the road to recovery - the bottom 5 Atlantic teams

[CauZuki]

Montreal is dangerously close to being stuck in the 20-30 range. That Price contract is going to restrict their moves for a few years until the cap rises enough to adjust

It's the same % on the cap , even with nominal cap inflation than a guy like Lundqvist , at worst he is overpaid by 1-1.5M.
Far from a big problem that can't be addressed as required. The main issue in Montreal is the management , much better comparable to Toronto (than Detroit) , I just think Toronto doesn't want to be associated to anything Montreal (and that's fine).

New management and Montreal could be competitive again by 2019-2020 (for all the points I've mentionned in this thread , if anyone cares for logic).

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Once again a statement that has no bearing of fact and more of made up fiction...

Everybody in Montreal is underachieving this year and just a reminder (over the last 5 years):

In regards to Weber , last I checked a top 2D is still worth 6-8M on a case by case basis , so even if Habs have to retain a little (which they easily can with the cap space) he's easily worth a very good prospect and a 1st.

You can't dismiss Habs prospect/young players that are doing well (or have real potential) and at the same time say their elite vets have no value without providing any kind of proof at all.

I'm not saying he never had value, I just don't know how high it is now. There's a lot of scoring LWers who might be available to rent, and he doesn't really stand out above the rest at the moment.

Weber is easily worth his contract right now, but it's hard to say he'll be worth it for its entire duration. It probably won't be

 

[CauZuki]

This post reminds me so much of the Kessel days. Leaf fans constantly posting charts of Phil's dominance over the years proving he's a top player. Of course they are right, but Kessel couldn't carry a team. If all you ask of him is to put up numbers and nothing else, a hell of a player.

Nobody at all said anything about carrying the team , why are you moving the goalpost?

We are talking about trade value , Pacioretty doesn't have a hefty contract like Kessel , so saying he doesn't have appropriate value is ridiculous...

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

As a Wings fan, it’s hard to say pre TDL and draft lottery, but if both go well, I expect the Wings to challange again for a playoff spot in two years, and be really good again in three.

Larkin, AA, Mantha, Bertuzzi, and Frk are all good complimentary pieces, but we still need something more. Luckily, we will have a ton of cap soon, as well as tons of picks this year.

If we can get Dahlin and lure a big time FA while having even sligjtly above average drafting along the way, and I think the Wings can be a contender again in 4ish years. It sucks short term, but long term I’m not worried

 

[CauZuki]

I'm not saying he never had value, I just don't know how high it is now. There's a lot of scoring LWers who might be available to rent, and he doesn't really stand out above the rest at the moment.

Weber is easily worth his contract right now, but it's hard to say he'll be worth it for its entire duration. It probably won't be

He has a very low salary at the end and if he retires Nashville pays the cap re-capture fee , a team trying to win over the next 2-4 years could definately use Weber. I think you can understand that I am not some naive Habs fan that thinks everything is sunshine and roses. I'm a big supporter of rebuilding , getting rid of the current management and I've been very vocal about it on the Habs board.

It's just some things stated in these type of threads are a blatant exagerration and stink of heavy bias.
I personally don't buy in to the "you have to trash rival mentality" , I like Matthews/Marner/Nylander even a fan of Rielly.

All I ask is for posters to be more honest and real , you can't have a climate where other assets are traded for strong value but suddenly when it comes to the Habs their best veterans are not worth anything.

It doesn't make for a decent back and forth or anything resembling a good hockey discussion.
I am very confident (judging on overall value and past trade history) that Weber and Pacioretty can each get you a solid prospect and a 1st.

The main issue I have is that none of my ideas are realistic until the management is completly revamped (this is why Montreal and Toronto are more similar than most want to admit in terms of where the Leafs were a few years ago).

 

[Razz]

Nobody at all said anything about carrying the team , why are you moving the goalpost?

We are talking about trade value , Pacioretty doesn't have a hefty contract like Kessel , so saying he doesn't have appropriate value is ridiculous...

I'm not just describing how similar the Montreal situation feels to the Toronto situation.

 

[CauZuki]

I'm not just describing how similar the Montreal situation feels to the Toronto situation.

Yes I agree, Habs situation is similar in terms of where they are today and where Toronto was a few years ago.

Where I disagree is where people came in to defend Kessel , well I'm not defending Pacioretty the C has weighed too much on him. You have a 40 goal scorer in Pacioretty on any other team where he doesn't have to be the main guy. Most reasonable Habs fan acknowledge this fact but that doesn't mean his value is nothing special (as described in this thread multiple times).

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

He has a very low salary at the end and if he retires Nashville pays the cap re-capture fee , a team trying to win over the next 2-4 years could definately use Weber. I think you can understand that I am not some naive Habs fan that thinks everything is sunshine and roses. I'm a big supporter of rebuilding , getting rid of the current management and I've been very vocal about it on the Habs board.

It's just some things stated in these type of threads are a blatant exagerration and stink of heavy bias.
I personally don't buy in to the "you have to trash rival mentality" , I like Matthews/Marner/Nylander even a fan of Rielly.

All I ask is for posters to be more honest and real , you can't have a climate where other assets are traded for strong value but suddenly when it comes to the Habs their best veterans are not worth anything.

It doesn't make for a decent back and forth or anything resembling a good hockey discussion.
I am very confident (judging on overall value and past trade history) that Weber and Pacioretty can each get you a solid prospect and a 1st.

The main issue I have is that none of my ideas are realistic until the management is completly revamped (this is why Montreal and Toronto are more similar than most want to admit in terms of where the Leafs were a few years ago).

it's nothing personal, I just don't think Montreal is in a good spot. It doesn't mean they'll be there forever, but there's a lot of work they have to do. You're 100% right that the management has to be revamped and I have no problem admitting that the Habs position reminds me a lot of the Leafs. I also think we were pretty lucky to get out of it

 

[Razz]

Yes I agree, Habs situation is similar in terms of where they are today and where Toronto was a few years ago.

Where I disagree is where people came in to defend Kessel , well I'm not defending Pacioretty the C has weighed too much on him. You have a 40 goal scorer in Pacioretty on any other team where he doesn't have to be the pain guy. Most reasonable Habs fan acknowledge this fact but that doesn't mean his value is nothing special (as described in this thread multiple times).

Yep I agree, he'd flourish in the right situation, just like Kessel did in Pittsburgh. No cameras in his face after every bad game. Crosby handles that. Patches should get a hefty return and most definitely is a desirable piece.

 

[CauZuki]

it's nothing personal, I just don't think Montreal is in a good spot. It doesn't mean they'll be there forever, but there's a lot of work they have to do. You're 100% right that the management has to be revamped and I have no problem admitting that the Habs position reminds me a lot of the Leafs. I also think we were pretty lucky to get out of it

Do you think it's more pure luck or luck driven by positive changes of your management?
Multiple decades of medicore results and new management gets hired from top to bottom and all of a sudden you get lucky?

I am convinced that new management could turn this team around over the next couple of years.
Habs are heading towards a top 5-7 pick in the next draft and have quite a few picks in 2018.

This summer could really make a big difference on how you perceive Montreal (imo) but once again this is all dependant on new management.
Especially with a team that has a budget like Montreal , there should be no excuse to acquire the best of the best when it comes to management.

 

[KingsFan7824]

This division is always convulsing.

Right now, both Montreal and Ottawa are looking at almost 30 point drops from last year, and both Tampa Bay and Boston are looking at 20 point improvements. Possibly four 20-30 point swings in one year. Montreal(2), Florida, and Buffalo combined for 4 between 14-15 and 16-17.

Montreal is crazy. Since realignment, they've gone from 110 points, to 82, to 103, and now on pace for 76. Just toying with people's emotions.

 

[CauZuki]

This division is always convulsing.

Right now, both Montreal and Ottawa are looking at almost 30 point drops from last year, and both Tampa Bay and Boston are looking at 20 point improvements. Possibly four 20-30 point swings in one year. Montreal(2), Florida, and Buffalo combined for 4 between 14-15 and 16-17.

Montreal is crazy. Since realignment, they've gone from 110 points, to 82, to 103, and now on pace for 76. Just toying with people's emotions.

Crazy management will do that to you , not consistently firing and re-hiring the same coach may also be a good idea , letting strong UFA walk for nothing is also an issue... Ironically enough it they may have accidentally forced a rebuild , where Habs will get some sweet picks in 2018...Hopefully Habs keep playing mediocre hockey , I have nightmares of them going on a crazy run at the end only to not make the playoffs and draft in the 10-15 range...

 

[Razz]

Do you think it's more pure luck or luck driven by positive changes of your management?
Multiple decades of medicore results and new management gets hired from top to bottom and all of a sudden you get lucky?

I am convinced that new management could turn this team around over the next couple of years.
Habs are heading towards a top 5-7 pick in the next draft and have quite a few picks in 2018.

This summer could really make a big difference on how you perceive Montreal (imo) but once again this is all dependant on new management.
Especially with a team that has a budget like Montreal , there should be no excuse to acquire the best of the best when it comes to management.

I think Montreal needs a longer rebuild approach. Admittedly that's a precarious situation due to Price though. Price will always give them a lift however he will prevent a full bottoming out. Working the cap to the absolute maximum by grabbing bad contracts for assets is the way to go these days for quick rebuilds. Question is, can they do it with Price? We'll see.

 

[CauZuki]

I think Montreal needs a longer rebuild approach. Admittedly that's a precarious situation due to Price though. Price will always give them a lift however he will prevent a full bottoming out. Working the cap to the absolute maximum by grabbing bad contracts for assets is the way to go these days for quick rebuilds. Question is, can they do it with Price? We'll see.

Price was pretty much healthy this year , why are we at the bottom of the standings?
Quick rebuild is possible but it needs to be elite management that has a clear vision and knows how to execute said vision. Obviously a bit of lottery luck can't hurt but I prefer to lean on theories that don't involve getting lucky.

The main point is that I still don't think the Habs are in as bad of a situation as described by OP. Especially when compared with Detroit , Habs are in better position.

Habs have more young players that have produced more.
Habs top veterans are worth more than what Detroit has.
Habs team is younger overall but (imo) the difference is negligible. (since Detroit average age is raised by a few players)

I don't see how anyone can say Detroit is in better position , unfortunately they are suffering from being a perrenial playoff team. They had one heck of a run over the last 2 decades but I think their journey will be longer when compared to Montreal.

 

[klmdg]

Weber is easily tradeable and so is Pacioretty , you can devalue assets all you want but that doesn't imply the Habs are in some kind of dire situation. Is Price being overpaid by 1.5M handicapping this team?

At the bare minimum we are looking at a near blue chip prospect and a 1st for each.

Price is due 26 million in bonuses in the next 17 months alone and a total of 45.75 million in bonuses in the next 41 months. Unless the Habs retain 50%, he is basically a worthless asset until July 2, 2022.

 

[CauZuki]

Price is due 26 million in bonuses in the next 17 months alone and a total of 45.75 million in bonuses in the next 41 months. Unless the Habs retain 50%, he is basically a worthless asset until July 2, 2022.

This is how most elite players contracts are structured nowadays , does that mean that the rest of the league has to retain 50% on their best players? Also never said anything about trading Price , so don't understand the point of this post.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I said they are good base for adding elite pieces , which with proper drafting and leveraging our older assets is possible.
It's all dependant on proper management , this is the main condition , without this I 100% agree Habs are heading no where.

I never said it's the next upcoming young team , I simply stated if you have Detroit up there , you have to at least discuss the Habs. I pointed out the bias of putting Detroit there and completly dismissing the Habs. It's especially rich when teams that have been bad for many years , start coming together only to bash other teams that they perceive trending down. This is why I mention the inferiority complex because it describes this behaviour exactly.

In fact as of today (in terms of future potential) I see the bottom 5 teams as:

Florida
Buffalo
Montreal
Ottawa
Detroit

Thing with Detroit is our bad contracts aren't crippling. We most end in a couple years and we don't have any star players to keep us out of the basement. The Habs have Price and his terrible contract to keep them competitive and out of the top 5 picks that are needed to become good (see Toronto for a decade).

 

[klmdg]

This is how most elite players contracts are structured nowadays , does that mean that the rest of the league has to retain 50% on their best players?

You do realize he is 30, a goalie, and currently not even top 10 in the league at his position, right?

At his best, Price was only marginally better than the rest of the top 10 at his position. We are talking a few goals saved over the course of a whole season. His wages for the next 4 years (13+ million) will be 2 to 3 times what comparable goalies make. Even if he returns to his very best, the premium on his contract for an extra 5 saves per year is 5 to 8 million.

 

[CauZuki]

You do realize he is 30, a goalie, and currently not even top 10 in the league at his position, right?

At his best, Price was only marginally better than the rest of the top 10 at his position. We are talking a few goals saved over the course of a whole season. His wages for the next 4 years (13+ million) will be 2 to 3 times what comparable goalies make. Even if he returns to his very best, the premium on his contract for an extra 5 saves per year is 5 to 8 million.

Goalies tend to be at their best between 27-33 if you look at the stats , one season where the whole team is playing awfully does not mean Carey isn't a top 10 goalie. Similar age that Henrik signed his current contract and similar % on cap. I simply mentionned that Price is at worst overpaid by 1-1.5M and that won't cripple the Habs (not from trading but from rebuilding).

Once again I repeat , when did I or anyone mention trading Price?

 

[CauZuki]

Thing with Detroit is our bad contracts aren't crippling. We most end in a couple years and we don't have any star players to keep us out of the basement. The Habs have Price and his terrible contract to keep them competitive and out of the top 5 picks that are needed to become good (see Toronto for a decade).

How can that be true , if we have a healthy Price this year and are currently sitting at the bottom?

I don't understand please clarify.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How can that be true , if we have a healthy Price this year and are currently sitting at the bottom?

I don't understand please clarify.

He has been injured, as has Weber. So now you have two 30+ year olds taking up like $20M of your cap and look to be on the downswing of their career but yet are signed forever.

 

[klmdg]

Once again I repeat , when did I or anyone mention trading Price?

Ummmmmmmmm, your exact words were:

You can devalue assets all you want but that doesn't imply the Habs are in some kind of dire situation. Is Price being overpaid by 1.5M handicapping this team?

At the bare minimum we are looking at a near blue chip prospect and a 1st for each.

You clearly stated that Price was an asset who could be moved to improve your team and that his worth was at least a 1st and a blue chip prospect.

I responded that he is actually a negative asset for the next 4 years unless your team retains an insane amount of money.

You disagreed.

I then showed why he is a negative asset, and you come back with:

Once again I repeat, when did I or anyone mention trading Price?

 

[CauZuki]

He has been injured, as has Weber. So now you have two 30+ year olds taking up like $20M of your cap and look to be on the downswing of their career but yet are signed forever.

Injured? He suffered from some fatigue just a lame excuse to justify how mediocre the DD He's healthy now and is maintaining similar stats.
Remind me how Weber getting one of his first long-term injury in his career equal to a downswing? Unless you are a saying 20 goals and 40-45+ points is a downswing?

 

[CauZuki]

Ummmmmmmmm, your exact words were:

You can devalue assets all you want but that doesn't imply the Habs are in some kind of dire situation. Is Price being overpaid by 1.5M handicapping this team?

At the bare minimum we are looking at a near blue chip prospect and a 1st for each.

You clearly stated that Price was an asset who could be moved to improve your team and that his worth was at least a 1st and a blue chip prospect.

I responded that he is actually a negative asset for the next 4 years unless your team retains an insane amount of money.

You disagreed.

I then showed why he is a negative asset, and you come back with:

Once again I repeat, when did I or anyone mention trading Price?

I was talking about Pacioretty and Weber in terms of prospect and picks. If you follow the discussion it's clear as day. Cherry pick one post all you want but that doesn't change that Pacioretty and Weber hold value in this league.

 

[DEVILS130]

Florida has so many good pieces. They just never seem to put it all together. I don't get it