Heaton
Moderator
Except Subban wouldn't be some rookie from the Wings farm, he'd be an asset that the Wings traded a bunch of stuff for. His leash would be extremely long.
Proposal: The "Trade _______ Right ******* NOW" Thread
- Thread starter RedMenace
- Start date
Except Subban wouldn't be some rookie from the Wings farm, he'd be an asset that the Wings traded a bunch of stuff for. His leash would be extremely long.
This was under the projected scenario of a few fantasy deals (I actually didn't notice/include the Subban deal from the original post in my response) that led to this defense corps with Regehr and all RFAs re-signed:
Kronwall/Quincey
Smith/Regehr
Kindl/Ericsson
Colaiacovo
Lashoff would still be around, and I might consider putting Lashoff on the ice instead of Hainsey. Ouellet and Sproul would still be around, and a year closer to the NHL. Would you rather Hainsey, or Sproul/Ouellet at the start of next season?
RedMachine87
Registered User
sarcastro
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- Jul 28, 2005
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I haven't seen him play enough to have a solid opinion on him. I've heard a lot of people rag on him but I've also read some articles that point to advanced stats and say he's really good, particularly defensively.
Let's say the Wings were going to try and trade for him - drop all the "Holland sucks" crap for a minute, because I don't care. What do we think it would take for the Wings to acquire him. We'd assume they would lock him up long-term if they acquired him.
Remember, for this exercise I don't care about any "Holland is a looser and teh wurst evurr so he wud be to stoopid too trade" blah blah blah. Don't care. With what the Wings have, what's fair value?
I would think the Habs would want Ouellet. They'd probably want Smith too, but I would say the Wings shouldn't deal both. They'd probably want Nyquist and/or Tatar, and they'd probably want Abdelkader and/or Sheahan. And probably some picks. Just spitballing here. They would probably ask for Helm and it would be worth considering if that would save some of the other top assets - 1st pair 2 way D >>>>> 3rd line stonehanded speedster.
If they could get it done with just picks and lower level prospects that would be ideal - we've seen what happens when the Wings try to pick in the 1st round...
JmanWingsFan
Your average Jman
Interesting twist in the P.K. Subban debacle, as Jamie Benn signed for an AAV of around $5 million per year for 5 years.
sarcastro
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2005
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Pretty sure Subban would sign a similar deal but for some reason the Habs don't want to do it. They're trying to lowball him.
They'd match an offer sheet for that amount in a heartbeat though. It would take at least a Vanek contract for them to let him go and take the picks.
RedMenace
Registered User
I'm gonna stick with my Franzen + Ericsson + prospect (Oullet?) + a pick of some sort for Subban's rights, then sign him for $6m/5 years.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Yeah, how's that working out for them?
I'd say it's better to be proactive and let the cards fall where they may. I understand doing nothing but offering up impressive quotes to the media on what you were hoping to do would be super impressive. It works pretty well for the Pistons!
sarcastro
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2005
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I can see Ericsson and Ouellet being the start of a deal that would interest the Habs (assuming they think more of E than I do), but I don't think they'd want to take Franzen and his contract and his penchant for laying down in the offensive zone and taking shift-long naps. Wtf.
RedMenace
Registered User
Heh. Donkeys get tired at the most inopportune times, don't ya know.
Well like I posted in the "All Things Subban" thread, I think Franzen is the only good forward available from the Wings right now; I think they're going to push hard to keep Filppula, and nobody else is really worthwhile.
I mean, he can score ~30g, and the cap his is very reasonable, I just think he's gotten a little complacent or something.
(For what it's worth, I've been watching Semin so far this year, and I'd MUCH rather have Franzen. Yeesh. Totally lazy, terrible passing, no defensive game at all...)
GoAwayDanCleary
DRWCC
- Aug 6, 2012
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sarcastro
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2005
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I didn't think Semin would help either. Frankly I think the offense would be fine if the D weren't such a disaster. They seem like they're alternating between trying to open up the offense, getting torched because the D is so awful, and then overcompensating by abandoning the offense to help support the D.
As I said, I think Helm is the one forward that is potentially tradeable that the Habs would want. I would rather hang onto him but if we're talking about value, Subban theoretically has much more value as a top pair all-situations Dman.
I love PK, he makes mistakes, but what dman these days that ain't a prime Lidstrom doesn't. He also has a lot of swagger, which is something I think our team can use.
I would definitely overpay to get him, though I doubt Holland would ever do it. Montreal probably would want Ouellete since he is French and from the QMJHL, and I'd definitely part ways with him for Subban. I don't think we would have to trade away Smith in the package, but they might want a body on D to replace him. I'd like to think that Kindl might still have some value that I'd see if they bite on that, I'd throw in Tatar as an offensive prospect (I like Tatar, but we do seem to have a decent enough forward prospect pool in the works [Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Ferraro, Jurco] that I'm ok parting with him). To really make sure Montreal would bite on this deal, I'd throw in this year's first and next years as well LOL
The way I see it, Holland does nothing with our 1st's anyways, and this would prevent him from just trading back for another Quincey again, might as well use them on a player I want. I'd think that other NHL teams might think we're not as good as we use to be (which is very likely very true), that our 1sts probably hold more value now that in previous years, but I'd gamble on it hoping that getting someone like Subban who was already a top pairing dman in Montreal last year to help stabilize our d at least keeps us making or fight for a playoff spot this season.
so my trade I guess looks like
Ouellete + Kindl/Quincey/Ericsson + Tatar + 2013 1st + 2014 1st
Though this could be our defining Brian Burke trade (akin to Kessel from Boston deal) where those firsts end up being a 2nd and 8th overall LOL
GoAwayDanCleary
DRWCC
- Aug 6, 2012
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I hope KH gives it a shot. I think we have the prospects to offer but I highly doubt Montreal is interested.
not allowed..
remember the # of donkeys on this board who thought his acquistion was brillant and then continued to argue that building the core of any professional sports franchsie through free agency was the best method to achieve success....
RedMenace
Registered User
Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with Quincey until at least the trade deadline, more likely until the off-season (unless he really, REALLY decided to suck); Holland likely won't give up on a nearly $4m dollar player who cost a 1st round pick so quickly, so be prepared for a LOT more Q-bert for the time being.
As much as that pains me to say... sigh.
As much as that pains me to say... sigh.
quincey was a reactionary acquistion as oppossed to a well thought and deliberate plan
no team, least of which the DRW, should ever trade its highest earned draft position in 20 years for the likes of a kyle quincey, period.
it reeked of a "oh crap we better do something" type of move
RedMenace
Registered User
Be that as it may, I think the Wings are still going to give him every chance -- and likely more than he deserves -- to prove himself one way or the other.
Heaton
Moderator
Do people realize how many prospects the Wings have in their pipeline (keep in mind I didn't qualify the abilities of them). Trading away draft picks and prospects is what we SHOULD be doing. We've accumulated so many prospects since the lockout started that we obviously either don't have room for them or are not planning to make room for them.
I'm not claiming they have a ton of value - but being this conservative when we're re-signing Samuelsson, Bertuzzi and probably Cleary this year makes zero sense. So why try to get even more? Unload some for talent that helps us now.
i have absolutely no qualms with trading away a 19th overall pick(our highest pick in two decades that we earned) or prospects for good to elite young players(lets say a subban or a el nino level player) but not a journeyman bottom pairing dman being cast away by a non-playoff team(colorado)
quincey was a reactionary move to acquire a filler with no eye 3 to 5 years down the road.
so yah, if we arent going to be aggressive and "try" and acquire more top end young talent one way or another then its a better idea to just hold onto our picks
Heaton
Moderator
I disagree. Quincey has been beyond brutal since we traded for him, but going into the playoffs last year we needed a defensemen - especially since we knew Lidstrom and Stuart were leaving. Quincey was the right choice to go after, he was younger than any of the other defensemen actually being traded and it seemed like a long term solution. Quincey would not have been the first defensemen with some decencies but equal amounts of promise to turn it around in another city.
Did it work out? Did it look great at the time? Both answers are no, but the thinking was sound. The biggest issues, as you've said, is that Holland hasn't landed any top end talent. If we landed Suter over the summer, this whole Quincey thing is just another Lilja bash - meaning, it's irrelevant, but good board fodder.
joe89
#5
- Apr 30, 2009
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I never thought it was a brilliant trade(medium risk medium reward IMO) but I could defend it at the time and I still can. If it works out, it's not a bad trade. It's hard to crap on a trade before you see the player play. And last year was too small a sample while he also showed some improvement towards the end. Sadly, Quincey has not adapted to the Wings' style of play in a score+ of games and a full offseason which leads me to believe he might never work out here. But that's hindsight, every GM would love that luxury.
However, if it works/worked out, the Wings have a top4 defenseman who's 27 years old and can play at a high level for 7-8 more years. We drafted Brendan Smith, a first rounder almost 6(!!!) years ago and he's still not a established top4 defenseman in the league. Kindl, another 1st round D of ours is yet to be a regular in the league 7½ years later. You shouldn't throw draft picks in the water, but they're not some kind of invaluable piece either. Plus the Wings have built up a farm and can afford to take some chances for a more immediate impact to the team.
