The Selke Thread

[StoneHands]

Yeah 53 in 56 are so terrible, he would still have been PPG even with out the streak he is on.

First of all, I never said 53 in 56 is terrible and second, I think you might want to check your math about 53 points in 56 games being a PPG. If you bothered to read the actual post you'd see that I was more referring to how the last 16 games has made his +/- look less vomit inducing and his points look really impressive. I know none of us really care for +/- but the dinosaurs that vote for these awards clearly do. All you have to do is look at the history of the award. The guy was a -21 in 56 games which was good (bad?) for 3rd to last in the entire NHL. It wasn't until his team was out of playoff contention that he started making it look a little less embarrassing.

 

[ccman68]

They should change the definition of the award to the best defensive center if they don’t give it to Stone who is by far the best defensive forward in the league.

 

[Machinehead]

Barkov is the new Kesler defensively.

He's very solid, but I don't see him as anything special and I certainly don't think his Selke talk is deserved.

Granted, Barkov is way better as a player than Kesler ever was but their defense is overrated in a very similar fashion.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

3 finalists:
Barkov, Barkov, Barkov

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Barkov is the new Kesler defensively.

He's very solid, but I don't see him as anything special and I certainly don't think his Selke talk is deserved.

Granted, Barkov is way better as a player than Kesler ever was but their defense is overrated in a very similar fashion.

 

[Machinehead]

View attachment 201861

Kesler was a solid but not special defensive player who was perennially in the Selke conversation. Now Barkov is.

Barkov's goals against impacts are negative, meaning the Panthers give up more goals per 60 minutes with him on than with him off.

And as you can see here, the prime scoring areas are not a hard place to be when he's on the ice. His competition is nothing to write home about and his deployment is nothing to write home about.

He's not bad defensively by any stretch, but he's not special.

If anything, his offense is underrated. The Panthers take a crazy amount of shots and score (relatively) a crazy amount of goals when he's on the ice.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

2 players above any other this season: Barkov&Stone
but because usually the Selke goes to center position, it goes to Barkov.

Wingers to win Selke: Jere Lehtinen (04, 99, 98) Dirk Graham (91), Craig Ramsay (85)
Bob Gainey (78,79,80,81)

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Kesler was a solid but not special defensive player who was perennially in the Selke conversation. Now Barkov is.

Barkov's goals against impacts are negative, meaning the Panthers give up more goals per 60 minutes with him on than with him off.

And as you can see here, the prime scoring areas are not a hard place to be when he's on the ice. His competition is nothing to write home about and his deployment is nothing to write home about.

He's not bad defensively by any stretch, but he's not special.

If anything, his offense is underrated. The Panthers take a crazy amount of shots and score (relatively) a crazy amount of goals when he's on the ice.

Probably should watch Panthers games every once in a while. There is no better center defensively in today's hockey what Barkov, period

 

[Machinehead]

Probably should watch Panthers games every once in a while. There is no better center defensively in today's hockey what Barkov, period

I just think that the guy who's "above everyone else" defensively, as you said, should be on the ice for fewer goals than his teammates, not more.

Stone and Couturier drop their team's goals against rates like a rock.

 

[StoneHands]

They should change the definition of the award to the best defensive center if they don’t give it to Stone who is by far the best defensive forward in the league.

Yeah man, I can't believe voters like players who actually excel in difficult defensive positions. It's almost like covering a third of the ice is easier than covering all of it.

Let's also just give Binnington the Vezina now.

3 finalists:
Barkov, Barkov, Barkov

-8
50.5% Corsi
0.7 Corsi Rel
8.4 SH GA/60
0 SH points
9 SH goals against

100% on the "eye test".

If those are Selke winning numbers then there are 100 other guys looking for their Trophy.

 

[bossram]

In terms of pure defensive impact (Evolving Hockey's RAPM xGA), Marcus Foligno and Alex Kerfoot have been incredible this season. Kotkaniemi should also warrant Selke consideration.

But typically the Selke also warrants some minimum degree of offensive contribution. This is a year that Sidney Crosby should be a real candidate for the Selke (probably my top choice). Usual suspects like Couturier and ROR are ranked highly as well.

If you want to weigh PK time heavily then...Marcus Foligno should really be your winner.

 

[Machinehead]

-8
50.5% Corsi
0.7 Corsi Rel
8.4 SH GA/60
0 SH points
9 SH goals against

100% on the "eye test".

If those are Selke winning numbers then there are 100 other guys looking for their Trophy.

 

[JFG]

I just think that the guy who's "above everyone else" defensively, as you said, should be on the ice for fewer goals than his teammates, not more.

Stone and Couturier drop their team's goals against rates like a rock.

He’s one of the biggest team Finland homers on these boards. If you look up ’biased’ in the dictionary you’ll find a picture of his and MrThomas’ avatars. Don’t bother.

 

[freecheese]

Individual defense is difficult to quantify, even in hockey.

But by the eye test, I think Bergeron and Barkov are head and shoulders above the rest of the league defensively. They bring so much to the game on that end that doesn't show up on the stat sheet,

 

[theslatcher]

Crosby may be my favorite current NHL'er and Penguins my favorite team but I can look things objectively regardless. Might be a foreign concept to you, based on you having to bring that up (always a good case of lacking arguments when you have to go for that). If you notice, I never said Crosby should win Selke. If you think someone deserves Selke more than him, that's fair, but if it's based on only PK time then that's a very poor argument. As proven by Datsyuk dominating the award without major PK time. And not a single Selke front runner is in top-10 in PK time (Couturier sits at 11th) so if that's the determing factor, then why don't we go that and give Selke to whomever is deemed best PK'er in the league and can be found in the top-10 in PK time? But somehow I've never come across to a campaigning someone for Selke for being the best PK'er in the league (whoever that may be?).

It was the implication of you bringing it up in a response for why Crosby shouldn't get the award while having a Crosby profile picture.

And you're right, you'll never see the Selke being campaigned for best PKer, because a Selke winner is more than just PK(but PKing is one part of it). And I literally posted Datsyuk's PK time per season, how excatly didn't he play major PK time in two of his three seasons that he won it?

 

[PB37]

Are you saying this because stats say so or because you actually have watched him whole season?

More the former than the latter. About 15 games or so. Each time, i thought he wasn't as good as he was last year defensively.

 

[Yackiberg8]

Individual defense is difficult to quantify, even in hockey.

But by the eye test, I think Bergeron and Barkov are head and shoulders above the rest of the league defensively. They bring so much to the game on that end that doesn't show up on the stat sheet,

Have you seen enough of every forward in the league to solely rely on the eye test?

Is Barkovs eye test good because other teams score a lot of goals when he is on the ice?

 

[TheKingPin]

Couts!

 

[nowhereman]

Barkov is the new Kesler defensively.

He's very solid, but I don't see him as anything special and I certainly don't think his Selke talk is deserved.

Granted, Barkov is way better as a player than Kesler ever was but their defense is overrated in a very similar fashion.

There's a lot that went wrong in this post.

First of all, Kesler is one of the best defensive forwards of his generation, probably only behind Bergeron, Toews and Datsyuk. The guy was a finalist for the Selke five times and won once, playing probably the most aggressive, hard-working defense of anyone in the league.

Secondly, Barkov has never come close to matching 2011 Ryan Kesler, who scored 40, won the Selke by doubling the next highest player (Toews) in votes, and finished 8th in Hart voting. And you think Barkov is better than Kesler ever was?

lol

 

[Vujtek]

It was the implication of you bringing it up in a response for why Crosby shouldn't get the award while having a Crosby profile picture.

And you're right, you'll never see the Selke being campaigned for best PKer, because a Selke winner is more than just PK(but PKing is one part of it). And I literally posted Datsyuk's PK time per season, how excatly didn't he play major PK time in two of his three seasons that he won it?

One very small part, not nearly the main part, as you implied by saying Crosby won't be in the running because of his PK time. And you also ignored my maint point regarding Bergeron and his lack of 5v5 time against other main contenders for Selke. Should he be out of running due to that, or is okay to play significantly less on the main part of hockey, if you play PK?

And if you define those Datsyuk's minutes as "major PK time", I guess you would be right. But not being teams top-4 go-to-guy for PK amongst forwards and overall ice-time being barely in top-100 league wide (99th to be exact) and outside top-120 in the second season - well doesn't exactly scream major PK time to me. But I guess we just have different opinion as what constitutes as major PK time.

 

[Machinehead]

There's a lot that went wrong in this post.

First of all, Kesler is one of the best defensive forwards of his generation, probably only behind Bergeron, Toews and Datsyuk. The guy was a finalist for the Selke five times and won once, playing probably the most aggressive, hard-working defense of anyone in the league.

Secondly, Barkov has never come close to matching 2011 Ryan Kesler, who scored 40, won the Selke by doubling the next highest player (Toews) in votes, and finished 8th in Hart voting. And you think Barkov is better than Kesler ever was?

lol

Derek Jeter won five Gold Gloves being pretty much the worst defensive shortstop ever. Awards mean nothing.

 

[QcFlames12]

People underating prime Keslar sooo bad in this thread.

Guy was a defensive animal in his prime, do not let his recent play fool you, there is a reason why he is so banged up.

Guy took over games defensively in his prime.

 

[MrThomas]

Barkov for Selke obviously. Such a great 2g game again..

 

[Yackiberg8]

Barkov for Selke obviously. Such a great 2g game again..

2 goals but still a -2 while his team loses. Sounds like the story of his year.

Maybe he should try keeping the other team from scoring so his team might win a few games.

 

[JackSlater]

Bergeron should win, as he should have pretty much every year this decade. I hope that O'Reilly finally gets some overdue recognition.