TV: The Sopranos Discussion Thread

[John Price]

I knew the ending was coming when I finished watching for the first time and I didn't mind it. At the time people first saw it, it was so widely criticized but upon time the ending has been more embraced.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Just finished the series for the first time.

It may be my personal all time least favorite ending for any TV show I've enjoyed.

I loved it.

'You probably dont even know when you go'

Or something along those lines...

 

[Baby Punisher]

Has anyone watched/listen to the Pajama Pants podcast with Jamie Siegler and Robert Iler? It's pretty good. They cover some Sopranos stuff, but it's mostly just 3 people hanging out and chatting. That studio background......

 

[Voodoo Child]

I've watched it a couple of times in quarantine, in addition to watching the original run and a re-watch in 2017.

Still the goat, only Mad Men comes close.

Breaking Bad is great, but lacks subtlety and rewatchability, and The Wire is also great, but at times feels too cumbersome and tends to set up arcs that go nowhere.

Then you look at all the crap Netflix and Hulu are churning out. If it's not 'characters have heavy plot armor and will act totally against character if we need to advance the story!' it's 'let's base our entire story and world around a social issue!' or 'impending catastrophe threatens humanity...women and minorities hardest hit.'

Not only is it the best written, acted and filmed show of all time, but as a drama its a top-5 funniest show ever.

I don't think Tony died at the end.

There is compelling evidence to it ('I bet you don't even hear it when it happens'), but something Carmela said in Paris resonates with me, 'It's like these people didn't exist until we got here, and after we leave they'll still exist'.

David Chase is a huge fan of ambiguity. The ending, the Russian in 'Pine Barrens', 'was Jimmy/Black Jack Massarone really a rat?', did Jamal Ginsberg bang Meadow's roommate, did Ralphie kill the horse and many more.

At the start and up until about season three, Tony is an asshole but you still sort of like him, and over the course of the series he becomes more and more monstrous (both in appearance and in his actions), and I think the ending of 'Kennedy and Heidi' ('I GET IIIIIIIIT!') is him accepting this.

His therapy with Melfi is about him trying to change, but he can't or he won't.

He becomes numb; the track playing during Chrissy's death is 'Comfortably Numb'. In the opening scene of 'Walk like a Man', Tony comes down the stairs singing the lyrics from this song.

The cut to black, to me at least, represents Tony's numbness to existence; Carlo has flipped, AJ is in a bad state and his crew is down to Paulie, Patsy, Benny Fazio (criminal mastermind) and a few associates.

Tony will continue to exist after we leave, but his life is bleak and joyless.

Walt f***in Whitman ova' here...

 

[Epictetus]

Has anyone watched/listen to the Pajama Pants podcast with Jamie Siegler and Robert Iler? It's pretty good. They cover some Sopranos stuff, but it's mostly just 3 people hanging out and chatting. That studio background......

I haven't followed that one, but I have been listening to the one with Michael Imperioli (Christopher) and Steven Schirripa (Bobby) on YT which is pretty solid.
Each weekly episode they basically go through the script of an episode and provide context and analysis.
They've had great guests on including Jamie Siegler, Robert Iler, David Chase, Edie Falco, Dominic Chianese, Steven Buscemi, etc

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I knew the ending was coming when I finished watching for the first time and I didn't mind it. At the time people first saw it, it was so widely criticized but upon time the ending has been more embraced.

I was initially pissed like most people were, but in looking back I now realize the point wasn't whether he lived or died, it's that he was inevitably going to be offed at some point and would now have to live the rest of his life in fear, constantly looking over his shoulder. That's a terrible fate but a fitting one for a guy like Tony.

 

[Baby Punisher]

I haven't followed that one, but I have been listening to the one with Michael Imperioli (Christopher) and Steven Schirripa (Bobby) on YT which is pretty solid.
Each weekly episode they basically go through the script of an episode and provide context and analysis.
They've had great guests on including Jamie Siegler, Robert Iler, David Chase, Edie Falco, Dominic Chianese, Steven Buscemi, etc

I watched a couple of those. They are a bit boring. If you are an actor, director, DP, or someone in the business you will appreciate the technical side of their podcast. I have to watch the one they did with Chase. That looks interesting. PJ Pants is more like ripped from the headlines show.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I was initially pissed like most people were, but in looking back I now realize the point wasn't whether he lived or died, it's that he was inevitably going to be offed at some point and would now have to live the rest of his life in fear, constantly looking over his shoulder. That's a terrible fate but a fitting one for a guy like Tony.

Sword of Damocles

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

I haven't followed that one, but I have been listening to the one with Michael Imperioli (Christopher) and Steven Schirripa (Bobby) on YT which is pretty solid.
Each weekly episode they basically go through the script of an episode and provide context and analysis.
They've had great guests on including Jamie Siegler, Robert Iler, David Chase, Edie Falco, Dominic Chianese, Steven Buscemi, etc

Just watched the one with Dominic Chianese, he looks great and is totally with it, he'll be 90 in a couple weeks. Also they have one with Jerry Adler, he is still with it and looks good, just turned 92 today actually.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I don't think Tony died at the end.

There is compelling evidence to it ('I bet you don't even hear it when it happens'), but something Carmela said in Paris resonates with me, 'It's like these people didn't exist until we got here, and after we leave they'll still exist'.

David Chase is a huge fan of ambiguity. The ending, the Russian in 'Pine Barrens', 'was Jimmy/Black Jack Massarone really a rat?', did Jamal Ginsberg bang Meadow's roommate, did Ralphie kill the horse and many more.

At the start and up until about season three, Tony is an asshole but you still sort of like him, and over the course of the series he becomes more and more monstrous (both in appearance and in his actions), and I think the ending of 'Kennedy and Heidi' ('I GET IIIIIIIIT!') is him accepting this.

His therapy with Melfi is about him trying to change, but he can't or he won't.

He becomes numb; the track playing during Chrissy's death is 'Comfortably Numb'. In the opening scene of 'Walk like a Man', Tony comes down the stairs singing the lyrics from this song.

The cut to black, to me at least, represents Tony's numbness to existence; Carlo has flipped, AJ is in a bad state and his crew is down to Paulie, Patsy, Benny Fazio (criminal mastermind) and a few associates.

Tony will continue to exist after we leave, but his life is bleak and joyless.

Walt f***in Whitman ova' here...

Tony was definitely killed at the end. Chase has even said so in an interview. He had been putting clues in the show about it for years. I don't feel like explaining it all but there's articles out there that do a good job of it.

His therapy was more about dealing with his panic attacks and depression than trying to change his evil ways.

 

[John Price]

Michael Gandolfini on Playing a Young Tony Soprano

 

[tarheelhockey]

His therapy with Melfi is about him trying to change, but he can't or he won't.

His therapy was more about dealing with his panic attacks and depression than trying to change his evil ways.

Melfi's rationale for rejecting Tony at the end of the series pretty strongly suggests that he's incapable of being self-critical enough to actually try to change. He's fundamentally a sociopath and even his "steps toward change" are really him building a sympathetic narrative for himself in the eyes of a woman he wants to possess.

At the end of the day, he has no true desire to change because he doesn't see the value in becoming a better person, even if he understands at some elusive abstract level that he ought to see it. We see that manifested over and over in various situations outside of the therapy.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Melfi's rationale for rejecting Tony at the end of the series pretty strongly suggests that he's incapable of being self-critical enough to actually try to change. He's fundamentally a sociopath and even his "steps toward change" are really him building a sympathetic narrative for himself in the eyes of a woman he wants to possess.

At the end of the day, he has no true desire to change because he doesn't see the value in becoming a better person, even if he understands at some elusive abstract level that he ought to see it. We see that manifested over and over in various situations outside of the therapy.

The truth is that if you take self-preservation (family or crime wise) into account, the stakes in him changing for the better in any meaningful way are way too high for almost anybody to make the necessary change. He's boned from the first take of the series.

 

[cupcrazyman]

James Gandolfini Once Threatened to "Beat the F***" Out of Harvey Weinstein

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Melfi's rationale for rejecting Tony at the end of the series pretty strongly suggests that he's incapable of being self-critical enough to actually try to change. He's fundamentally a sociopath and even his "steps toward change" are really him building a sympathetic narrative for himself in the eyes of a woman he wants to possess.

At the end of the day, he has no true desire to change because he doesn't see the value in becoming a better person, even if he understands at some elusive abstract level that he ought to see it. We see that manifested over and over in various situations outside of the therapy.

That and one of the basic precepts of therapy is that criminal behaviour is part of the pathology that was causing the stress and panic attacks, and the only healing and cure can only come if the criminal behaviour is stopped. Which if he does...well, then there's no show.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

There’s people out there that still think Tony lived?

The ending is so great because instead of having showing the solved puzzle, they give you all the pieces and let you figure out how to solve it.

It involves camera angles and dialogue from previous episodes, but Tony 100% gets shot and dies.

 

[Epictetus]

It's more the who done it that provides the intrigue.

 

[peate]

There’s people out there that still think Tony lived?

The ending is so great because instead of having showing the solved puzzle, they give you all the pieces and let you figure out how to solve it.

It involves camera angles and dialogue from previous episodes, but Tony 100% gets shot and dies.

The Mad King thinks he knows.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Tony was definitely killed at the end. Chase has even said so in an interview. He had been putting clues in the show about it for years. I don't feel like explaining it all but there's articles out there that do a good job of it.

His therapy was more about dealing with his panic attacks and depression than trying to change his evil ways.

Are people like Tony Soprano really evil or are they just people like everyone else, who was influenced by their environment?

 

[SuperScript29]

It's more the who done it that provides the intrigue.

There's a rule about not being able to kill a boss, I know it has been broken in the past but for the sake of show, odds are the call was made by the commission. Tony killed a boss of an NY family, that was not gonna fly with the other families.

I also think Carmine Lupertazzi jr was a lot smarter than the show portrayed him to be. It makes sense that once Phil was out of the picture, the Lupertazzi family probably split the leadership role between Carmine and the other NY faction to keep the peace and get back to business.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Are people like Tony Soprano really evil or are they just people like everyone else, who was influenced by their environment?

He's pretty evil imo. Even given the environment he grew up in, he still knows a lot of things that he does are wrong and doesn't show remorse. Not sure that growing up in bad environment is an excuse to be a bad person either. I understand why it happens and feel for people in that situation but it doesn't give them a free pass.

 

[chicagoskycam]

He's pretty evil imo. Even given the environment he grew up in, he still knows a lot of things that he does are wrong and doesn't show remorse. Not sure that growing up in bad environment is an excuse to be a bad person either. I understand why it happens and feel for people in that situation but it doesn't give them a free pass.

I think he shows considerable remorse or at least tries to suppress it, one of the reasons he's in therapy. I'd say he's a horrible person by the average person's standards but in the environment he was raised in, it's normal. Part of this show is Tony attempting to reconcile his work and family life. He once explains to Melfi that they are soldiers and anyone that chooses that life accepts the consequences, comparing them to the military following orders, of course ignoring the innocent people he may impact.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think he shows considerable remorse or at least tries to suppress it, one of the reasons he's in therapy. I'd say he's a horrible person by the average person's standards but in the environment he was raised in, it's normal. Part of this show is Tony attempting to reconcile his work and family life. He once explains to Melfi that they are soldiers and anyone that chooses that life accepts the consequences, comparing them to the military following orders, of course ignoring the innocent people he may impact.

Another way to look at it, is that simply "good vs evil" is a faulty framework for how life works.

No, Tony isn't evil. Neither is Uncle Junior, or Chris, or Paulie, or Janice, or Johnny Sack, or Phil. Not even Richie. What all of these people are, is severely morally compromised and unwilling to do anything serious to break out of it. That's what "evil" looks like in real life. It's not a supervillain making evil plans, it's a dad putting his family in harm's way to take a bribe, or the guy who hands out bribes in order to screw over an honest competitor. It's being presented with a corpse and chopping it up to save a friend from prison. It's Carm having an AK-47 in the house because she knows.

The closest thing to actual evil we get to see are Tony's parents. I think that's deliberate. Johnny and Livia are the source of his really serious issues, above and beyond his environment. The seed they planted is what makes Tony a little more violent, a little more calculated, a little less remorseful than someone like Chris or Artie. And then it's the Tonys and Phils who rise to the top and set the tone for everyone else, which perpetuates the problem as they spread their trauma to others.

For that reason, I don't think he's really redeemable, and I think that's the point of his "breakup" with Melfi in the final season. It finally clicks for her that he superficially wants to be a better person, the same way someone might superficially want to own their own business even if they're not willing to work for it. What happens when Steve Buscemi's character shows up and really, sincerely wants to change?

 

[The Macho King]

Another way to look at it, is that simply "good vs evil" is a faulty framework for how life works.

No, Tony isn't evil. Neither is Uncle Junior, or Chris, or Paulie, or Janice, or Johnny Sack, or Phil. Not even Richie. What all of these people are, is severely morally compromised and unwilling to do anything serious to break out of it. That's what "evil" looks like in real life. It's not a supervillain making evil plans, it's a dad putting his family in harm's way to take a bribe, or the guy who hands out bribes in order to screw over an honest competitor. It's being presented with a corpse and chopping it up to save a friend from prison. It's Carm having an AK-47 in the house because she knows.

The closest thing to actual evil we get to see are Tony's parents. I think that's deliberate. Johnny and Livia are the source of his really serious issues, above and beyond his environment. The seed they planted is what makes Tony a little more violent, a little more calculated, a little less remorseful than someone like Chris or Artie. And then it's the Tonys and Phils who rise to the top and set the tone for everyone else, which perpetuates the problem as they spread their trauma to others.

For that reason, I don't think he's really redeemable, and I think that's the point of his "breakup" with Melfi in the final season. It finally clicks for her that he superficially wants to be a better person, the same way someone might superficially want to own their own business even if they're not willing to work for it. What happens when Steve Buscemi's character shows up and really, sincerely wants to change?

I like a lot of this, and I think that's reflective of a lot of how each generation kind of... is. Redemption takes work. Redemption is hard.

The whole show starts with him going to therapy. But he goes to therapy not to get "better", but rather to find some element of control over how he is feeling vis a vis his panic attacks. There isn't a moment throughout the show where you see him grapple with the morality of what he is doing. He may *regret* some of the stuff he is doing when it's happening to people close to him, he even feels some guilt (for instance, after he kills p***y), but it doesn't keep him from doing it again.

I think Sopranos is fascinating as a view of Tony's growth (or lack of growth) throughout the series, but also because how mundane so many of the decisions are. It's also interesting *where* you find their moral lines are.

It's not a show about good and evil. Not to tell tales out of school, but I went to therapy after a bit of a breakdown a few years ago. And one of the things I realized was getting *better* was more than learning to deal with the stress - it was looking at the environment I put myself in and dealing with it. You have to change and make sacrifices, and that's something Tony won't do.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Another way to look at it, is that simply "good vs evil" is a faulty framework for how life works.

No, Tony isn't evil. Neither is Uncle Junior, or Chris, or Paulie, or Janice, or Johnny Sack, or Phil. Not even Richie. What all of these people are, is severely morally compromised and unwilling to do anything serious to break out of it. That's what "evil" looks like in real life. It's not a supervillain making evil plans, it's a dad putting his family in harm's way to take a bribe, or the guy who hands out bribes in order to screw over an honest competitor. It's being presented with a corpse and chopping it up to save a friend from prison. It's Carm having an AK-47 in the house because she knows.

The closest thing to actual evil we get to see are Tony's parents. I think that's deliberate. Johnny and Livia are the source of his really serious issues, above and beyond his environment. The seed they planted is what makes Tony a little more violent, a little more calculated, a little less remorseful than someone like Chris or Artie. And then it's the Tonys and Phils who rise to the top and set the tone for everyone else, which perpetuates the problem as they spread their trauma to others.

For that reason, I don't think he's really redeemable, and I think that's the point of his "breakup" with Melfi in the final season. It finally clicks for her that he superficially wants to be a better person, the same way someone might superficially want to own their own business even if they're not willing to work for it. What happens when Steve Buscemi's character shows up and really, sincerely wants to change?

Saying he's evil is just another way to say he's a bad person which he definitely was. Not sure who you mean by supervillain but Tony made plenty of evil plans to screw over honest people and showed very little remorse. That's a bad person. There are worse people out there for sure but he was still bad.