OT: The Thread About Nothing CCVII: The sNOwstorm

[BenedictGomez]

you should go at least once in your life. imagine smelling overpowering stale rat piss but not seeing any rats. you can scratch that off your bucket list once you step foot outside port authority

No need to go sans rats. Just show up in the middle of the night after the restaurants have left their trash out and you'll see rats aplenty. For better odds, try more lightly traveled streets. For instance, John Street's a safe bet for hot rat activity.

 

[BenedictGomez]

60k people per year move in to the city, there is a housing shortage, and the population is on pace to hit 9 million residents by 2025.

I'm convinced it's no so much that you dont understand this stuff, as you desperately wish not to believe it. I make that judgement due to the fact people will post serious hard data (BLS, IRS, FRB, etc...) and you'll come back with some facile biased publication. I've even married US census data with IRS data to show how certain states are losing wealth or people or $$$ (or all of the above). But hey, it's not like I've worked with this stuff for a living.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'm in the market for a home right now and am considering Newark because it seems like that's the last truly urban spot in the area where deals can be found.

The most recent housing data had Newark as one of the fastest growing in sales. Shocked me to say the least.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Here's some more data to ignore that comes directly from the United States Census Bureau.

The fastest shrinking states

8. New York

• 1-yr pop. growth rate: -0.01%
• Current population: 19.75 million
• 2015 population: 19.75 million
• 10-yr pop. growth rate: 3.35%

New York is one of many Northeastern states whose populations are shrinking due to rapid outbound migration. While the state gained a net total of 118,478 new residents from other countries — more than any state other than Florida and California — roughly 191,000 more Americans moved out of New York to another state in 2016 than moved in.

The fastest growing (and shrinking) states: A closer look

 

[None Shall Pass]

how does low income housing work? there are beautiful apartments in NJ where the rent- all included- is like $500. i’m thinking about quitting my job and working some $15-$20/hour job- i want to make the most i can while still qualifying for one of these places

No clue how it works there, but in New York, you need to make less than I do to qualify and pay more in rent than I do if you go that route. It's absurd.

 

[BenedictGomez]

how does low income housing work?

Take a politician who doesn't understand economics, and plug him/her into an electorate who doesn't understand economics and let them both enjoy a symbiotic relationship of virtue signaling and self-righteousness. Meanwhile, the people they're "helping", largely languish a life of financial stasis at best, or suffer at worst. Pretty much everyone's happy, except the people being "helped" most.

 

[BenedictGomez]

No clue how it works there, but in New York, you need to make less than I do to qualify and pay more in rent than I do if you go that route. It's absurd.

Imagine doing that for the bulk of one's life? Many do. It's actually quite sad.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Take a politician who doesn't understand economics, and plug him/her into an electorate who doesn't understand economics and let them both enjoy a symbiotic relationship of virtue signaling and self-righteousness. Meanwhile, the people they're "helping", largely languish a life of financial stasis at best, or suffer at worst. Pretty much everyone's happy, except the people being "helped" most.

As if to prove my point.

Tell me, how would you propose we go about solving the housing issue amongst the urban poor and working class in this region?

Personally I'm a big fan of 80-20 and believe it will pay dividends in the coming decades. Your turn.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Here's some more data to ignore that comes directly from the United States Census Bureau.

The fastest shrinking states

8. New York

• 1-yr pop. growth rate: -0.01%
• Current population: 19.75 million
• 2015 population: 19.75 million
• 10-yr pop. growth rate: 3.35%

New York is one of many Northeastern states whose populations are shrinking due to rapid outbound migration. While the state gained a net total of 118,478 new residents from other countries — more than any state other than Florida and California — roughly 191,000 more Americans moved out of New York to another state in 2016 than moved in.

The fastest growing (and shrinking) states: A closer look

New York State.

You're either being intellectually dishonest or have your head in the sand.

Who cares if retirees in the rust belt move to Florida? Their kids left a long time ago and aren't coming back anyway. We are living through a period of reurbanisation and it's a beautiful thing.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

It's expensive to live in NYC but, for me at least, it's not much cheaper to move to the 'burbs and commute everyday for work and school.

I looked into it, and between increased gas and monthly commuter rail tickets (Even work subsidized), I'd save maybe like $100 a month. And, tbh, I'd rather save myself an extra two hours of commuting every day.

Rent is a bit cheaper, but not dramatically so.

Add in the commuter tax and it's simply not worth it unless you don't mind commuting 1+ hours. Which is exactly why I'm looking at Newark, a lot of that property is severely undervalued imo.

 

[devilsblood]

Add in the commuter tax and it's simply not worth it unless you don't mind commuting 1+ hours. Which is exactly why I'm looking at Newark, a lot of that property is severely undervalued imo.

Buying? I def think there is money to be made there.

Still might take awhile though.

 

[devilsblood]

Add in the commuter tax and it's simply not worth it unless you don't mind commuting 1+ hours. Which is exactly why I'm looking at Newark, a lot of that property is severely undervalued imo.

Edit: Glitch.

 

[BenedictGomez]

how would you propose we go about solving the housing issue amongst the urban poor and working class in this region?

We wouldn't be "here" in the first place if people like me were in charge 50 years ago. And there should never have been "zombie housing" created in the first place. I "propose" the less wealthy should get to move to less expensive areas. Just like they did in the olden days until relatively recent days (e.g. yours and my lifetime). Nobody ever paid for me to live on Malibu Beach, and nobody should pay so "the urban poor" get to live on the Upper West Side. It's not a fundamental human right to live in a rich area (or at least it shouldn't be).


EDIT: I should note, nobody ever paid for me to live on the Upper West Side either, but there was a low-income housing building literally on my block with nicer apartments than what I lived in, and that was when I worked in banking! But as I mentioned before, this is NOT doing these people any favors to live in an area where lunch meat is $13/pound, milk is $5 gallon, and all their similar life expenses doom them to everlasting poverty, courtesy of a benevolent government. But hey, they do have stone countertops; cant take that away from them!

 

[BenedictGomez]

New York State.

You're either being intellectually dishonest or have your head in the sand.

Aethon's post was about "state", my reply was about "state", my last post was "state", so yes, I am talking about the entire state, not just the city. It is you who typically focuses on New York City in this thread with our stereotypical regional arrogance, not I. The policies of Albany affect more than just the 300 or so square miles of NYC. I think the 13,000,000 or so people who make their New York home outside NYC agree with me.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Buying? I def think there is money to be made there.

Still might take awhile though.

High-risk, high-reward. Personally, I'd pass.

 

[devilsblood]

High-risk, high-reward. Personally, I'd pass.

Depends on where you buy I think. But that will also drastically affect the initial investment.

Somewhat related, a friend of mine told me he recently went to that QXT's club on Mulberry. Which with it's windowless facade I thought for sure was some sort of sex cauldron. He did say it was pretty freaky though. But put some windows on that thing and it has some potential.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

We wouldn't be "here" in the first place if people like me were in charge 50 years ago. And there should never have been "zombie housing" created in the first place. I "propose" the less wealthy should get to move to less expensive areas. Just like they did in the olden days until relatively recent days (e.g. yours and my lifetime). Nobody ever paid for me to live on Malibu Beach, and nobody should pay so "the urban poor" get to live on the Upper West Side. It's not a fundamental human right to live in a rich area (or at least it shouldn't be).


EDIT: I should note, nobody ever paid for me to live on the Upper West Side either, but there was a low-income housing building literally on my block with nicer apartments than what I lived in, and that was when I worked in banking! But as I mentioned before, this is NOT doing these people any favors to live in an area where lunch meat is $13/pound, milk is $5 gallon, and all their similar life expenses doom them to everlasting poverty, courtesy of a benevolent government. But hey, they do have stone countertops; cant take that away from them!

Everyone knows the projects and Mitchell-Lama housing was a mistake.

You still offer no solution other than "move to the South Bronx, broke ass" in so far as I can tell.

But whatever, I'm done with this conversation here as someone deemed it necessary to delete half of our dialogue on this and other topics, and I don't feel like repeating myself. That coupled with the fact that you seem to have little to no empathy or understanding of the issues facing a few million people on our doorstep will lead to nowhere.

Enjoy the game which will undoubtedly turn in to a horror show bg.

 

[None Shall Pass]

We wouldn't be "here" in the first place if people like me were in charge 50 years ago. And there should never have been "zombie housing" created in the first place. I "propose" the less wealthy should get to move to less expensive areas. Just like they did in the olden days until relatively recent days (e.g. yours and my lifetime). Nobody ever paid for me to live on Malibu Beach, and nobody should pay so "the urban poor" get to live on the Upper West Side. It's not a fundamental human right to live in a rich area (or at least it shouldn't be).


EDIT: I should note, nobody ever paid for me to live on the Upper West Side either, but there was a low-income housing building literally on my block with nicer apartments than what I lived in, and that was when I worked in banking! But as I mentioned before, this is NOT doing these people any favors to live in an area where lunch meat is $13/pound, milk is $5 gallon, and all their similar life expenses doom them to everlasting poverty, courtesy of a benevolent government. But hey, they do have stone countertops; cant take that away from them!

The issue with that is that every area needs the working class. NYC is going to be expensive for waiters and janitors and teachers, but NYC also needs waiters and janitors and teachers. If you push them far enough away, they might not come back.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Aethon's post was about "state", my reply was about "state", my last post was "state", so yes, I am talking about the entire state, not just the city. It is you who typically focuses on New York City in this thread with our stereotypical regional arrogance, not I. The policies of Albany affect more than just the 300 or so square miles of NYC. I think the 13,000,000 or so people who make their New York home outside NYC agree with me.

They can agree all they want, but the fact remains that 13 million people in New York state as well as NJ and CT would be - and many already are - living in Alabama without the 5 boroughs.

I know that comes off as harsh, but reality and pragmatism often do.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Buying? I def think there is money to be made there.

Still might take awhile though.

A good friend of mine bought in ironbound in 2015. His place has appreciated 50k.

Another who grabbed his spot in Forest Hill in 2012 whose is up 75-100.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The issue with that is that every area needs the working class. NYC is going to be expensive for waiters and janitors and teachers, but NYC also needs waiters and janitors and teachers. If you push them far enough away, they might not come back.

Well I'm not talking about teachers and the college educated, I'm talking about the, "totally unskilled and uneducated, but hey, here's your chic Manhattan location" anyway folks on the dramatic end of the "affordable housing" scale. But what tends to happen with crap jobs that clearly cant afford to live in XYZ area, is the employer needs to start paying higher wages to account for the increased travel time & travel costs in order to pull employees.

They can agree all they want, but the fact remains that 13 million people in New York state as well as NJ and CT would be - and many already are - living in Alabama without the 5 boroughs. I know that comes off as harsh, but reality and pragmatism often do.

I lived in Manhattan for a decade. I've lived in really rural places too.

If someone forced me to move to either Manhattan or Alabama for the rest of my life tomorrow, I'd choose Alabama, and it wouldn't even be a tough decision.

Golf, beautiful weather, zero traffic, no stress, great hunting, awesome fishing, low taxes, huge houses cheap, friendly neighbors. I'll take that any day over smog, the aforementioned rats, never-ending noise, anger, the smell of urine in summer, and decent Chinese food.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Well I'm not talking about teachers and the college educated, I'm talking about the, "totally unskilled and uneducated, but hey, here's your chic Manhattan location" anyway folks on the dramatic end of the "affordable housing" scale. But what tends to happen with crap jobs that clearly cant afford to live in XYZ area, is the employer needs to start paying higher wages to account for the increased travel time & travel costs in order to pull employees. Unless of course, there's lots of "affordable housing" available. Hey, wait........hmmmmm.



I lived in Manhattan for a decade. I've lived in really rural places too.

If someone forced me to move to one for the rest of my life tomorrow, I'd choose Alabama, and it wouldn't even be a tough decision. Golf, beautiful weather, zero traffic, no stress, great hunting, awesome fishing, low taxes, huge houses cheap, friendly neighbors. I'll take that any day over smog, never-ending noise, anger, the smell of urine in summer, and decent Chinese food.

Well then, I suppose you'd be fine with going back to the Giuliani policy of bussing the homeless to NJ. Or should we just imprison the poor?

And if you had ever been inside of the projects in Chelsea, LIC, LES, or southern Harlem I'm pretty sure chic location wouldn't be the first term that came to your mind.

And what exactly are you advocating for? Because as far as I can tell it's nothing.

Offer a solution or back off. Otherwise you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it at best. And that's me trying to give you credit.

Btw, as far as Alabama AND Manhattan are concerned I can assure you that I'm a much better authority on both places and your misrepresentations are laughably incorrect and unfortunate.

But hey, if the grass is greener nearer to the gulf for you, give it a go. I just wouldn't venture too far from Huntsville.

 

[billingtons ghost]

anger, the smell of urine in summer, and decent Chinese food.

I don't know man. I might sell my kid for some decent Chinese food...

The balance is this- (with the caveat that I've never lived in NYC - but I spent 10 years in Silicon Valley - so the smog, the traffic, the *ridiculous* prices of everything apply)...

The reason that these epicenters of wealth attract people is the opportunity. Either you are at a stage in your life where you are a mercenary and opportunity is a siren's song you cannot afford not to answer, or you are at a stage where you want a better quality of life for you or your kids and the suburbs, or 'someplace else' is a better fit.

The downside, like I said, is 'opportunity'. Kids in Silicon Valley grow up thinking jobs grow on trees and have a built in swagger about employment: everyone is going to be a rocket scientist. Most other places like the midwest or rust belt or the aforementioned Alabama - kids grow up seeing life as a steep struggle - and many just aim for 'mechanic', 'nurse' or 'army'. I am certainly oversimplifying it, but I can guarantee you that for many of my neighbor's kids, college isn't an expected thing - and for some it isn't in the conversation. Growing up in Bergen county, that blows my mind.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

I don't know man. I might sell my kid for some decent Chinese food...

The balance is this- (with the caveat that I've never lived in NYC - but I spent 10 years in Silicon Valley - so the smog, the traffic, the *ridiculous* prices of everything apply)...

The reason that these epicenters of wealth attract people is the opportunity. Either you are at a stage in your life where you are a mercenary and opportunity is a siren's song you cannot afford not to answer, or you are at a stage where you want a better quality of life for you or your kids and the suburbs, or 'someplace else' is a better fit.

The downside, like I said, is 'opportunity'. Kids in Silicon Valley grow up thinking jobs grow on trees and have a built in swagger about employment: everyone is going to be a rocket scientist. Most other places like the midwest or rust belt or the aforementioned Alabama - kids grow up seeing life as a steep struggle - and many just aim for 'mechanic', 'nurse' or 'army'. I am certainly oversimplifying it, but I can guarantee you that for many of my neighbor's kids, college isn't an expected thing - and for some it isn't in the conversation. Growing up in Bergen county, that blows my mind.

I couldn't have said it better. Even going back to Ocean and Monmouth counties it blows my mind to see people who never longed for more.

And that's more than ok. I'm quite proud of what many people in my family have accomplished.

But to slag an entire town - one many would argue is the most important one on the planet - when he himself made his bones here is perplexing to say the least.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

We wouldn't be "here" in the first place if people like me were in charge 50 years ago. And there should never have been "zombie housing" created in the first place. I "propose" the less wealthy should get to move to less expensive areas. Just like they did in the olden days until relatively recent days (e.g. yours and my lifetime). Nobody ever paid for me to live on Malibu Beach, and nobody should pay so "the urban poor" get to live on the Upper West Side. It's not a fundamental human right to live in a rich area (or at least it shouldn't be).


EDIT: I should note, nobody ever paid for me to live on the Upper West Side either, but there was a low-income housing building literally on my block with nicer apartments than what I lived in, and that was when I worked in banking! But as I mentioned before, this is NOT doing these people any favors to live in an area where lunch meat is $13/pound, milk is $5 gallon, and all their similar life expenses doom them to everlasting poverty, courtesy of a benevolent government. But hey, they do have stone countertops; cant take that away from them!

Just reread this and find it funny that you mention Malibu and the beach specifically.

And that's because the state of California recognizes beaches as public land and therefore people can move about them as freely as they choose. Have you ever been there? There are RV's and tents all over the place.