the road to recovery - the bottom 5 Atlantic teams

[GodEmperor]

Agree with your post except for the bolded part. Montreal has been bottom-tier team with a healthy Price and weren't much better with Weber as well before his injury. Those two alone aren't enough to keep the Habs from plummeting in the standings. Other than that Montreal needs a GM with a vision to build for the future otherwise I can't see the Canadiens rebuild succesfully.

I think that the team is too good to be a real bottom team and thus be guaranteed top picks, I think you guys will float in the bottom 5-10 range with Price who can win games by himself and Weber who is still a capable #1D.

You guys actually remind me a lot of the Leafs a few years ago with Kessel and Phaneuf and a bunch of good (not great) young pieces, if you could just eat slight crow on Weber and Price, I think the team could easily build around (provided you get better pieces) the young core that is there, I don't think there are any "game breakers" there, but I don't exactly think Gardiner, Rielly, Kadri and JVR were those things either, but we got better pieces around them and now they all look great.

If I was GM, I'd take the best offer for Weber and Price and just go with it (maybe with some retention), then the team truly bottoms out and gets some great young assets with Price/Weber/Patches.

 

[joe dirte]

Yeah because before winning the lottery and drafting Marner/Nylander the Leafs were in much better shape than the present Habs, right?

If anything the Leafs demonstrated what a few strong drafts and a bit of luck can do...
Why do Leafs fans have to consistently talk down on other teams players to make themselves feel better?

Holy inferiority complex Batman!

no need to be negative. i just feel that buffalo, Florida, and Detroit have more positive things going for them. I can see them achieving a meaningful turnaround much sooner. like next year for Florida, 2 or 3 years for buffalo, 3 or 4 for Detroit. I think the other teams need more work than these teams.

 

[CauZuki]

no need to be negative. i just feel that buffalo, Florida, and Detroit have more positive things going for them. I can see them achieving a meaningful turnaround much sooner. like next year for Florida, 2 or 3 years for buffalo, 3 or 4 for Detroit. I think the other teams need more work than these teams.

What does Detroit have that makes them more future ready than Montreal ? I am just trying to understand the logic.

 

[RainingRats]

Florida isn't far off. If Tallon didn't screw up the expansion draft, we'd be a playoff team right now.

We need a top six forward or two ( difficult to acquire), improvement to bottom 6 (not hard to improve), and a top 4 d-man(difficult to acquire) and we should be a legit playoff team.

Borgstrom will fill one of the top 6 winger roles next year. Who the other guy is tbd. Top 4 d-man is a mystery, maybe Tallon trades our first round pick to fill that hole or the forward hole.

 

[GodEmperor]

Yeah because before winning the lottery and drafting Marner/Nylander the Leafs were in much better shape than the present Habs, right?

If anything the Leafs demonstrated what a few strong drafts and a bit of luck can do...
Why do Leafs fans have to consistently talk down on other teams players to make themselves feel better?

Holy inferiority complex Batman!

You need luck to win, you think the Pens drafting two generational players one of them being a f***ing 2nd overall pick (not common you get generational at that pick) wasn't "lucky?"

Besides, the Leafs have had among some of the worst luck in the NHL in the past 50 years, so it was bound to go their way eventually.

His point still stands though, you're not gonna build a championship team around Drouin, Galchy or the other young players there who aren't even on that level yet, you need top end talent and Montreal lacks it right now.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

What does Detroit have that makes them more future ready than Montreal ? I am just trying to understand the logic.

Larkin is a better center than anyone in Montreal's system. Mantha is also better than anyone Montreal has in that age range

 

[King In The North]

Is Drouin no longer viewed as a top 6 C by management?

 

[CauZuki]

You need luck to win, you think the Pens drafting two generational players one of them being a ****ing 2nd overall pick (not common you get generational at that pick) wasn't "lucky?"

Besides, the Leafs have had among some of the worst luck in the NHL in the past 50 years, so it was bound to go their way eventually.

His point still stands though, you're not gonna build a championship team around Drouin, Galchy or the other young players there who aren't even on that level yet, you need top end talent and Montreal lacks it right now.

You can't dismiss 3rd overall picks like they are nothing , they are excellent pieces to build with but I agree Habs are still missing 2-3 elite pieces before they can become competitive again.
Hockey requires the right mix of team chemistry , talent and luck.

Pens are unique situation(imo) and the rest of the cup winners were able to draft elite Cs beyond 1st overall (Kopitar/Doughty , Bergeron/Marchand/Krejci are good examples). In todays NHL you can't compare to the Chicago and Pittsburgh teams , these scenarios are even less likely to occur in the current climate. Multiple teams drafting very solid pieces in the first round and it seems that drafting/professional development + strong management can really make a huge difference and this is where the Habs are lacking.

 

[joe dirte]

What does Detroit have that makes them more future ready than Montreal ? I am just trying to understand the logic.

I think think their youth are pretty close. but Larkin and mantha are probably more impact youth than anything Montreal has. drouin comes close I guess. I think theyve also got a headstart on building a prospect base. they had like 15 picks this past year. and quite a few in the upcoming draft too I believe. basically I think they've already fully embraced a rebuild and started it.

I think the bigger separation is that Detroit doesn't have any huge immovable contract issues. like weber is.

and I also have a lot more faith in their management team.

 

[1specter]

Detroit is in a good place where if they play their cards right with smart moves they can get better quickly. They remind me of where the Leafs were in 2014 or so.

Montreal is f***ed. Ottawa is a gong show.

Buffalo has talent but they can't seem to figure out how to maintain any kind of structure. Also need a goalie and better D.

Florida has some nice pieces but need to clean up some big holes. Also seem to have impatient owners and managers who keep making poor, shortsighted decisions.

 

[LeafGrief]

Florida actually has a road towards competitiveness. Some good young centres in Barkov (who is elite) and Trochek (who is very good) and a defensive cornerstone in Ekblad. They still need to sort out the rest of the defense and the goaltending, but they have some real key pieces in place. Granted, they seemed to have those pieces already in place and managed to botch it horrendously, but they still have the makings of a strong core. I see plenty of reasons for Panthers fans to be optimistic.

Detroit is blowing it up. Mantha and Larkin are good pieces, but they need a lottery win and a few more top tier draft hits before they have the bones of a competitive team. They need D, a #1C (I don't think Larkin can be a true #1, but will be a great #2) and a goalie.

I think Ottawa has the best NHL squad of the bunch right now. If they can re-sign Karlsson and he can regain his form, that gives them the best defenseman in the league and they have some quality pieces up front in Duchene, Hoffman, Stone, and Brassard. They have some decent pieces in the pipeline and Chabot has upside, so I think they can stabilize and be a decent team. If they lose Karlsson, they should just blow it up, but they have plenty of assets to jump start a rebuild.

Buffalo has Jack Eichel and a whole lot of nothing. That blueline is terrible and their forwards are awful outside of ROR and Kane, who is on his way out. Having Mittelstadt in the pipeline is nice, but they need a whole heck of a lot more talent to be competitive. They should probably jettison most of whatever core they currently have, just to break up the losing culture. Rough, rough shape imo.

Then there is Montreal, who have two of the most ridiculous contracts in the league in Price and Weber. They're both great players but the entire rest of that roster is bad from top to bottom. Very few actual top 6 forwards and probably only one more top4 D in Petry. They've also got a bottom 5 prospect pool in the league. Two overpaid allstars is going to prevent them from drafting as high as they could over the next few years as the team slowly implodes. Not to mention one of the leagues' worst GM's, the Habs strike me as a slow-burning tire fire. Sure, they could win the Dahlin lottery and sign Tavares to be competitive next year, but so could every other non-playoff team. The Habs need a lot of luck or some very shrewd moves to improve their position.

 

[CauZuki]

I think think their youth are pretty close. but Larkin and mantha are probably more impact youth than anything Montreal has. drouin comes close I guess. I think theyve also got a headstart on building a prospect base. they had like 15 picks this past year. and quite a few in the upcoming draft too I believe. basically I think they've already fully embraced a rebuild and started it.

I think the bigger separation is that Detroit doesn't have any huge immovable contract issues. like weber is.

and I also have a lot more faith in their management team.

Galchenyuk has outproduced both Larkin and Mantha (at the same age) by a fair amount , so I don't see how you can say that.

So if I understand correctly, if Habs today declared themselves in rebuild mode , they would all of a sudden be in better shape than Detroit?

Is that the criteria established in this thread?

 

[habsterr]

The young players on the Habs suck mostly replaceable wingers and bottom six forwards. Need to draft a #1 C and a #1 D otherwise team will be stuck 20-25 range in the NHL.

 

[cgf]

Cleverly hidden “Leafs are a top 6 team in the league” thread

 

[CauZuki]

The young players on the Habs suck mostly replaceable wingers and bottom six forwards. Need to draft a #1 C and a #1 D otherwise team will be stuck 20-25 range in the NHL.

Yes agreed but Habs are at the bottom ahead of an excellent draft and have some vets with value.

New management + leveraging the teams assets could turn this team around over the next couple of years.
I wouldn't dismiss some of the younger guys so quickly, if anything Vegas is showing that in the right context players can succeed.

 

[joe dirte]

Galchenyuk has outproduced both Larkin and Mantha (at the same age) by a fair amount , so I don't see how you can say that.

So if I understand correctly, if Habs today declared themselves in rebuild mode , they would all of a sudden be in better shape than Detroit?

Is that the criteria established in this thread?

no. Detroit started on this a year ago. theyve established a clear direction. they're already working on it.

and you've ignored the contract issues and management issues Montreal has.

 

[CauZuki]

no. Detroit started on this a year ago. theyve established a clear direction. they're already working on it.

and you've ignored the contract issues and management issues Montreal has.

Weber is easily tradeable and so is Pacioretty , you can devalue assets all you want but that doesn't imply the Habs are in some kind of dire situation. Is Price being overpaid by 1.5M handicapping this team?

At the bare minimum we are looking at a near blue chip prospect and a 1st for each.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Weber is easily tradeable and so is Pacioretty , you can devalue assets all you want but that doesn't imply the Habs are in some kind of dire situation. Is Price being overpaid by 1.5M handicapping this team?

At the bare minimum we are looking at a near blue chip prospect and a 1st for each.

I don't think Weber is easy to trade with that contract. Max has a fine contract but he's not that valuable of a player unfortunately. even many Habs fans don't like him

 

[Razz]

I don't think the Atlantic teams are that bad except for 1. It seems to be one of those years where nothing went well for most of them.

Ottawa has a lot of nice young pieces, I expect they'll be fine next year. They always seem to alternate between bad and good years. Florida made some huge mistakes with the expansion draft but I don't think you can count them out. Detroit will take time but they are building through the draft. I don't think they'll be a basement team for an extended period of time. Buffalo has a great young core but lacks a winning culture, management changes should help immensely there. Montreal is the only team that has a questionable future. Many bad contracts and no prospects. They have a long way to go. Price can cover a lot of it up with a great season next year, but only to a point.

 

[nobody]

IMO Florida is in the best position for a resurgence. They just need a couple of pieces. They have by far the best core in place right now of any these 5 teams.

 

[CauZuki]

Detroit is in a good place where if they play their cards right with smart moves they can get better quickly. They remind me of where the Leafs were in 2014 or so.

Montreal is ****ed. Ottawa is a gong show.

Buffalo has talent but they can't seem to figure out how to maintain any kind of structure. Also need a goalie and better D.

Florida has some nice pieces but need to clean up some big holes. Also seem to have impatient owners and managers who keep making poor, shortsighted decisions.

Care to provide some logical behind Montreal vs Detroit ,genuinely curious.

 

[CauZuki]

I don't think Weber is easy to trade with that contract. Max has a fine contract but he's not that valuable of a player unfortunately. even many Habs fans don't like him

Once again a statement that has no bearing of fact and more of made up fiction...

Everybody in Montreal is underachieving this year and just a reminder (over the last 5 years):

In regards to Weber , last I checked a top 2D is still worth 6-8M on a case by case basis , so even if Habs have to retain a little (which they easily can with the cap space) he's easily worth a very good prospect and a 1st.

You can't dismiss Habs prospect/young players that are doing well (or have real potential) and at the same time say their elite vets have no value without providing any kind of proof at all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Montreal is dangerously close to being stuck in the 20-30 range. That Price contract is going to restrict their moves for a few years until the cap rises enough to adjust

 

[Razz]

Once again a statement that has no bearing of fact and more of made up fiction...

Everybody in Montreal is underachieving this year and just a reminder (over the last 5 years):

This post reminds me so much of the Kessel days. Leaf fans constantly posting charts of Phil's dominance over the years proving he's a top player. Of course they are right, but Kessel couldn't carry a team. If all you ask of him is to put up numbers and nothing else, a hell of a player.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

I don't think Weber is easy to trade with that contract. Max has a fine contract but he's not that valuable of a player unfortunately. even many Habs fans don't like him

I totally agree about Weber and Price being near untradeable without serious cap retention by the Habs but the Pacioretty situation, to me anyways is more complex.

A lot of Habs fans are unsatisfied with Pacioretty due to consistency issues lack of physicality but that anger is really more about the team. The team has no balance, everyone is playing out of position - out of their depth or a role they can accomplish.

Id like to see him play on a real team i.e. Pitt where he could just fit into a scoring role. He's been on a team with no know top scoring line now going on 6 years.

My biggest suspicion re Max is that he doesn't really push himself in the off-season and the Habs have been ok with his slow starts due to his contract - just my own personal suspicion there tho