prospect playing a big part of the winning... not them playing on the 3rd and 4th line.
Also like i mentioned earlier about the Demko/Bachman split, its not so much the # of games. I'm fine with the split right now if Demko is getting 1/2 or more of recent games and probably 2/3 of the remaining games (as in build-up his workload vs reducing his workload). I listed examples earlier.
As far as prospects being small in number, you're correct but the success rate is basically 1 out of ALL the prospects. Good luck finding another team beside the Chicago Wolves who have a lower success rate. And the reason we are no longer using Chicago? We want to own our farm team for better developmental control. Instead we're development at the same rate as Chicago while actually having LESS resources than when Chicago was our AHL team.
Remember Chicago can afford to pay 1-way contracts (or pay some/all of the AHL part of 2 way contracts) for quality AHLers because of the simple fact they are a big market so they are even more profitable than Utica. Of course the problem with that is their #1 priority is winning (after all they need to win to make $) meaning development wasn't (and still isn't) ideal. Of course if we draft like say the Blackhawks, then it won't matter as much because development and winning would likely mean the same players... sadly our asset management is no where near that level.
UticaHockey
Registered User
I agree that Green gets the most out of a weak lineup and the grinding lunch bucket types excel in his system. He is a good coach in that regard but that doesn't necessarily equate to being a good developer of NHL talent.
I guess I started a ****show here because I do not believe in the assumption that boy the Comets could really use Jensen's 20 goals right now because I have plenty of doubts that he would be that productive in Utica under Green.
There just seems to be too many underperforming players under Green to consider him a great developer of talent. Borna Rendulic is another example of a player that has gone nowhere in Utica. He came to us after a 16 goal and 38 point season and currently has 4 goals and 7 points.
The players that do well are older AHL lifers and pure grinders with limited offensive upside.
I understand that Vancouver hasn't given him that much to work with but this is a results oriented business and if he is to be graded by the number of players he turned into NHL regulars the grade would be rather low.
That's true but your feelings are tainted in the sense Utica is your team so i agree we will likely never agree because our priority is different.
Like i said, i don't care too much about Utica winning (of course i would rather they win vs lose) but i care more about how the prospect are doing and given the opportunity to succeed. In another word, Virtanen/other prospects being given bigger roles (or in the past Jensen, HS when he was a rookie, etc).
While for you, the important thing is getting into the playoffs/winning because fact is, if a prospect graduates, you're less likely to follow them at all. My guess is you watch as many (or less) 'nuck games as i watch Utica games. Also like i said, last night i watched Utica's game really because i wanted to watch Jensen. I don't watch majority of Utica's games (i think i might have watch parts of ~20 and 5 or so full games all year, plus highlights for every game). Generally i watch more full games than this year but its the samething every year, i watch probably 1/2 the games (part or full) of our AHL team and thats it (more during playoff run).
As far as theories goes, for the most part the Red Wings will actually put their prospects in the 2nd or 3rd line right away. Pulkkinen pretty much spent his first year on the 1st/2nd line. Tatar started on the 3rd line and moved up to the 2nd line by the end of his rookie year. Abdelkader pretty much started off on the 2nd line right away as well.
This year Svechnikov moves around between the 3rd and 2nd line (as a 19 year old). My guess is by the end of the year he'll be on the 2nd line full time.
How many professional athletes miss 2 weeks from the flu? He was sitting because of a hot goalie. That's normal in the NHL but for a developmental league, you don't sit a bluechip prospect that long if they are healthy...
I agree with that point too. Green does do a decent job @ winning games with limited talent. That makes him a decent coach for some situation but it doesn't make him a good coach for 'nucks farm team (or any farm team that isn't stacked with top end prospects).
Also if you read my posts, you'll see i question the "teaching" part of his coaching too, which i think gets ignored. Has players really improved a lot while being in his system for an extended period of time? Someone like Jensen leaves and is a much better player yesterday than he was at any point last year (or before that). Of course he might have an extra chip on his shoulder and its just 1 game... but he never looked that good with Utica.
It isn't an isolated case either because i've listed other example of players being better either before or after Utica (and in some cases both). At the same time, most players don't seem to improve much during their time there.
Red
Registered User
Yep. It's great that he's able to get a lot out of ECHLers and lifelong AHLers or 4th year pros on their last chance in the league. That means he probably is a good motivator with vets or knows how to deploy them to get the most of them. That doesn't make him a good development coach in a development league or a coach the Canucks as an organization should want to hold on to. I'm not impressed by him at all when the inevitable cull of the organization from Benning down happens, I hope Green goes too. Gaunce is the only player he can be said to have developed for the pro team.
Virtanen played last season on the Canucks and looked like a legit NHL player at times. Seems to be regressing and going nowhere in Utica.
Carcone was a guy who scored 90 points in junior and looked great in pre-season. Going nowhere in Utica.
Cassels was a highly regarded prospect with success in junior but hasn't developed at all under Green.
Rendulic has 38 points last year for another AHL team but can't get anything happening under Green.
Mike Zalewski was a polished college player who did not look out of place in a couple NHL games but also seems to be getting nowhere in Utica.
None of these players were anything close to a "sure thing" but if Travis Green were truly some wizard at developing players that some people seem to believe he is then shouldn't like ONE of these guys be having a decent year? SHouldn't there be some player on the team to whom you can point and say, that guy didn't look like much but he's made great strides under Green. Is Valk really it?
Carcone was a guy who scored 90 points in junior and looked great in pre-season. Going nowhere in Utica.
Cassels was a highly regarded prospect with success in junior but hasn't developed at all under Green.
Rendulic has 38 points last year for another AHL team but can't get anything happening under Green.
Mike Zalewski was a polished college player who did not look out of place in a couple NHL games but also seems to be getting nowhere in Utica.
None of these players were anything close to a "sure thing" but if Travis Green were truly some wizard at developing players that some people seem to believe he is then shouldn't like ONE of these guys be having a decent year? SHouldn't there be some player on the team to whom you can point and say, that guy didn't look like much but he's made great strides under Green. Is Valk really it?
1) He had Corrado (5th round pick, low chances of NHL top 6) playing well, but instead of the Canucks allowing him to continue growing, they chose to rot him in the press box. He was injured pretty badly in the playoffs but played anyways and played well I might add. He came to camp not ready and was told the team understood, but instead of using tools at their disposal to keep a hold on him they put him on waivers and shockingly he was claimed.
2) Shinkaruk (1st round, #24 pick, 10% chance of becoming an NHL top 6 froward) He was allowed to play 74 regular season games in the AHL when he probably should have played at least a half season in the ECHL rehabbing and getting in shape after taking off the summer to recover form injury and surgery for such. He was definitely not ready for the AHL yet. Green kept him here. Worked every day teaching him his professional responsibilities. The kid was a human checking dummy. He was a knocked all over the place.
By mid season he got his legs back and started to show speed flashes and was learning to pass, find open space, get it back, and shoot. He found rebounds crashing when other guys got shooting opportunities. He used his skills to his benefit instead of wasting them on dashes down the boards only to end up kissing glass, the boards, or the ice. He had a successful second half and finished with 16G/15/31Pts He played in all 23 playoff games, 4g/2A/6Pts.
He used that learning season to the best of his abilities the next season. He came out doing what Green had groomed him to do. He was an offensive force. He lead the team in goals and points (21G/18A/39 PTS in 45GP), made the All-star team, and was promptly traded.
3)Brendan Gaunce (1st round, pick #26, 10% chance of becoming a top 6 NHL player.) Gaunce played that same rookie season as Shinkaruk and played 74 regular games (11G/18A/29Pts.) and 21 playoff games (4G/5A/9Pts).
He did this playing laft wing, not his natural position, center.
The next season he would split time between Vancouver and Utica and spend time injured as well. In Utica he managed to put up 17G/21A/38 points which was 4th best on the team after only playing 46 games with the Comets.
Both of these players improved immensely and if they had played a full season here would have come close to doubling their rookie point totals which weren't bad to begin with.
This was good development. Shink was good enough to earn Benning what he considered a NHL ready player in a trade. That player is now considered a great pickup according to a large swath of Vancouver posters. Gaunce made the Canucks out of camp this season. That's development.
4) Nicklas Jensen (1st round, 29th pick, 10% chance of making NHL top 6) Jensen made big improvements in his game but the Canucks had already given up on him by then. He has played 7 games this season with the rangers and was an AHL All-Star pick from the Hartford Wolf Pack and has 20 goals thus far.
Incidentally, I do not share your opinion that Green didn't want Shinkaruk or Jensen. What coach in his right mind would not want his team's best goal scorer and close to PPG player on a goal starved team in spite not having a number #1 center to play with and and also toss away his #2 RW and then be satisfied with no replacements coming back? Are you really serious? He tells the brass how much talent the players have and it's up to the brass what they want to do with those players. He does not recommend trades.
5)Jordan Subban (4th round, #115, low chance of NHL top 6). Jordan was known to be a puck moving, offensive D-man with a knack for putting up points. His d was suspect. Suspect was puttin it mildly. he was bad!. Did that mean he got shelved for a veteran? To hear Vancouver poster talk you would think that the case. In the very beginning of the season Green was (as he usually does) rotating all of his young guys to give them all some game time to show what they have. This is what I suspect guys who like the idea of developing the kids would like to see.
He got pressboxed a couple of times for the same repeated errors in succession, several games in a row. The first time it's let go. The 2nd time the d-coach has a chat. The 3rd time maybe Baumgartner again. the 4th time Travis has a chat. Then it's a strong reprimand and a shift to think it over. The next time no chats, but a couple more shifts skipped. Again? Maybe a few more shifts. Keep doing it and it's time to sit one out and see if that helps you learn. He also had a couple little boo-boos. His D got better, he played 67 games and put up 11G/25A/36 Pts.
This season he had one pressbox early for the same crap all over again. That was it. He was injured. he spent a couple games in the Vancouver press box. He has played 37 games and has 10G/14A/ 24Pts. He is definitely improved and is on pace to well eclipse his point totals of last season. He is only one goal short of last season's total and has basically half a season left. He is also an AHL All-Star.
I'd say that is definitely improved development.
6)Alexandre Grenier (3rd round, 90th pick, chances of NHL career fall quickly.) Alex is a very interesting player. This guy skates real well, has size, great hands, hardest wrist shot on the team all 4 seasons. He has improved every single year. the first season he was a flounder in the sea of hurt that was the comets for the first half of the year. the coaching staff was faced with almost a full roster of projects. Many players came and went, but they were settled in and played at the rate of the 2nd best team in the AHL in the second half of the season. Alex improved much as the team did. He finished 17G/22/39Pts in his first AHL season.
His second season he learned to play both ends of the rink and became a much better hockey player. He put up 17G/26A/48Pts, good for 2nd on the team behind O'Reilly, moving between the 1st and 2nd lines and 6G/9A/15 Pts, tied for 2nd with Baertschi, in the playoff run.
Pretty good improvement, eh?
3rd season shows him becoming a leader. His 16G/32A/48Pts in 68GP leads the team. Shinkaruk's 39 points in 45 GP shows just how important Hunter was to the team and just how good he must have been.
This season he leads the team in scoring once again with 14G/21A/and 35 points with only 42 GP. He is well on a pace to having his best season. Improving even more.
It does seem strange that a player who has been this much in the forefront of a team has been given very little attention by the parent club.
Are there any similarities here? Want to join the conspiracy theory? None of these guys are Benning's people. Gaunce is the only one up there and many of the Vancouver faithful are petitioning for his return to Utica if the Canucks return to full strength and someone has to go. He is not susceptible to waivers.
7) Pedan 3rd round, #63, 4th pro season, NHL chances in Vancouver dwindling fast). Andrey arrived in Vancouver for a draft pick, as a victim of Islanders depth and had spent some time injured. Came to Utica and was raw. They whipped into shape. Taught him what they wanted him to do and he strated to settle in and played very well. his problem was enjoyment in fighting. It had cost him a concussion in the isalnders organization and he got KOed again here and lost a third of the season and all of the playoff run.
His 2nd season he really rounded into shape and was hyped big time down here as developing into a real good NHL prospect. The Canucks brought him up and he has been up and down ever since, but his game has gone to ****. I don't know what happened in the transition, but that player who was showing all the right stuff here doesn't look promising at all now. WD seems to feel the same way because he doesn't play Andrey when he's up there. That's not on Green. What he got back is not what he sent up.
8) Kenins (undrafted, slim chance of making an NHL roster.)
His first season here was along with Gaunce and Shinkaruk. He played his wing. Dealt some big hits. Scored some goals. We were impressed. He got the look in Vancouver. played just like down here. Then he lost ice time. Got moved in and out of the lineup, but ended up with 30 GP in Vancouver and 41 in Utica. We looked for his return for the playoffs, but he went home to Europe, injured they said.
Last season he was again up and down. was injured for quite a bit and finished with the Comets (41GP). He was on the the 1st/2nd line, depending on how you in looked at it, by the heat of the run to the playoffs with half the squad made up of PTOs. Both were on the PP as well. Neither he nor Friesen was talented enough to warrant that responsibility and they didn't handle it all that well. There play was not recognized as all that by the Canucks either as both were let go after the season. Like Pedan. Ronalds never played the same way he had before going to Vancouver. They both improved immensely, looked to be getting NHL ready and then kaputski.
9)Markstrom - Marky's strory is ell known . No reason to rehash it again. He strated here as okay. He rotated game by game with Eriksson for a good part of the season. He got injured and Jokie carried the load. He had a call-up. Came back and settled in to the #! by season's end. The playoff run was all his and earned him a spot in vancouver. it was not known how he would do when sent here. They took a chance he would clear waivers and then hoped for the best. Nobody envisioned the final results and anyone who says they did is making it up. Green didn't give him the job right off the get go anymore than he's going to give it to Demko. I see Thatcher eventually growing into the Markstrom mold, but it won't be this season. Right now he has a 2.83 GAA/.901 SV% to Bachman's 2.58 GAA/.908 SV%. Neither stinks and neither is setting the world on fire. They have both had spurts and down times. They get along very well and both want to play. It's a very normal goalie relationship. Give thatcher time to become what he can be. Rushing goalies is the dumbest thing hockey management can do. Developing the mental toughness to survive at the highest level takes the longest time to develop in most keepers. More than a few have had the skills but couldn't hold up under the mental stress and many successful ones have suffered many other ailments caused by stress.
These are the top guys the Comets have received and as far as I can see they all developed. They improved every season. their numbers got much better, but they didn't fit into Benning's cubicles and many have never really been given the ice time to prove anything. if you want prospects to work their way in, you have to play them when you bring them up. They don't get better in the press box or playing in situations that don't fit their MO. A scorer has to be put in position to prove he can score. Playing 6 or 7 4th line minutes with plugs won't allow them to prove anything. If a guy is a pick rushing D-man you have to put him out there with a top line and let him do his thing. This type of action has never been employed by WD. I watch the rangers, Sabres, Devils, and Islanders regularly. They do do what I just stated. with guys they bring up. They don't just bring the guy up to get a pay check and look on from the rafters. They play him and get a look . They want to know who they can or can't depend upon if a future situation calls for a guy to fill a role for a bunch of time. They don't wait for an emergency and then pray the guy the bring up can do it because he's been doing it in the AHL. They have seen him play for their club and have an idea of who best to fit the need. Jensen has played 7 games for the Rangers. How many games have any Comets forwards played this season and how many of those games have they seen any time on the top 2 lines?
Now you have a medical degree. What can't you do? Youalso don't absorb what you read.
Bachman had the first start as it was his turn. Wins 1GA
Demko's turn. Sick. Bachman plays. Wins 1GA
Next game next night. Demko still sick. Bachman plays. Wins 2GA
Next game Demko able to dress. Hasn't eaten well. Dehydrated. Has skated. Better of sitting this one out. Bachman plays. Wins 1GA
Next game Demko could have played, but Green decides to ride his hot keeper. Coach's prerogative. Bachman plays. Wins 0GA
Team returns home for 3 in 4. No keeper is going to get back to backs. Demko has been working up to the big Saturday night game when he will wear his new black and neon green Save The Day Foundation special one game uniform and equipment. A big thing was made of it in a video on the internet. The gear will be auctioned off after the game. He has to play that one. It's on Saturday. He gets the Saturday start Bachman will play Friday.
The Wednesday game was the game in question. Who would get that one. Bachman had won 6 in a row, pitched a shutout in his last start, and allowed 6 goals in the 6 starts. Green exercises his prerogative once more and gives his blazing keeper the nod. He loses 2-1 in OT, another one goal regulation start.
Friday he loses 3-2 to the #1 team in the AHL. A game in which his team sleep walks the first and costs themselves the game.
Demko loses Saturday to the Crunch 4-3 in a shootout.
I'll post it once again. Demko has a 2.83 GAA/.901 SV% and Bachman has a 2.58 GAA/.908 SV%. Both have 9 wins.
These two will rotate the rest of the season. One might get an extra start or two based on performances at the time. Injuries might also play a role. I like riding a hot keeper and the odds are just as great that Demko could be the guy. It will all depend on multiple variables , but in the end their games played will be close to equal. Most coaches will play a hot keeper in any league. Your druthers nor mine will ever matter.
I'm not really sure how to respond as I want to choose my words carefully so as not to give the wrong impression. I highly respect your opinions and appreciate the detail with which you follow the team and the thought you put into these posts. So please don't take my arguments the wrong way. You know that I don't follow the team with anything close to the same level of detail so my opinions are based on broader observations.
Players improve. I don't think we should expect some sort of baseline where players remain the same year after year from when they are 18 to when they are 38. I also don't think it makes sense to grade coaches against this baseline.
I have no doubt that players have made some improvements to their game since arriving in Utica. I am also 100% sure that some players would have made improvements under any coach. I think that some level of improvement should absolutely be expected and we should set our expectations in a way that is reasonable. For players like Shinkaruk, Jensen, these players were first round picks. I absolutely expect them to produce in the AHL and to make quick strides. These are the pop flies for Green. Good on him that he didn't drop it, but it's not exactly highlight reel stuff and also neither of these players were developed into NHL players. For Corrado, Pedan, Markstrom, these guys were also pretty polished. Corrado had already played in the NHL playoffs and held his own as a 19 year old. Pedan was good enough apparently for a 3rd round pick and Markstrom had played 50 NHL games. I also thought we were excluding goalies from this exercise but whatever.
My point is that none of these guys have really developed beyond what I think expectations should have been for them given their draft pedigree and/or their existing professional experience prior to joining the Comets. Maybe Markstrom has improved a lot but as you said yourself that's Melanson not Green. Corrado seemed to be regressing from the player we saw in the 2013 playoffs, Pedan hasn't been worth the 3rd round pick and both Shinkaruk and Jensen are considered busts. If these are Green's success stories then it doesn't paint a super flattering picture of him as development wizard.
I'll give you Gaunce. I guess maybe he is the kind of player who Green can develop. An extremely low-event 4th line player who doesn't product much but doesn't get burned much either. It's still kind of disappointing for a 1st round pick but it was a weak draft and blah blah blah. Anyway, fine, Gaunce. I'll give you Grenier too.
But that's it really. In his time as our organizational development wizard he has made a good AHL scorer out of Grenier and maybe a 4th line player out of Gaunce. The other 1st round picks he's been given have busted (or are on their way in the case of Jake) and nobody else really stands out as making significant strides beyond what I would consider to be reasonable expectations.
EDIT: I guess Shinkaruk is more of a "we will never know" situation. It's possible that he'd be doing better had he stayed in our org rather than being wasted on Granlund, so I'll consider this. I do think however that Green had a hand in that trade as I remember word being that he (Green) wasn't high on him. I'll see if I can find the article I am thinking about.
Players improve. I don't think we should expect some sort of baseline where players remain the same year after year from when they are 18 to when they are 38. I also don't think it makes sense to grade coaches against this baseline.
I have no doubt that players have made some improvements to their game since arriving in Utica. I am also 100% sure that some players would have made improvements under any coach. I think that some level of improvement should absolutely be expected and we should set our expectations in a way that is reasonable. For players like Shinkaruk, Jensen, these players were first round picks. I absolutely expect them to produce in the AHL and to make quick strides. These are the pop flies for Green. Good on him that he didn't drop it, but it's not exactly highlight reel stuff and also neither of these players were developed into NHL players. For Corrado, Pedan, Markstrom, these guys were also pretty polished. Corrado had already played in the NHL playoffs and held his own as a 19 year old. Pedan was good enough apparently for a 3rd round pick and Markstrom had played 50 NHL games. I also thought we were excluding goalies from this exercise but whatever.
My point is that none of these guys have really developed beyond what I think expectations should have been for them given their draft pedigree and/or their existing professional experience prior to joining the Comets. Maybe Markstrom has improved a lot but as you said yourself that's Melanson not Green. Corrado seemed to be regressing from the player we saw in the 2013 playoffs, Pedan hasn't been worth the 3rd round pick and both Shinkaruk and Jensen are considered busts. If these are Green's success stories then it doesn't paint a super flattering picture of him as development wizard.
I'll give you Gaunce. I guess maybe he is the kind of player who Green can develop. An extremely low-event 4th line player who doesn't product much but doesn't get burned much either. It's still kind of disappointing for a 1st round pick but it was a weak draft and blah blah blah. Anyway, fine, Gaunce. I'll give you Grenier too.
But that's it really. In his time as our organizational development wizard he has made a good AHL scorer out of Grenier and maybe a 4th line player out of Gaunce. The other 1st round picks he's been given have busted (or are on their way in the case of Jake) and nobody else really stands out as making significant strides beyond what I would consider to be reasonable expectations.
EDIT: I guess Shinkaruk is more of a "we will never know" situation. It's possible that he'd be doing better had he stayed in our org rather than being wasted on Granlund, so I'll consider this. I do think however that Green had a hand in that trade as I remember word being that he (Green) wasn't high on him. I'll see if I can find the article I am thinking about.
To me it is pretty damn hard to develop any players the way this team has been put together the last two seasons.
This team for two straight seasons lack any type of play making centers and faceoff guys. If you wanna short circuit development of a player, you do what the Canucks have done two straight seasons...
Part of developing players requires that you go out and fill the holes in your system with quality players that make the guys around them better.
Instead the Canucks go out and sign Carcone, Laplante, Billins, ECT ECT which have no real value.
It does not take a PhD to figure out where the problems are here. Comets spend far too much time without the puck due to few puck possession playmakers and faceoff guys....
This team for two straight seasons lack any type of play making centers and faceoff guys. If you wanna short circuit development of a player, you do what the Canucks have done two straight seasons...
Part of developing players requires that you go out and fill the holes in your system with quality players that make the guys around them better.
Instead the Canucks go out and sign Carcone, Laplante, Billins, ECT ECT which have no real value.
It does not take a PhD to figure out where the problems are here. Comets spend far too much time without the puck due to few puck possession playmakers and faceoff guys....
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