The top 5 playoff performers in the cap era (2006-2019)

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The Washington Capitals had eight 100+ point seasons, they won the president's trophy 3 times, they won the division 9 times, and made the playoffs 11 times.

There were plenty of seasons where their ouster in the 1st or 2nd round was considered an upset, for good reason. Ovechkin had plenty of help over his career.

The regular season doesn't mean anything. It's easy to run and gun to put up pts, the playoffs are different. Go back and check the 2Cs, D and goaltending of the caps at OV's peak. Also, we always used to hear how the caps only win division titles and pile up pts because of the shit SE division, but now people say "they won so many division titles".

Plenty of upsets?

08: not really (1st time in the playoffs, had less pts than the flyers anyway)
09: not really (2v4 isn't an upset)
10: sure
11: sure
12: no (7th seed lost to 1st)
13: no (caps were higher seed but only 1pt ahead of NYR)
14: missed
15: no (4th seed lost to 1st)
16: no (1v2 isn't an upset)
17: no (same as 16)
18: cup
19: sure

Where are these plenty of upsets?

 

[SimpleJack]

Wh

These facts you keep stating as the main point of your argument aren’t convincing or really important, and I can start going tit for tat with them and get nowhere. Malkin has more goals in the finals, guess he’s more clutch according to your logic. Malkin played with a washed up Kunitz and rookie Bryan Rust in 2016 and had the historic run with Talbot and Fedotneko on his wings, so he had to do it more himself. Kane had quality line mates and Malkin didn’t. Should we ignore that? (Kessel for 2017 was good). Toews gets leadership points for wearing a c for three cups. Malkin had an A for them while Kane wore nothing. Chalk up some leadership intangible points for 71.(no takesie backsies) I’ll tell you one thing , if you want to lose an argument fast, use face off statistics. And it’s pretty stupid since Kane is a winger and makes Malkin look like a Selke candidate in comparison. If Malkins ppg lead over Kane is “minuscule” then anything Kane has over Malkin is far more irrelevant , especially even strength goals. What kind of lead does Kane have in even strength points ? I’d more interested in that stat. EDIT : 1.03 ppg vs .96 ppg is not what I’d consider minuscule. In fact it’s gaps like that which separate the good from the greats on the all time lists. Not many players are over ppg in the playoffs especially nowadays. (Probably like Sid , Geno, OV?)

The facts I’ve stated aren’t important???

Then tell me, what is???

Ive listed/compared:

Points per game
Goals/assists (even strength vs PP)
GWG (relative to # of games played)
OT goals (relative to # of games played)
FO%
Giveaways/takeaways
Con Smythes
Stanley Cups

what the hell am I missing that would change the argument one way or another? Not to mention you keep missing the point that the reason Kane’s even strength goals/OT goals/GWG are being brought up is because he’s played in THIRTY FIVE fewer games. That’s a big deal.

You brought up linemates? Kane played with Saad and Shaw in 2014, and Versteeg/Saad and Richards in 2015. Not exactly jiving with your “Kane played with quality linemates and Malkin was stuck with the likes of Talbot, Fedotenko, Rust and Kunitz” argument is it? And who was playing with Malkin on the Pens vastly superior PP? Were they a bunch of scrubs too?

The only thing you mentioned that makes sense is Malkins superior goal totals in the SCF. That’s a legitimate point and should be factored in with everything else. But it hardly sways the overall picture. They’re dead even. Too close to call. Both have categories in their favor, nothing definitively separates one from the other. I mean just look at the results of this poll so far....they each have 70 votes!! That’s as close as it gets.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm throwing some names out there. Some might not be a perfect fit but here goes - from the past 15 years:

Iginla
Tavares
Giroux
Getzlaf
Eric Staal
Kovalchuk
Spezza
Parise

I'm not saying these guys are top 5 or anything, just that they're unheralded playoff performers largely for reasons outside their control. A team can win with these types of players.

I definitely agree.

But like you said, maybe not top 5 guys. And I don't think it's solely because of their teams. We're talking about the best of the best over more than a decade so that's a tight group and there's no slight in taking, say, Kane and Keith over Getzlaf. I think if you were to expand the list to 10 you'd get more of the variety you're asking for, but it's really, really hard to take those guys over the key players on multiple championship teams.

 

[stl76]

Shout out to Logan Couture. Guy gets underrated some times as a playoff performer.

Since Couture entered the league in 2009-2010:

	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG	GWG	OTG	PPG Runs*	Max Pts
Kane	111	41	68	109	.98	11	5	3	28
Crosby	115	42	81	123	1.07	5	1	4	27
Malkin	113	39	67	106	.94	6	0	3	28
OV	107	50	46	96	.90	6	0	2	27
Toews	111	33	64	97	.87	8	2	1	29
Couture	116	48	53	101	.87	8	2	4	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

*min 10 games

Couple caveats:
1) Sample does not include 08-09, which obviously hurts a lot of these guys (particularly Malkin/Crosby)
2) If you exclude his rookie postseason in 09-10 when he averaged 11:23 mins/game, Couture's PPG is .96

Not saying Couture should be top 5 necessarily, especially once we include D and goalies...but he is right there with the best forwards IMO.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

The facts I’ve stated aren’t important???

Then tell me, what is???

Ive listed/compared:

Points per game
Goals/assists (even strength vs PP)
GWG (relative to # of games played)
OT goals (relative to # of games played)
FO%
Giveaways/takeaways
Con Smythes
Stanley Cups

what the hell am I missing that would change the argument one way or another? Not to mention you keep missing the point that the reason Kane’s even strength goals/OT goals/GWG are being brought up is because he’s played in THIRTY FIVE fewer games. That’s a big deal.

You brought up linemates? Kane played with Saad and Shaw in 2014, and Versteeg/Saad and Richards in 2015. Not exactly jiving with your “Kane played with quality linemates and Malkin was stuck with the likes of Talbot, Fedotenko, Rust and Kunitz” argument is it? And who was playing with Malkin on the Pens vastly superior PP? Were they a bunch of scrubs too?

The only thing you mentioned that makes sense is Malkins superior goal totals in the SCF. That’s a legitimate point and should be factored in with everything else. But it hardly sways the overall picture. They’re dead even. Too close to call. Both have categories in their favor, nothing definitively separates one from the other. I mean just look at the results of this poll so far....they each have 70 votes!! That’s as close as it gets.

Brandon Saad was quality then so nice try. And you continently left out the 2010 and 2013 cup runs. I’m confused what your arguing with me about. Am I supposed to say it’s dead even for you to be satisfied ? I think there is a slight edge to Malkin, I value the PPG being much better ( sorry it’s much better not a little better) than the even strength goals stat. That’s my opinion. Sorry? I don’t know why you care so much. So again I say it’s not some giant gap just an edge to Malkin. It’s not really disrespectful to say that. Malkin did more with less.

 

[SimpleJack]

Brandon Saad was quality then so nice try. And you continently left out the 2010 and 2013 cup runs. I’m confused what your arguing with me about. Am I supposed to say it’s dead even for you to be satisfied ? I think there is a slight edge to Malkin, I value the PPG being much better ( sorry it’s much better not a little better) than the even strength goals stat. That’s my opinion. Sorry? I don’t know why you care so much. So again I say it’s not some giant gap just an edge to Malkin. It’s not really disrespectful to say that. Malkin did more with less.

168 pts in 162 games(1.04ppg) is “much better” than 123 pts in 127 games(.97ppg)?

Or(because of the way you worded it I’m not quite sure which one of these you meant) how is that overall PPG advantage “much” better than the fact that Kane has more even strength goals, more overtime goals, and just 1 fewer GWG all while playing in 35 fewer games?

Do you not know what the word “much” means? Or do you just not know when it makes sense to use it?

Saad was “quality” sure but not prime Toews/Sharp level. Don’t act like Malkins dragged around scrubs his entire post season career. As I’ve mentioned he put up a MUCH higher % of those points we’re speaking of on the PP compared to Kane. Who was on that PP with him for the last 2 Cups? Crosby, Kessel, Letang? That’s absurd.

But regardless the “who was he playing with” factor isn’t as important to me, you’re the one that initially brought it up. Truth is both players played with amazing supporting casts, both teams were modern day dynasties. Let’s stop the “More with less” nonsense.

I care because of how you initially voiced your opinion(THAT is what was “so disrespectful”), though now you’ve (conveniently)changed your tune and admit it’s very close. That “Malkin gave Kane wet dreams” and “Kane stays up at night staring at posters of Malkin” crap was silly. Have some respect for both players, both are incredible legends. Though maybe you were just upset because Kane’s Hawks have beaten Malkin’s Penguins like 5,000 straight times in regulation...

 

[daver]

I actually thought of that Flyers series for Crosby after I posted and agree he was pretty darn good in it. I don’t really like the argument Malkin wasn’t focused on as much and had easier match ups. If Sid was facing top lines (which usually aren’t that great defensively aside from Zetterberg in the finals) from the other team, Malkin was getting the shut down lines against him. Crosby had the best wingers by a long shot, it can’t be written off, and had Gonchar on the ice with him for the majority of even strength. Malkin was stuck with Gill and Scuderi. So I still agree that Crosby is number one, but your reasoning with matchups is not a great one

You opened the can of worms of providing context on their numbers by saying Crosby had better linemates in 2009 which certainly is not backed up statistically.

Crosby is facing the other team's #1 line and the other team's #1 d-pairings more often then not. Malkin is facing the other team's #2 lines and #2 d-pairings more often than not, both of which are usually not as strong defensively and a #1 line is usually the best offensive threat so it's not like Crosby's line doesn't have spend time in their defensive zone. The team's best all around C is usually the #1C.

In the 2009 SCF, the Wings decided that trying to contain Crosby at any cost was the best strategy with the hope that Malkin would not produce enough. Even though they did not have Datsyuk for the first four games, they still threw their best defensive players at Crosby and notably Zetterberg was shadowing Crosby. Not to take anything away from Malkin, who clearly delivered in the SCF and was the deserving Smythe winner, but the fact that Zetterberg's line (including Franzen, the team's leading scorer coming into the SCF) was less effective offensively in that series at ES due to the defensive effort needed to contain Crosby was a factor. The Wings gambled that their depth beyond their #1 line was superior to the Pens depth beyond their #1 line.

 

[bert]

Pronger has to be in anyones top 5.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby and Pronger are my Top 2.

After that, Toews, Kane, Keith, Doughty, Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Malkin are competing for the 3 remaining spots.

Ovechkin wouldn't make my Top 15, or barely at 14th or 15th.

 

[daver]

Crosby and Pronger are my Top 2.

After that, Toews, Kane, Keith, Doughty, Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Malkin are competing for the 3 remaining spots.

Ovechkin wouldn't make my Top 15, or barely at 14th or 15th.

Who would you have ahead OV besides those listed above, specifically forwards? He is #2 in goals, #1 in GPG, #3 in points and #3 in PPG since 2005. I get he falls short on his all around offensive game and on the defensive side of things but I can only see Getzlaf as having a half decent argument for being above OV among forwards.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Who would you have ahead OV besides those listed above, specifically forwards? He is #2 in goals, #1 in GPG, #3 in points and #3 in PPG since 2005. I get he falls short on his all around offensive game and on the defensive side of things but I can only see Getzlaf as having a half decent argument for being above OV among forwards.

Being top 3 in PPG and easily #1 in GPG is described as "falls short on his all around offensive game?" What on Earth?!?

Speaking of the defensive side of things, Sidney Crosby is arguably the absolute worst defensive player being mentioned in this thread:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With Sidney Crosby on the ice in the playoffs, the Penguins are giving up waaaaaaaaay above the league average in terms of even strength goals against per 60. And no, it's not due to goaltending. Notice how the players who actually earned their reputations for being good at defense get a much better result.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

168 pts in 162 games(1.04ppg) is “much better” than 123 pts in 127 games(.97ppg)?

Or(because of the way you worded it I’m not quite sure which one of these you meant) how is that overall PPG advantage “much” better than the fact that Kane has more even strength goals, more overtime goals, and just 1 fewer GWG all while playing in 35 fewer games?

Do you not know what the word “much” means? Or do you just not know when it makes sense to use it?

Saad was “quality” sure but not prime Toews/Sharp level. Don’t act like Malkins dragged around scrubs his entire post season career. As I’ve mentioned he put up a MUCH higher % of those points we’re speaking of on the PP compared to Kane. Who was on that PP with him for the last 2 Cups? Crosby, Kessel, Letang? That’s absurd.

But regardless the “who was he playing with” factor isn’t as important to me, you’re the one that initially brought it up. Truth is both players played with amazing supporting casts, both teams were modern day dynasties. Let’s stop the “More with less” nonsense.

I care because of how you initially voiced your opinion(THAT is what was “so disrespectful”), though now you’ve (conveniently)changed your tune and admit it’s very close. That “Malkin gave Kane wet dreams” and “Kane stays up at night staring at posters of Malkin” crap was silly. Have some respect for both players, both are incredible legends. Though maybe you were just upset because Kane’s Hawks have beaten Malkin’s Penguins like 5,000 straight times in regulation...

I don’t know why you are being so intentionally thick. I said he had wet dreams regarding the 09 run, which is way better than what Kane ever did. Not that their whole playoff careers are a big gap. Don’t twist my words. Stop citing face off percentage and more overtime goals as these strong arguments that I’m supposed to be like well okay you got me there. I can say Malkin has more goals in the finals , he has more points in the third and fourth rounds, a better ppg in the late rounds and he has more even strength assists and points while playing with much lesser talent. Kane’s pp was arguably just as good as the one Malkin played on. Now I’ll start bring up these points every time and say “but how can you ignore these???” Like you are doing.l with the even strength goals. What gets me is you arguing with yourself which makes this super entertaining for me. I never even said there was much a of a difference and you keep trying to hammer home that it’s not a much of a difference and I’m just sitting here like what the hell are you talking about I already know that. Learn some hockey and come back to me , thanks my dude. EDIT: and yes 1.04 and .97 is a large gap when it comes to ppg.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

You opened the can of worms of providing context on their numbers by saying Crosby had better linemates in 2009 which certainly is not backed up statistically.

Crosby is facing the other team's #1 line and the other team's #1 d-pairings more often then not. Malkin is facing the other team's #2 lines and #2 d-pairings more often than not, both of which are usually not as strong defensively and a #1 line is usually the best offensive threat so it's not like Crosby's line doesn't have spend time in their defensive zone. The team's best all around C is usually the #1C.

In the 2009 SCF, the Wings decided that trying to contain Crosby at any cost was the best strategy with the hope that Malkin would not produce enough. Even though they did not have Datsyuk for the first four games, they still threw their best defensive players at Crosby and notably Zetterberg was shadowing Crosby. Not to take anything away from Malkin, who clearly delivered in the SCF and was the deserving Smythe winner, but the fact that Zetterberg's line (including Franzen, the team's leading scorer coming into the SCF) was less effective offensively in that series at ES due to the defensive effort needed to contain Crosby was a factor. The Wings gambled that their depth beyond their #1 line was superior to the Pens depth beyond their #1 line.

That fact isn’t lost on me , trust me. But it’s not as simple as the first line is better defensively than the second line most of the time. The top offensive players that Crosby usually plays against often aren’t as good as shutting down offence compared to a shut down or grinder line. It’s kind of silly to make a claim Malkin is facing number two lines that aren’t as good defensively, when everyone knows these lines take pride in or specialize in playing more a shutdown role. Crosby might get the first D pairing but he’s got the advantage of the Penguins own first d pairing moving the puck as well. Malkin somehow did what he did in 09 with Gill and Scuderi sharing the ice with him most of the time. I won’t even argue the point your making about the 09 finals, since Zetterberg was their best shutdown guy and he saw Lidstrom as well. But for example, the Ottawa series in 2013 where Crosby was matched up against Spezza and Karlsson where Malkin has more defensive oriented matchups like a Neil and Chris Kelly line with a shutdown d pairing of Methot and someone else. (I’m going off memory on that one because I’m too lazy to check) Poijt being its not always as simple as Sid gets harder defensive matchups.

 

[daver]

That fact isn’t lost on me , trust me. But it’s not as simple as the first line is better defensively than the second line most of the time. The top offensive players that Crosby usually plays against often aren’t as good as shutting down offence compared to a shut down or grinder line. It’s kind of silly to make a claim Malkin is facing number two lines that aren’t as good defensively, when everyone knows these lines take pride in or specialize in playing more a shutdown role. Crosby might get the first D pairing but he’s got the advantage of the Penguins own first d pairing moving the puck as well. Malkin somehow did what he did in 09 with Gill and Scuderi sharing the ice with him most of the time. I won’t even argue the point your making about the 09 finals, since Zetterberg was their best shutdown guy and he saw Lidstrom as well. But for example, the Ottawa series in 2013 where Crosby was matched up against Spezza and Karlsson where Malkin has more defensive oriented matchups like a Neil and Chris Kelly line with a shutdown d pairing of Methot and someone else. (I’m going off memory on that one because I’m too lazy to check) Poijt being its not always as simple as Sid gets harder defensive matchups.

#2 lines are usually the bottom half of your Top 6 forwards.

In general, I am happy to let their numbers speak for themselves but when someone brings up linemates, deployment, matchups etc... to qualify Crosby's #'s, I simply do not think he loses that subjective argument to any other player.

The 2009 Finals was unique as the Wings took extra care to cover Crosby despite not having Datsyuk to cover Malkin as he did in 2008.

 

[Varan]

Crosby and Pronger are my Top 2.

After that, Toews, Kane, Keith, Doughty, Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Malkin are competing for the 3 remaining spots.

Ovechkin wouldn't make my Top 15, or barely at 14th or 15th.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO I took a screenshot of this take. My God

 

[daver]

I don’t know why you are being so intentionally thick. I said he had wet dreams regarding the 09 run, which is way better than what Kane ever did. Not that their whole playoff careers are a big gap. Don’t twist my words. Stop citing face off percentage and more overtime goals as these strong arguments that I’m supposed to be like well okay you got me there. I can say Malkin has more goals in the finals , he has more points in the third and fourth rounds, a better ppg in the late rounds and he has more even strength assists and points while playing with much lesser talent. Kane’s pp was arguably just as good as the one Malkin played on. Now I’ll start bring up these points every time and say “but how can you ignore these???” Like you are doing.l with the even strength goals. What gets me is you arguing with yourself which makes this super entertaining for me. I never even said there was much a of a difference and you keep trying to hammer home that it’s not a much of a difference and I’m just sitting here like what the hell are you talking about I already know that. Learn some hockey and come back to me , thanks my dude. EDIT: and yes 1.04 and .97 is a large gap when it comes to ppg.

I do like Kane's clutchness but Malkin gets the edge for having the better playoff run and more career points and similar PPG. Him being C helps too.

 

[clydesdale line]

The West was more of a juggernaut to go through during most of those years than the East. Sid is #1 but I'd put Kane and Keith ahead of Malkin if putting together a list 1-5. Most of the guys listed in this thread is accurate though.

 

[Star Ocean]

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Blatant slash on a 20 year old Crosby

 

[nowhereman]

Being top 3 in PPG and easily #1 in GPG is described as "falls short on his all around offensive game?" What on Earth?!?

Speaking of the defensive side of things, Sidney Crosby is arguably the absolute worst defensive player being mentioned in this thread:

09/10 through 18/19 Playoffs
Player	Crosby	Bergeron	Ovechkin	Toews	Kopitar	Datsyuk
EV GA	98	58	76	70	36	27
EV TOI	1912	1789	1768	1900	1293	931
Total EV GA/60	3.075	1.945	2.579	2.211	1.671	1.740
PPSHGA	8	4	3	2	1	3
PP TOI	483	320	463	326	268	203
Total	0.994	0.750	0.389	0.368	0.224	0.887
EV+PP GA	106	62	79	72	37	30
EV+PP TOI	2395	2109	2231	2226	1561	1134
EV+PPGA/60	2.656	1.764	2.125	1.941	1.422	1.587
PK TOI	24.5 Minutes	225	4:24	197	162	56
PK TOI/GP	13 Seconds	1:54	2 seconds	1:47	2:03	0:57

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

With Sidney Crosby on the ice in the playoffs, the Penguins are giving up waaaaaaaaay above the league average in terms of even strength goals against per 60. And no, it's not due to goaltending. Notice how the players who actually earned their reputations for being good at defense get a much better result.

This chart of yours has had holes poked in it from day one and continually re-posting it isn't going to make it any more valid. When are you going to drop this ridiculous narrative that Crosby is poor defensively?

 

[Beau Knows]

I'd probably go with:

1. Crosby
2. Malkin
3. Kane
4. Lidstrom
5. Zetterberg

 

[Midnight Judges]

This chart of yours has had holes poked in it from day one and continually re-posting it isn't going to make it any more valid. When are you going to drop this ridiculous narrative that Crosby is poor defensively?

There are no holes or flaws in the data.

What's done is done, and Crosby has sucked defensively for almost his entire career. The resulting numbers show this beyond a shred of a doubt.

It's just a matter of people thinking for themselves and realizing the "Crosby is great defensively" narrative is a complete fraud that was concocted right when his offense fell off.

Feel free to counter with data of your own. Oddly enough the people saying Crosby is great defensively never do that, not even when I created a thread on the main board. It's certainly not for a lack of trying.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Blatant slash on a 20 year old Crosby

What do you mean? Stick infractions didn't apply to star players on the Red Wings.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO I took a screenshot of this take. My God

That's not even his worst OV take lol. There's some real gems in the post history

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

There are no holes or flaws in the data.

What's done is done, and Crosby has sucked defensively for almost his entire career. The resulting numbers show this beyond a shred of a doubt.

It's just a matter of people thinking for themselves and realizing the "Crosby is great defensively" narrative is a complete fraud that was coincidentally concocted right when his offense fell off.

Feel free to counter with data of your own. Oddly enough the people saying Crosby is great defensively never do that, not even when I created a thread on the main board. It's certainly not for a lack of trying.

34 1st place selke votes last season. With a very strong 4th place finish.