The self-torture, time travelling "What if" thread of Flyers drafts and other decisions

[JXC]

I will hate Leon stickle to my grave.
I think Forsberg could have been a fan draw, and lead a team with the non traded assets.
We win in 2000 if Steven's doesnt flatten 88.
Pelle was a crushing loss, but Hexy made up for it in 87.
Patrick Kane instead of JVR?

@MiamiScreamingEagles I ask you this once every two or three years, it seems.

Who called that elbow on John LeClair versus Toronto that one year?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Could we have thrown a sack of cash at Hasek, or was he just deadset on going to Buffalo

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

@MiamiScreamingEagles I ask you this once every two or three years, it seems.

Who called that elbow on John LeClair versus Toronto that one year?

Very much Terry Gregson. The tirade led to close to $100,000 in fines. Ed Snider getting a bulk of the fines.

What truly set them off was Jody Hull's injury with about 4 or 5 minutes left and Gregson and Rob Schick had perfect positioning but opted to let play continue. I forget the Leafs player but he went high (head) as I recall.

@JXC

Edit: The game exists on YouTube. The penalty on LeClair came within three minutes left. Earlier on the shift there was a collision in the Leafs' zone. The penalty looks worse as it happened rather than on replay and Gregson probably fell for the initial reaction.

The Flyers weren't scoring in that series and even though Beezer's numbers were strong for the Flyers, he let in shoddy goals as we know.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Could we have thrown a sack of cash at Hasek, or was he just deadset on going to Buffalo

When? He was traded to Buffalo.

 

[ajgoal]

When? He was traded to Buffalo.

Detroit maybe?

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Detroit maybe?

That was also a trade (BUF to DET).

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

This is part of it. Take Jagr over Ricci, take Forsberg the next year and keep him and all the other assets they gave up for Lindros. They would have been awesome.

Imagine if the Flyers took Martin Brodeur in that draft. Although that was billed as "the big five" in certain circles. Then again, Brodeur could very well have been traded to Quebec. As I said "if" is such a dirty word.

 

[JXC]

Terry Gregson.

Horrifying.

 

[DancingPanther]

The single biggest what if is Lindros' brain.

It isn't even really a what if. If he didn't get brain jello, hockey would be putting him on Rushmore with Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. And it would be indisputable. The Flyers would have won at least in 2000, possibly more during his tenure. Big E was truly an anomaly

 

[ajgoal]

My biggest what ifs aren't about organizational decisions:

What if Pelle hadn't gone for a drive?

What if Dmitri Tertyshny stayed on land the summer after his rookie year?

I don't remember Pelle's accident only because I wasn't quite a hockey fan yet, but three active player deaths in 40ish years seems like it's an above-average number for a particular city.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

There are some many to choose from.

What if Bernie Parent and Rick MacLeish were healthy for the 1976 Cup Final? Could the Flyers have made it three Cups in a row?

What if Pelle decided to stay home like he planned and never went to the team party? I'm convinced the Flyers would have won the Cup that year and Pelle would have played another decade.

What if the Flyers don't blow that 3-1 lead to Jersey in 2000? That team was on a roll and I believe the return of Lindros knocked the chemistry off. I'm still not over that series to this day.

Without Parent and MacLeish, the Flyers still made the Cup Finals. Without Dryden and a comparable player to MacLeish, I doubt Montreal makes the Cup Finals. With both teams completely healthy, it would have been an epic Cup Finals.

 

[mercury]

Just pay Marty Biron average starting goalie money in 2009.

 

[mercury]

I thought you meant Patrick Kane, as in what if the Flyers actually won the lottery in 2007.

That is my biggest "what if" personally.

That did cost us at least one Cup.

 

[mercury]

Had they not traded Weinrich and Therian; OR even just kept one of them.

Two more; if the always rumored Yzerman for Hextall trade back in the day ever went through. Flyer get Gtetzky

Keeping Weinrich would have been huge.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

2004 was mentioned more than once. Without a doubt amongst the creepiest seasons in team history. The amount of injuries that club endured was only challenged by the freakishness of how they occurred.

Eric Desjardins got wiped out by his teammate Jeremy Roenick on a check and missed... 8-10 weeks? What made that an additional oddity was Roenick was issued a one-game suspension for throwing a water bottle at Blaine Angus (ref) but the suspension was reduced to one game from originally issued three or supposedly so. That was when Roenick uttered the "So this is what it is like to be a Flyer (or words to that affect)" after a non-call left him with a bloody mouth. The first game back after the 1-game (not 3) suspension was when he injured Desjardins.

Desjardins comes back in the final week then snaps the inserted metal plate playing catch with his son.

Roenick got 20+ stitches in the face from a Recchi slapshot in practice. Roenick had the well-documented jaw injury at NYR that kept him out a few weeks.

Dennis Seidenberg broke his leg at practice after Marcus Ragnarsson fell on him and missed many months.

Ragnarsson missed the last four or five games of the TB Conference Finals.

Kim Johnsson and the broken hand in the TOR series.

Anyone remember the starting goalie that season? Jeff Hackett. He retired with vertigo mid-season. Then Robert Esche got injured twice including once after becoming the de facto starter.

I probably could go on. 2004 was a nightmare wrapped inside a conundrum.

 

[Lord Defect]

What if the flyers never traded Scottie Upshall for Carcillo?(probably nothing, I just wanted to contribute a little bit)

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

What if the flyers never traded Scottie Upshall for Carcillo?(probably nothing, I just wanted to contribute a little bit)

I tuned into radio while watching the PO game Carcillo scored in OT against NJ. I am not sure if the instrument has been invented that could properly register the decibel level of Tim Saunders' goal call.

 

[Larry44]

2004 was mentioned more than once. Without a doubt amongst the creepiest seasons in team history. The amount of injuries that club endured was only challenged by the freakishness of how they occurred.

Eric Desjardins got wiped out by his teammate Jeremy Roenick on a check and missed... 8-10 weeks? What made that an additional oddity was Roenick was issued a one-game suspension for throwing a water bottle at Blaine Angus (ref) but the suspension was reduced to one game from originally issued three or supposedly so. That was when Roenick uttered the "So this is what it is like to be a Flyer (or words to that affect)" after a non-call left him with a bloody mouth. The first game back after the 1-game (not 3) suspension was when he injured Desjardins.

Desjardins comes back in the final week then snaps the inserted metal plate playing catch with his son.

Roenick got 20+ stitches in the face from a Recchi slapshot in practice. Roenick had the well-documented jaw injury at NYR that kept him out a few weeks.

Dennis Seidenberg broke his leg at practice after Marcus Ragnarsson fell on him and missed many months.

Kim Johnsson and the broken hand in the TOR series.

Anyone remember the starting goalie that season? Jeff Hackett. He retired with vertigo mid-season. Then Robert Esche got injured twice including once after becoming the de facto starter.

I probably could go on. 2004 was a nightmare wrapped inside a conundrum.

I am still mad at Roenick for killing the team’s chances vs TBay by being too cocky and fancy. I can’t remember which game, but he had the puck in the NZ and instead of advancing it, he dipsy doodled back into the D zone and coughed it up. The puck went to Fredrick Modin who cranked a shot, broke Marcus Ragnarsson’s hand and we were screwed. F JR.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Something that's always intrigued me is if Clarke hadn't been fired in 1990. According to Clarke, he had written down notes on how he planned to turn the Flyers around. Clarke intended on sharing his ideas in the meeting with Jay Snider, but was fired instead. What was Clarke's plan? Would Clarke really have drafted Jagr? Did Clarke draw little hearts next to Jagr and Derian Hatcher's name in his notes? So many questions.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

I am still mad at Roenick for killing the team’s chances vs TBay by being too cocky and fancy. I can’t remember which game, but he had the puck in the NZ and instead of advancing it, he dipsy doodled back into the D zone and coughed it up. The puck went to Fredrick Modin who cranked a shot, broke Marcus Ragnarsson’s hand and we were screwed. F JR.

And I overlooked that injury in the bemusement above.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Something that's always intrigued me is if Clarke hadn't been fired in 1990. According to Clarke, he had written down notes on how he planned to turn the Flyers around. Clarke intended on sharing his ideas in the meeting with Jay Snider, but was fired instead. What was Clarke's plan? Would Clarke really have drafted Jagr? Did Clarke draw little hearts next to Jagr and Derian Hatcher's name in his notes? So many questions.

With the "what if" scenario. Russ Farwell tried to acquire Petr Nedved via moving up in that season's draft. The two had a relationship in the Canadian Jrs. and his most interest included a trade with Vancouver (NHL) as the prime partner.

Gerry Melynk was the Flyers chief scout at the time. He had cited Jaromir Jagr as the best player in the draft. But there was also the unknown and that was Jagr's immediate availability. Mike Ricci was the safest pick in that "top five" as it was billed. He also had the "Next Bobby Clarke" label. With the Flyers not making the playoffs for the first time in nearly 20 years, it would have been a tough sell to draft Jagr after Clarke's dismissal.

Ricci had the "leader" label and that was the eventual sell. This was post-Clarke as GM. If Clarke retained the GM's position.... no, can't go any further because Jay was involved too much and wanted to make his own mark on the organization. That is why Poulin and Propp were sold to Boston; Clarke wanted to get them onto a championship contender.

Farwell was the mastermind behind drafting Forsberg the following season. If the Flyers drafted Jagr and Forsberg in consecutive drafts that would be a nice duo; however, we return to Clarke being the GM and taking Jagr and what followed would be different than actuality. Unless he was fired after that season next season, it is unlikely the Flyers draft Forsberg without Farwell as GM. The "if" label here works both ways.

(cleaned for better sentence structure)

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Dennis Seidenberg broke his leg at practice after Marcus Ragnarsson fell on him and missed many months.

"Fell" on him. Cagey veteran move!



Re: Clarke and Jagr, I've either seen or read an interview with Clarke in the past few years where he indicated he probably wouldn't have taken Jagr, either -- just too much uncertainty around the Iron Curtain.



They did end up acquiring some other all-stars from that draft, eventually (as was the Flyer Way): Primeau, Derian Hatcher, Geoff Sanderson, Zhamnov, Jaro Modry. Oh, and Jagr, too.

Also, just skimming: Mark Greig, John Slaney, Karl Dykhuis, Shawn Antoski, Gilbert Dionne, Odjick, Dan Kordic, Turner Stevenson, Stew Malgunas, Kovalenko, Zelepukin. [All in addition to the guys they actually drafted.] On the whole, they ended up getting a lot of punches out of that draft!

 

[Beef Invictus]

When? He was traded to Buffalo.

I thought they had to re sign him at some point

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

"Fell" on him. Cagey veteran move!



Re: Clarke and Jagr, I've either seen or read an interview with Clarke in the past few years where he indicated he probably wouldn't have taken Jagr, either -- just too much uncertainty around the Iron Curtain.



They did end up acquiring some other all-stars from that draft, eventually (as was the Flyer Way): Primeau, Derian Hatcher, Geoff Sanderson, Zhamnov, Jaro Modry. Oh, and Jagr, too.

Also, just skimming: Mark Greig, John Slaney, Karl Dykhuis, Shawn Antoski, Gilbert Dionne, Odjick, Dan Kordic, Turner Stevenson, Stew Malgunas, Kovalenko, Zelepukin. [All in addition to the guys they actually drafted.] On the whole, they ended up getting a lot of punches out of that draft!

What does Bob McCammon have to do with 2004?

@BiggE will appreciate the reference.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

I thought they had to re sign him at some point

That could have been. I seem to recall Rich Winter was his agent and that is the man who advised Ron Hextall to sit out in (1989) prior to Steve Mountain representing Hexy.

Hasek wanted to be traded to a contender and that is how he went from BUF to DET.