The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Sabresfansince1980]

Give me as many ROR's as you can. Guy never took a shift off let alone a game. Gretzky and Messier couldn't lead this list of players below

My feeling is that ROR was sick of the team pretending like the wanted to win and he was wasting his best years playing on a team that plodded out 10 guys last year that aren't in the NHL anymore.

Jacob Josefson
Victor Antipin
Matt Tennyson
Ben Pouliot
Matt Moulson
Seth Griffith
Josh Gorges
Jordan Nolan
Hudson Fasching
Nick Bapstiste
Chad Johnson (soon to be out of NHL w 2-11 record)

That's 10+ players that played a substantial amount of games for the Sabres just last season. Maybe instead of pointing the finger at ROR we should have built around a top 6 of Eichel/Skinner and ROR/Reinhart.

Sure, he was very good on the ice, aside from later last season (not a huge deal). But even though he was sick of losing (per his comments) he still also, at least publicly, stated he wanted to stick out the turnaround for this team. If he did get sick of it to the point of wanting out, then that really does just confirm he wasn't going to be a good enough leader to push through the bad times and on toward the good. I'm not saying that's the case, but a good leader would stick through it...similar to what's happened in StL...

Still, it boils down to how much off-ice bad should an organization be willing to put up with for the on-ice good. O'Reilly was looking shaky for a while in Buffalo in that regard.

 

[joshjull]

Blues fan here. I've enjoyed the honest discussion and perspective from Sabres fans who have known him longer. (I am not here to troll.) We had several Sabres posters that posted on the Blues forum after the trade, but tended to attract mostly people who seemed to be there to enjoy the Blues' early season struggles and somehow try to tie it to O'Reilly. In reality, it felt like he was the lone bright spot in the early season.

I wanted to expand on what Plager said a little bit. I think O'Reilly's motor has been a large part of what has gotten Tarasenko back to being productive. Vlad had to overcome offseason shoulder surgery as well. But I think his compete level is sometimes inconsistent when he gets frustrated. He's never really gotten to play with a center who could set him up so effectively before. Fortunately for Tarasenko, he can create a lot of his own offense. But its not O'Reilly's play-making that is the key here. I think his shift-to-shift intensity and non-stop motor has been what has kept the compete level high, and embarrassed his linemates into doing the same. You don't want to be the guy out there loafing when ROR is busting his ass right next to you to maintain possession in the zone, only for you to squander it.

The Blues season was hanging by a thread. Many teams would have packed it in, just looked forward to the draft, and gone through the motions. We know Armstrong took calls, with almost no one off limits (including Pietrangelo and Tarasnko). But I credit ROR as being the glue that kept the team from caving in completely.

Berube's simpler message has helped. Having a competent goalie that is not Allen has helped a lot, but the turnaround started prior to Binnington's call-up. But I don't think either of those guys could have had enough of an impact to matter if the fighting spirit of the team had left, and I credit ROR more than any other player for that. I feel like he has saved our season.

So has O'Reilly changed? Is he a different guy than he was in Buffalo? Did the trade shock something into him? I don't understand why a GM would part with him unless it was an over-payment or an offer that could not be refused.

I think its obvious what changed. ROR is in the best situation of his career. He plays on a team with an established leadership group, its also the deepest team he's been on and the best talent he's played with both on his line and the overall roster. It allows him to just work hard and play his game. He doesn't have the burdens he had here on and off the ice. I don't think its remotely a coincidence he's on pace to blow away his previous best season's production in this situation.

 

[sabremike]

I think its obvious what changed. ROR is in the best situation of his career. He plays on a team with an established leadership group, its also the deepest team he's been on and the best talent he's played with both on his line and the overall roster. It allows him to just work hard and play his game. He doesn't have the burdens he had here on and off the ice. I don't think its remotely a coincidence he's on pace to blow away his previous best season's production in this situation.

It's only been said here repeatedly that ROR's stats were artificially suppressed by Housley's usage of him.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Huh? He's just as effectively replaced in the role he was playing by the Girgensons-Larsson duo. People who were giving the coach the benefit of the doubt are turning on him now, as it's clear he is terrible at player usage. People didn't think ROR was providing enough offense on-top of the minutes he was provided. It's clear to all now that if ROR was played with Eichel and Reinhart he would be productive, but there is no evidence he would be making a second offensive line with the chumps we have on wing. The trade was to trade a top piece for multiples, since depth is this team's biggest problem. Having the best 2nd line center in the league is meaningless when you have William Carrier on his wing. We got Thompson, another 1st round pick, and Sobotka and Berglund to fill in 3rd/4th line depth. Unfortunately Berglund was serviceable, but left, and our coach has a hard-on for the dump-in Sobotka, but in concept it's still fine and nothing has changed tune or shifted narrative. Any new coach should be given a benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to learn and change, and Housley has simply out-warmed that welcome.

Trading your second best player for late first and a few bottom six pieces to "fix the depth." Brilliant concept!

Where can we find another teams GM that thinks trading away a really good player for multiple mediocre depth pieces and a late first is a good concept, so we can fleece them instead.

 

[Jim Bob]

View media item 4099
Here is an interesting look at ROR last year vs this year.

 

[KeepKane]

Sure, he was very good on the ice, aside from later last season (not a huge deal). But even though he was sick of losing (per his comments) he still also, at least publicly, stated he wanted to stick out the turnaround for this team. If he did get sick of it to the point of wanting out, then that really does just confirm he wasn't going to be a good enough leader to push through the bad times and on toward the good. I'm not saying that's the case, but a good leader would stick through it...similar to what's happened in StL...

Still, it boils down to how much off-ice bad should an organization be willing to put up with for the on-ice good. O'Reilly was looking shaky for a while in Buffalo in that regard.

We would've been much better with ROR, especially after replacing the slugs I mentioned----> easier to lead the team this year with Skinner, DAHLIN, Sheary, Middlestadt being added. Eichel/Skinner and whoever on a line. ROR/Reinhart and whoever on another line. Girgs/Larson and a body on another line. Spare parts on 3rd/4th line. Doesn't seem difficult to me. This team is at least 10 points better, maybe more. Our PP was #1 in the league with ROR, Eichel, Reinhart, Risto 3 years ago with all(or at least 3/4) of these players still growing, learning and improving. Housley waked into a team with all 5 of the #1 unit of the #1 PP and managed to botch that. I just don't get it. JB got rid of most of the slugs, should've tried again with ROR. If it didn't work, you change the coach before changing one of your core players.

 

[GellMann]

View media item 4099
Here is an interesting look at ROR last year vs this year.

The predictive stats were there, and the counting ones suppressed, as predicted and outlined extensively all year last season by people on this forum

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Going back to a trade idea I had. If O'Reilly was going, I wanted Hanifin and Lindholm from Carolina. Does Carolina take O'Reilly (and maybe a plus like McCabe or prospect) instead of Ferland and Hamilton? It's easy to look at the cap hits and value and say, "hell yeah and the Sabres would be killing it right now". But really...does Carolina make that trade or did they want a stud RHD that badly instead?

 

[joshjull]

It's only been said here repeatedly that ROR's stats were artificially suppressed by Housley's usage of him.

You’re kind of missing the point. He is putting up the best numbers of his career and is on pace to blow away his best season. This may come as a shock but Housley only coached him 1 season not his entire career.

His previous best 2 seasons.

13-14 (Col) 80gms -> 28g 36a 64pts
15-16 (Buf) 71gms -> 21g 39a 60pts (on pace for 24g 45a 69pts)

His current numbers with the Blues

18-19 (Stl.) 59gm -> 23g 38a 61pts (on pace for 32g 53a 85pts)

ROR is playing the best hockey of his career and its for reasons beyond just being away from Housley. The situation he is in with the Blues is perfect for him and the best of his career.

 

[67Blues]

It's funny how the Blues season's roller coaster has been more about the coaching and goaltending than anything else.

And now that the Sabres are struggling plenty of people are pointing fingers at coaching and goaltending.

I wasn't so much that as the sum of a lot of things along with a lot of new players that instilled a culture of a team that was weak mentally. You could see that where they would get up by 2 goals and you just knew that they would lose. And I think at one point they had not won a 1 goal game and were something ridiculous like 0-11-2. That losing culture had to be shook out of the team starting with lazy play from the stars and vets. The only engine that has been constant this season was ROR, and I think that it took getting a coach fired, your starting goalie benched, and retired Blues coming in and shaming the team to knock them out of that.

I wonder if Buffalo needs a bit of a shakeup like that to get their heads in the game? You have talent, but if that culture slowly creeps in, the players tend to think how are we going to lose this game instead of how are we going to win.

 

[enthusiast]

I understand with our death spiral and STL's win streak tensions are particularly high, but that's no excuse to revert into bad posting. Consider this the warning.

 

[jBuds]

“Death spiral” is so appropriately labeled.

 

[slip]

You’re kind of missing the point. He is putting up the best numbers of his career and is on pace to blow away his best season. This may come as a shock but Housley only coached him 1 season not his entire career.

His previous best 2 seasons.

13-14 (Col) 80gms -> 28g 36a 64pts
15-16 (Buf) 71gms -> 21g 39a 60pts (on pace for 24g 45a 69pts)

His current numbers with the Blues

18-19 (Stl.) 59gm -> 23g 38a 61pts (on pace for 32g 53a 85pts)

ROR is playing the best hockey of his career and its for reasons beyond just being away from Housley. The situation he is in with the Blues is perfect for him and the best of his career.

It wasn’t too long ago the Blues were in last place and there was talk of trading off core pieces and starting over. I fail to see how navigating that stretch qualifies as a perfect situation for him, or as one of the best situations in his career. It was probably the darkest and hardest moment of his career.

 

[sabrebuild]

“Death spiral” is so appropriately labeled.

Death spiral is on the mark.

 

[joshjull]

It wasn’t too long ago the Blues were in last place and there was talk of trading off core pieces and starting over. I fail to see how navigating that stretch qualifies as a perfect situation for him, or as one of the best situations in his career. It was probably the darkest and hardest moment of his career.

Maybe if you stepped back and remembered ROR was on two teams in Colorado that finished 29th, also finished 31st last season with us and has only made the playoffs 2x in his career. Then you would realize how silly the bold is. He’s played on more than a few crappy teams who were crappy from start to finish. The Blues were 7-9-3 when Yeo was fired at the 19 game mark after roughly a month and a half. We were 5-10-4 at the same point last season and sinking.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

 

[sabrebuild]

Maybe if you stepped back and remembered ROR was on two teams in Colorado that finished 29th, also finished 31st last season with us and has only made the playoffs 2x in his career. Then you would realize how silly the bold is. He’s played on more than a few crappy teams who were crappy from start to finish. The Blues were 7-9-3 when Yeo was fired at the 19 game mark after roughly a month and a half. We were 5-10-4 at the same point last season and sinking.

I suspect he meant it was the darkest because after having those hard times already, he got traded to what should be a good team that was expected to be playoff bound and like groundhogs day his team was crap despite his best efforts.

Obviously that has reversed itself quite nicely for him.

I don’t see much value in the idea the Blues leadership group giving O’Reilly this comfort level that allowed him to reach another level.

I mean who are those guys? Pietrangelo and Tarasenko maybe? They brought in a lot of youth and new pieces this year.

Isn’t a simpler answer that scoring is up league wide, as you said, and that he is playing a couple less minutes with two good linemates regularly?

I mean his whole time with us, his best linemate was young Reinhart and half a year of solid Okposo, and normally someone who had no business being a top 6 player.

Here’s a possibility. Is it likely that as someone else said, O’Reilly was artificially suppressed offensively by his insane usage and generally crappy teammates and his year in st. Lou is part upgrade of on ice talent, part league wide scoring increase and part career year?

I think that is more likely than expectations weighed him down. It just seems to me there are a lot of concrete reasons for offensive improvement that can be looked at before we go down intangible road.

 

[slip]

Maybe if you stepped back and remembered ROR was on two teams in Colorado that finished 29th, also finished 31st last season with us and has only made the playoffs 2x in his career. Then you would realize how silly the bold is. He’s played on more than a few crappy teams who were crappy from start to finish. The Blues were 7-9-3 when Yeo was fired at the 19 game mark after roughly a month and a half. We were 5-10-4 at the same point last season and sinking.

He was on his third team that imploded out of the gate. ROR faced immediate adversity but showed up and worked hard. Blues fans unanimously point to his work ethic and production as the only consistent strength during a very cold streak. That’s not being put in a perfect situation. That’s all about working harder and pushing back to create a better one.

 

[jBuds]

He was on his third team that imploded out of the gate. ROR faced immediate adversity but showed up and worked hard. Blues fans unanimously point to his work ethic and production as the only consistent strength during a very cold streak. That’s not being put in a perfect situation. That’s all about working harder and pushing back to create a better one.

Agreed. Well put.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[truthbluth]

I've come to terms with the O'Reilly trade. I keep forgetting a thing that I knew at the time. Some people are a bad fit for the city of Buffalo. Just as some people are a bad fit for big cities with lots going on, and others are a bad fit for the Canadian microscope. There are certain, let's say, personality traits that don't mix well with the city of Buffalo. I think Lehner was a prime example. But O'Reilly is too. Time to let it go. It's not all about what happens on the ice.

 

[Dreakon13]

I've come to terms with the O'Reilly trade. I keep forgetting a thing that I knew at the time. Some people are a bad fit for the city of Buffalo. Just as some people are a bad fit for big cities with lots going on, and others are a bad fit for the Canadian microscope. There are certain, let's say, personality traits that don't mix well with the city of Buffalo. I think Lehner was a prime example. But O'Reilly is too. Time to let it go. It's not all about what happens on the ice.

Was there anything really indicating ROR was a "bad fit for Buffalo" as far as the city goes though?

IMO, it all just boils down to the team needing a big change after a particularly horrendous year and Botts not really having many other options. The bad players on bad contracts are the ones that should've moved... but those are the most difficult players to move for obvious reasons. And he wasn't going to move the younger or cheaper pieces, again for obvious reasons. Not to mention ROR went and painted a target on his own back with those comments. And then the bonus. Who knows, he could've quietly requested the trade. He certainly seemed rejuvenated the second his plane landed in STL.

The only move that could've had that same effect as the ROR trade... with potentially better on-ice results... would've probably been moving Risto. But in the same way Murray brought ROR in to make things easier for Eichel... Botts probably wanted Risto there to eat minutes for Dahlin (even if he's not necessarily great in those minutes).

My only regert with the ROR trade is not getting a better return. That being said, I actually see some potential in Thompson and 1sts are always welcome... so whatever.

 

[Zip15]

Vogl still out there shilling for management re: the ROR trade. Pathetic.

We can all see it coming, right? St. Louis will keep roaring right through the Stanley Cup final, and O’Reilly will score the winning goal in overtime. They’ll remake the Conn Smythe Trophy into a guitar in his honor.

And trading him will still have been in Buffalo’s best interest.

Look, O’Reilly is a really good hockey player. As each day passes, the return Buffalo got for the center is looking worse and worse … and worse. Patrik Berglund quit in December, and he was still tied with Vladimir Sobotka in goals over the past three months (zero) until his trade partner finally potted a meaningless one this week, ending a 42-game drought. Tage Thompson is young and raw, and the first-round pick might be late in the round.

So scream about the trade result – go ahead, let that scream out – but don’t bemoan the trade. O’Reilly wasn’t going to lead the Sabres out of the cellar, so the team chose to be a seller.

I know everyone wants salacious stories and tantalizing tales that will make the departure easier to stomach. Sorry, this isn’t the National Enquirer. He just wasn’t the role model that a young team needed to be its leader and competitive conscience. The Sabres knew that.

It sure would have been nice to get more for him, though.

"It sure would have been nice to get more for him, though" is tantamount to saying "Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Sabres mailbag: John Vogl answers questions on the team's...

 

[kirby11]

"Player who is renowned for his work ethic and never taking a shift off cannot be the team's competitive conscience" is an insane spin job, but keep drinking the kool-aid, Vogl. Especially when the guys who came back in the trade can hardly be lauded for playing with intensity or urgency on any sort of a regular basis.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Maybe if you stepped back and remembered ROR was on two teams in Colorado that finished 29th, also finished 31st last season with us and has only made the playoffs 2x in his career. Then you would realize how silly the bold is. He’s played on more than a few crappy teams who were crappy from start to finish. The Blues were 7-9-3 when Yeo was fired at the 19 game mark after roughly a month and a half. We were 5-10-4 at the same point last season and sinking.

I don’t think it’s silly at all - he was playing on yet ANOTHER team that couldn’t get anything going, sitting at the bottom of the standings after yet another long stretch of losses, right after being traded. I could easily see how that could be a low point of his career - luckily it was only brief, however frustrating it was for him.