The Pittsburgher Thread: The Bush Era Begins

[ziggyjoe212]

Yea how has running the wheels off worked for TOmlin in the past?
Dude just doesn't learn and likely never will

Not sure what you're trying to say. The Steelers have had a pro bowl RB for the past 5-6 years.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Not sure what you're trying to say. The Steelers have had a pro bowl RB for the past 5-6 years.

And how many yeas has that Pro Bowl RB been available for the playoffs at 100%?

Tomlin has always run his RB's into the dust with no viable backup plan.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yea how has running the wheels off worked for TOmlin in the past?
Dude just doesn't learn and likely never will

Since I’ve followed the NFL as a kid, coaches have routinely fed their feature backs 300-400 touches a season.

Bettis was a 300 touch guy that had some seasons of 340 and 370 touches, all the greats from Payton to B Sanders and E Smith, Tomlinson on down were 300-350 touch guys.

I just listed how the stars of today are still carrying similar work loads. Nothing has changed in that regard and Tomlin isn’t some maverick coach with his mindset to feed his feature back.

Not sure how this myth arose that Tomlin is doing something unorthodox with his feature back. He’s simply doing what coaches have always done and still continue to do.

His poor Xs and Os are responsible for his annual failings, not leaning on his feature back like countless other coaches have done.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Since I’ve followed the NFL as a kid, coaches have routinely fed their feature backs 300-400 touches a season.

Bettis was a 300 touch guy that had some seasons of 340 and 370 touches, all the greats from Payton to B Sanders and E Smith, Tomlinson on down were 300-350 touch guys.

I just listed how the stars of today are still carrying similar work loads. Nothing has changed in that regard and Tomlin isn’t some maverick coach with his mindset to feed his feature back.

Not sure how this myth arose that Tomlin is doing something unorthodox with his feature back. He’s simply doing what coaches have always done and still continue to do.

His poor Xs and Os are responsible for his annual failings, not leaning on his feature back like countless other coaches have done.

I'm not talking about the old school NFL. Those guys were a different era and it became apparent "huh, maybe if we limit our RB's touches, he'll have a longer career"

Today's NFL is RB by committee. Having a bell cow isn't the norm any longer. Keeping RB's fresh is the name of the game

My premise is that Tomlin (who has mostly had L Bell) didn't realize he should have a legit backup plan for a guy who was injured as often as he was. It took him 2 years of not having L Bell available in the playoffs to have D'angelo Williams in the mix. And when guys like Williams weren't on the roster he didn't give his backup RB any carries, so they'd get legit experience.

That's how you get Ben Tate fumbling in 2014 vs the Ravens and Josh Harris thrown into a playoff game. Tomlin doesn't plan for contingencies

 

[Shockmaster]

I'm not talking about the old school NFL. Those guys were a different era and it became apparent "huh, maybe if we limit our RB's touches, he'll have a longer career"

Today's NFL is RB by committee. Having a bell cow isn't the norm any longer. Keeping RB's fresh is the name of the game

My premise is that Tomlin (who has mostly had L Bell) didn't realize he should have a legit backup plan for a guy who was injured as often as he was. It took him 2 years of not having L Bell available in the playoffs to have D'angelo Williams in the mix. And when guys like Williams weren't on the roster he didn't give his backup RB any carries, so they'd get legit experience.

That's how you get Ben Tate fumbling in 2014 vs the Ravens and Josh Harris thrown into a playoff game. Tomlin doesn't plan for contingencies

Cutting Blount in 2014 turned out to be an incredibly knee-jerk move. He "left the field early" by about 10 seconds. If they wanted to deactivate him for the next game, fine. But cutting him with no legitimate #2 RB was just idiotic and ended up costing them in that playoff game against the Ravens.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Cutting Blount in 2014 turned out to be an incredibly knee-jerk move. He "left the field early" by about 10 seconds. If they wanted to deactivate him for the next game, fine. But cutting him with no legitimate #2 RB was just idiotic and ended up costing them in that playoff game against the Ravens.

I guess I don't have an issue with them cutting Blount if they thought he was upsetting the apple cart.
What I have an issue with is not getting the other guys meaningful carries after Blount was done.

Remember in the playoff game vs Miami when we were up big and they're still plowing Bell into the line? Bell ended up with 29 carries!!

D Williams had 2.

Funny how the following week Bell is gimped vs the Chiefs. Just moronic personnel management ....

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not talking about the old school NFL. Those guys were a different era and it became apparent "huh, maybe if we limit our RB's touches, he'll have a longer career"

Today's NFL is RB by committee. Having a bell cow isn't the norm any longer. Keeping RB's fresh is the name of the game

My premise is that Tomlin (who has mostly had L Bell) didn't realize he should have a legit backup plan for a guy who was injured as often as he was. It took him 2 years of not having L Bell available in the playoffs to have D'angelo Williams in the mix. And when guys like Williams weren't on the roster he didn't give his backup RB any carries, so they'd get legit experience.

That's how you get Ben Tate fumbling in 2014 vs the Ravens and Josh Harris thrown into a playoff game. Tomlin doesn't plan for contingencies

Running back by committee is what is has always been... when a team doesn’t have a feature back.

Every good back needs touches and to get into a rhythm. I’ve already shown that there are still plenty of feature backs getting over 300 touches a season.

A feature back should be able to handle 20-22 touches a game on avg.

If you have a feature Rb, you can’t afford as a coach, to sit your best runner down for 3-4 series a game. That’s suicide in a parity driven league.

Maybe you give him a blow for several snaps here and there, but that’s it. I get managing touches in a blowout and such, but beyond that I can’t see a sound argument for keeping your best runner off the field.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Running back by committee is what is has always been... when a team doesn’t have a feature back.

Every good back needs touches and to get into a rhythm. I’ve already shown that there are still plenty of feature backs getting over 300 touches a season.

A feature back should be able to handle 20-22 touches a game on avg.

If you have a feature Rb, you can’t afford as a coach, to sit your best runner down for 3-4 series a game. That’s suicide in a parity driven league.

Maybe you give him a blow for several snaps here and there, but that’s it. I get managing touches in a blowout and such, but beyond that I can’t see a sound argument for keeping your best runner off the field.

You're missing my premise- Tomlin doesn't plan for contingencies. See my post above about having to play non experienced RB's in the playoffs

 

[ziggyjoe212]

And how many yeas has that Pro Bowl RB been available for the playoffs at 100%?

Tomlin has always run his RB's into the dust with no viable backup plan.

DeAngelo Williams was a great backup for several years. Jaylen Samuels killed it last year, especially in his start vs the Patriots.

Our lack of depth killed us in 2016 in the playoffs when Ben Tate had to be our starter. Can't remember it being an issue at any other point in the last 6 years.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You're missing my premise- Tomlin doesn't plan for contingencies. See my post above about having to play non experienced RB's in the playoffs

I think he’s been doing a good job of trying to fill the backup position. He had brought in Blount but the guy was a douche, he then brought in Williams who was an an ace backup, then he drafted JC, then Samuels and now Snell.

Blount was a good backup until he got pissed he wasn’t getting the ball more and conspired with the Hoodie to get to NE. Not Tomlin’s fault he was an asshole about himself.

Williams was a beast.

JC has turned into a feature back.

Samuels had a huge game agt NE last season when his number was called.

I’m all for pointing out Tomlin’s issues (and they are many) but I’m not getting this criticism at all.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

DeAngelo Williams was a great backup for several years. Jaylen Samuels killed it last year, especially in his start vs the Patriots.

Our lack of depth killed us in 2016 in the playoffs when Ben Tate had to be our starter. Can't remember it being an issue at any other point in the last 6 years.

How many carries did Samuels get prior to Connor going down with injury. Hmmm...oh wait here's another RB under TOmlin's regime who got a buttload of carries and is subsequently injured. Connor previously had been oft-injured in college and his rookie year was cut short with injury. So let's give him all the carries to see how long until he breaks

DWill was brought in only after Bell went down multiple times and not available for the playoffs. Yet in the aforementioned game in Miami where the score was never in doubt we run Bell 29! times to DWill 2. In what world does that make sense?

Point is, Tomlin runs the wheels off when he could easily be spreading out the workload and his starting RB's get injured due to the workload. How many times does history have to repeat itself before he gets the memo?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I think he’s been doing a good job of trying to fill the backup position. He had brought in Blount but the guy was a *****e, he then brought in Williams who was an an ace backup, then he drafted JC, then Samuels and now Snell.

Blount was a good backup until he got pissed he wasn’t getting the ball more and conspired with the Hoodie to get to NE. Not Tomlin’s fault he was an ******* about himself.

Williams was a beast.

JC has turned into a feature back.

Samuels had a huge game agt NE last season when his number was called.

I’m all for pointing out Tomlin’s issues (and they are many) but I’m not getting this criticism at all.

When were those capable backups utilized when the starter was available? Not often- that's the criticism

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

When were those capable backups utilized when the starter was available? Not often- that's the criticism

I already explained that man.

It’s easy to sit back and say Tomlin should run these other backs more when you aren’t the coach.

Most games are too close to take your feature back out for several series a game. It’s just not logical when every series is so important.

Maybe if the Steelers got more blowouts I could see it, but they have a very bad habit of letting teams come back on them under Tomlin.

However, that’s another discussion entirely.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Its funny seeing Browns players(Mayfield , OBJ) already acting like they won a Superbowl. Both bashing the Giants. Mayfield " Giants taking Daniel Jones blows my mind".

They will get their dose of reality during the season as usual.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I already explained that man.

It’s easy to sit back and say Tomlin should run these other backs more when you aren’t the coach.

Most games are too close to take your feature back out for several series a game. It’s just not logical when every series is so important.

Maybe if the Steelers got more blowouts I could see it, but they have a very bad habit of letting teams come back on them under Tomlin.

However, that’s another discussion entirely.

You're misinterpreting. I'm not asking for L Bell to be pulled for "several series a game". I'm asking for more of a rotation, a like a 85-15% split DURING a series. Tomlin has never ever done this and has gone into the playoffs without his week 1 starter at RB for multiple seasons

Heck they had Dwill, one of the more accomplished backs on this roster available and he barely got any snaps when Bell was available. And AGAIN (for the 3rd year) Bell was less than 100% for a playoff game

This is not a coincidence with these RB injuries

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

You're misinterpreting. I'm not asking for L Bell to be pulled for "several series a game". I'm asking for more of a rotation, a like a 85-15% split DURING a series. Tomlin has never ever done this and has gone into the playoffs without his week 1 starter at RB for multiple seasons

Heck they had Dwill, one of the more accomplished backs on this roster available and he barely got any snaps when Bell was available. And AGAIN (for the 3rd year) Bell was less than 100% for a playoff game

This is not a coincidence with these RB injuries

I agree with that. But I do think Tomlin has learned from this. We started to see this last year.

Back then he would keep Bell in even when game was out of reach. And remember the Chiefs win in the playoffs? Didnt Bell get close to 40 carries while DWill was barely used? Then Bell leaves in first quarter against NE in AFCC.

Horrible usage with RBs then. But last year did show he learned from that

 

[JTG]

If a team has a feature back, they will run his wheels off. The Steelers aren’t the only org that does that. Gurley had almost 300 touches in only 14 games, Elliott had almost 400, Barkley had over 350, Johnson 300, etc.

Steelers just signed two very respectable FA... and you need cap room to sign the biggest names, which is hard to do when you org is so good at drafting talent and retaining that talent.

Big trades like say, trading into the top ten to grab an elite ILB talent? Or trading for a beastly TE that just came off a career season?

This org only real flaw is showing Tomlin so much loyalty, but that mindset has helped make them such a stable and admired franchise for almost 50 years now. Unfortunately it’s a fatal flaw, I’ll give you that...

Tomlin enabled Brown and that helped embarrass this proud franchise, but sadly I’m pretty sure Brown would have gotten away with his behavior anywhere else, save NE.

There is something to what you're saying regarding a feature back. It's almost as if they give that guy the ball regardless of game situation, the playoffs, or his career longevity. When you have talent on your offense, there is zero reason for a guy to touch the ball 400 times. Spread around the wealth. Keep everyone healthy and engaged.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You're misinterpreting. I'm not asking for L Bell to be pulled for "several series a game". I'm asking for more of a rotation, a like a 85-15% split DURING a series. Tomlin has never ever done this and has gone into the playoffs without his week 1 starter at RB for multiple seasons

Heck they had Dwill, one of the more accomplished backs on this roster available and he barely got any snaps when Bell was available. And AGAIN (for the 3rd year) Bell was less than 100% for a playoff game

This is not a coincidence with these RB injuries

A coach isn’t going to pull his starter for a couple plays during a series throughout the whole game. It’s not realistic.

It would be incumbent on JC to pull himself when he’s tired, but these guys want the ball and want to find their rhythm.

You are saying Bell was over worked, yet when he didn’t get the ball he whined:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...e-rushing-following-loss-jacksonville-jaguars

That wasn’t the only time he lobbied for more work when he felt he wasn’t getting the ball enough.

Every good back wants 20-25 touches a game and it’s difficult to let them find their groove by taking away touches during a series or even having them sit out a couple series.

It just doesn’t work giving away more than 5-6 touches a game to the backup.

Now if a guy starts getting 375-400+ touches a season, that’s a problem, but that just tells me the offense isn’t being balanced enough.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

A coach isn’t going to pull his starter for a couple plays during a series throughout the whole game. It’s not realistic.

It would be incumbent on JC to pull himself when he’s tired, but these guys want the ball and want to find their rhythm.

You are saying Bell was over worked, yet when he didn’t get the ball he whined:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...e-rushing-following-loss-jacksonville-jaguars

That wasn’t the only time he lobbied for more work when he felt he wasn’t getting the ball enough.

Every good back wants 20-25 touches a game and it’s difficult to let them find their groove by taking away touches during a series or even having them sit out a couple series.

It just doesn’t work giving away more than 5-6 touches a game to the backup.

Now if a guy starts getting 375-400+ touches a season, that’s a problem, but that just tells me the offense isn’t being balanced enough.

Agree with this as well. Conner was much better when he reached 20+ carries as opposed to 10-15. The more he got the more he started finding his rhythm and adding those big runs.

Only thing that was a prob back then was when Tomlin kept Bell in late in games that we had won. And then he'd end up missing the playoffs. Its ok to spread it around some. IF you have capable backups. DWill as that. And Samuels is now. With our lack of depth at TE I would like to see some formations with both Conner and Samuels out there at times.

We have a ton of talent on offense(some havent proved it yet but you can see the potential) and its up to Ben/Fichtner to utilize it all

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

A coach isn’t going to pull his starter for a couple plays during a series throughout the whole game. It’s not realistic.

It would be incumbent on JC to pull himself when he’s tired, but these guys want the ball and want to find their rhythm.

You are saying Bell was over worked, yet when he didn’t get the ball he whined:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...e-rushing-following-loss-jacksonville-jaguars

That wasn’t the only time he lobbied for more work when he felt he wasn’t getting the ball enough.

Every good back wants 20-25 touches a game and it’s difficult to let them find their groove by taking away touches during a series or even having them sit out a couple series.

It just doesn’t work giving away more than 5-6 touches a game to the backup.

Now if a guy starts getting 375-400+ touches a season, that’s a problem, but that just tells me the offense isn’t being balanced enough.

Belicheck routinely rotates his RB's, but we surely don't want to be anything like the Patriots, right?

I don't care what a single player wants or pouts or whatever. The coach needs to do what is best for the team or else you get babies like Bell/Brown and their antics

So yes back to Connor...did he not miss significant time and did he not get almost 100% of the touches to start last season? Again there's a clear pattern here of Tomlin feeding his RB's and them getting injured. I'm flabbergasted that people aren't recognizing this

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Agree with this as well. Conner was much better when he reached 20+ carries as opposed to 10-15. The more he got the more he started finding his rhythm and adding those big runs.

Only thing that was a prob back then was when Tomlin kept Bell in late in games that we had won. And then he'd end up missing the playoffs. Its ok to spread it around some. IF you have capable backups. DWill as that. And Samuels is now. With our lack of depth at TE I would like to see some formations with both Conner and Samuels out there at times.

We have a ton of talent on offense(some havent proved it yet but you can see the potential) and its up to Ben/Fichtner to utilize it all

There are too many weapons for JC to be a 400 touch guy, so I’m not worried about it.

He should be around 300-340 touches which is right around 21 touches at the high end.

That leaves less than 100 touches for the backups and how Tomlin spreads those out, who knows. But it doesn’t take a math whiz to figure out that isn’t much touches over the course of a season.

Belicheck routinely rotates his RB's, but we surely don't want to be anything like the Patriots, right?

I don't care what a single player wants or pouts or whatever. The coach needs to do what is best for the team or else you get babies like Bell/Brown and their antics

So yes back to Connor...did he not miss significant time and did he not get almost 100% of the touches to start last season? Again there's a clear pattern here of Tomlin feeding his RB's and them getting injured. I'm flabbergasted that people aren't recognizing this

Pats haven’t had a feature back in a decade. Brady is why they win, not rb by committee.

Once again what you are suggesting isn’t realistic. The math is pretty simple.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Pats haven’t had a feature back in a decade. Brady is why they win, not rb by committee.

Once again what you are suggesting isn’t realistic. The math is pretty simple.

Do you see how those statements aren't congruent?
"The Patriots win by doing X
Doing X isn't realistic bc of math"

I'd argue the Steelers could win because of Ben, but they choose to do the feature RB nonsense.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The Patriots win because of their coach, not who lines up behind the center.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Do you see how those statements aren't congruent?
"The Patriots win by doing X
Doing X isn't realistic bc of math"

I'd argue the Steelers could win because of Ben, but they choose to do the feature RB nonsense.

The Pats have a formula that no team can replicate... greatest coach of all time paired with the greatest QB of all time.

Pointing to them as some kind of model that can be followed is silly.

And the math has nothing to do with the Pats, so no idea why you are intertwining them.

The math I’m referring to is that a feature back needs a minimum of 20+ touches a game to get into a grove and this has been proven time and again for years on end.

That once again makes the math quite simple as I said, because it leaves at best in this offense maybe, if I’m being generous, 100 touches for the other backs.

That gives you, as I alluded to earlier, 5-6 touches a game for your backups.

If you are consistently giving JC 15-17 touches a game, it’s going to have a negative effect in your W-L column.

 

[SouthGeorge]

They also cheat a lot and have the refs/leagues backing. When have they ever been screwed over by the refs? I'll wait. Refs cost the Steelers 2-3 games last year alone. It's all because of this stupid narrative that they created that Belicheat is so great so his players would never commit that penalty. The refs and media eat it up. College football did the same thing with Saban. Great coaches don't get me wrong but they got the refs in their pocket. You have to beat them both.

Josh Gordon should be banned from the league by now but no no he has Belicheat/Cheatriots backing. Where was that same standard for Bryant? So much hypocrisy and pick and choosing when to apply rules in this tainted league.