The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

[Shockmaster]

So tell us what you think is silly and why.

Don't hide behind childish statements about what happened before the time we're discussing.

I already explained it in previous posts. Go back and read it or don't. You hide behind the fact that you don't want to discuss anything before 2009, because it would render your argument moot.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I already explained it in previous posts. Go back and read it or don't. You hide behind the fact that you don't want to discuss anything before 2009, because it would render your argument moot.

This whole discussion is about how things changed after the Cup win and has led to 4 straight bad POs. If anything the success this team had before the timeline of this thread would help my argument.

KIRK has made a few posts over the past few days showing how things have changed, especially in regard to player management, since DB took over full time.

 

[KIRK]

Embarrassing is probably the wrong word to describe the playoff performances of the Pens over the last four seasons but "good" also isn't a way to describe those performances. Embarrassing is a matter of perspective so I won't phrase it that way, I'll just say that the Pens have massively underachieved in the last four seasons in more ways then one.

Here's one indisputable fact to me. The Pens have the two best hockey players in the world (and have had them for a long time now and look to continue to have them for a very long time) at their dispersal with a quality supporting cast for the most part and the financial assets and reputation to make deals as they please. This automatically puts them ahead of any other team on paper to me. No other team can make a boast like that. So one Cup and four straight seasons of not getting to the SCF is underachieving enough to the point where some could argue it to be embarrassing.

So there's the first thing going against them. The other is the way the team has gone out throughout the last few seasons. In 09-10 they lost in the 2nd round in 7 games to an 8th seed that got destroyed by the Flyers who, in turn, lost to the Blackhawks. In 2010-2011 they don't even get past the first round although, granted, it's to a team that did well in the playoffs and almost got to the SCF. In 2011-2012 they humiliate themselves and lose badly to the Flyers in the 1st round (who got destroyed by the Devs the round after). In 2012-2013 they finally approach living up to their playoff potential in terms of playoff advancement but then they get absolutely destroyed in a sweep against the Bruins in the 3rd round which was the first legitimate contender they faced in those playoffs. So that doesn't look good on them.

I really don't see how you can rationalize a team with a base of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Neal losing in the 1st round two of the three past seasons and getting absolutely destroyed in a sweep to the first contender they faced in the third season. That's all without even talking about the fact they haven't sniffed the SCF since they won it all five seasons ago. Now, to me, that's unacceptable if I'm a Pens fan and although I wouldn't call it embarrassing to get destroyed by a contender or have a couple down playoffs it's very underachieving for this team.

The third and final thing people have to admit is the bad management from the GM level down to the coaching level. Obviously the coach is at least partly responsible for the playoff failures since the Cup win. However, Shero and possibly Bylsma have a tendency to stick to players and have loyalty to players for too long when they don't deserve it. Mainly Fleury though you could argue guys like Glass as well. Coming from a Flyers fan, for a team like the Flyers or Pens finding a quality starting goalie that you can count on is tough, really tough. Possibly the toughest thing in hockey if you're a team like the Flyers or Pens. So going into the season with no real backup plan to Fleury is a really not so good idea. Beyond that, there's the fact that neither the goaltending position nor winger position nor 4th line has really been properly faced by management over a 5 year length.

So, you guys can argue all you want, but coming from an unbiased outside fan I really don't see how you can argue that the Pens haven't underachieved. Embarrassing is a matter of perspective and you can bicker and nitpick with it, but it's pretty undeniable they should be doing better then this. Both in terms of problems that should have been solved by now and in terms of even potential for the current roster.

Really good stuff. The bolded part, IMO, is the money quote.

 

[KIRK]

I already explained it in previous posts. Go back and read it or don't. You hide behind the fact that you don't want to discuss anything before 2009, because it would render your argument moot.

This whole discussion is about how things changed after the Cup win and has led to 4 straight bad POs. If anything the success this team had before the timeline of this thread would help my argument.

KIRK has made a few posts over the past few days showing how things have changed, especially in regard to player management, since DB took over full time.

Leaving what I wrote about player management out of it, you are correct that this specific discussion is about the last four years (ergo, the title RRP chose for this thread).

And, you're right that what has happened in the last four years is more, not less, disappointing (and indicative of underachievement) in light of the Pens cup win in 2009.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Really good stuff. The bolded part, IMO, is the money quote.

Why, thank you.

I mean if you want to shorten my post it just goes down to that one sentence. The thread title uses a specific, negative word (embarrassment) to twist things around a bit and that probably automatically got the thread off to a bad start. The bottom line though is that arguing about whether it's all an embarrassment or not is nitpicking for the purpose of nitpicking. The vast majority of fans, including knowledgeable Pens fans (not the fairweather type fans that every team has) will say that the Pens have underachieved (though most of those fans would use a much less civil word then underachieve) and that in itself is the problem. I really don't see how there's much to discuss in reality.

 

[KIRK]

Why, thank you.

I mean if you want to shorten my post it just goes down to that one sentence. The thread title uses a specific, negative word (embarrassment) to twist things around a bit and that probably automatically got the thread off to a bad start. The bottom line though is that arguing about whether it's all an embarrassment or not is nitpicking for the purpose of nitpicking. The vast majority of fans, including knowledgeable Pens fans (not the fairweather type fans that every team has) will say that the Pens have underachieved (though most of those fans would use a much less civil word then underachieve) and that in itself is the problem. I really don't see how there's much to discuss in reality.

Who, why, and how make for some entertaining subject discussions, but RRP posed this as a what question . . . i.e., how does one interpret what happened in the last four playoffs. I suggested 'disappointment' yesterday, but I think your word 'underachievement' is a lot better.

In terms of series wins, the Pens are no worse than anyone but Boston and Chicago (and LA if you include teams that didn't make the playoffs the last four years).

In terms of what anyone would have called the reasonable expectations in June 2009, there's no way to construe the four years collectively as anything but underachieving.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Who, why, and how make for some entertaining subject discussions, but RRP posed this as a what question . . . i.e., how does one interpret what happened in the last four playoffs. I suggested 'disappointment' yesterday, but I think your word 'underachievement' is a lot better.

In terms of series wins, the Pens are no worse than anyone but Boston and Chicago (and LA if you include teams that didn't make the playoffs the last four years).

In terms of what anyone would have called the reasonable expectations in June 2009, there's no way to construe the four years collectively as anything but underachieving.

I know that's the way the TC is looking at things and, honestly, that's a really flawed way to look at it. Just looking it at sheer number of series wins doesn't take into account all the factors going into it. Such as having the two best players in the world, arguably the best team on paper outside of goal, not having financial limitations a la a team with an inside spending limit like St. Louis or Dallas or such (or, in other words, the Pens don't have financial difficulties). All three of those things give the Pens a better chance to win the Cup then anyone from the get-go. In reality, going into the season even every team is lumped into a different group of expectations. From expected bottom feeders, to fringe teams, to contenders and the Pens are annually considered a contender and not only that but a top contender. So, again in reality, the competition the Pens have isn't really 29 other teams. It's far less then that. Nobody expects Colorado or Buffalo to win the Cup or even a playoff series and teams like Colorado and Edmonton are like that annually.

I mean, if you look at it straight from a sheer numbers perspective and expand that to other areas of the game (like save percentage for goalies, wins, etc.) then there's no analysis to be done. There's impressive numbers, average numbers, and poor numbers. If you don't add the context and the factors that go into it then there shouldn't be any discussion to begin with.

 

[KIRK]

I know that's the way the TC is looking at things and, honestly, that's a really flawed way to look at it. Just looking it at sheer number of series wins doesn't take into account all the factors going into it. Such as having the two best players in the world, arguably the best team on paper outside of goal, not having financial limitations a la a team with an inside spending limit like St. Louis or Dallas or such (or, in other words, the Pens don't have financial difficulties). All three of those things give the Pens a better chance to win the Cup then anyone from the get-go. In reality, going into the season even every team is lumped into a different group of expectations. From expected bottom feeders, to fringe teams, to contenders and the Pens are annually considered a contender and not only that but a top contender. So, again in reality, the competition the Pens have isn't really 29 other teams. It's far less then that. Nobody expects Colorado or Buffalo to win the Cup or even a playoff series and teams like Colorado and Edmonton are like that annually.

I mean, if you look at it straight from a sheer numbers perspective and expand that to other areas of the game (like save percentage for goalies, wins, etc.) then there's no analysis to be done. There's impressive numbers, average numbers, and poor numbers. If you don't add the context and the factors that go into it then there shouldn't be any discussion to begin with.

Perhaps you don't get the rules of this thread. You're only allowed to add context to support that argument that it's not bad. You're not allowed to add context to make the case for underachievement.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

1. On one level, I have a problem with a debate of 'embarrassment' versus 'disappointment', not because the distinction isn't important but because it's used as a device not to address the actual question. I similarly see as problematic efforts from others to cite injuries or anything else, as if that was the difference between what the Pens accomplished and what the Pens should've accomplished.

...

Exactly. My whole argument from the beginning was that RRP's method and statistics were a poor measure for his argument and could potentially be used to argue the other side. Never the less I've repeatedly been mischaracterized and had to restate that I don't believe the word embarrassment is accurate. And then, low and behold, I'm the one arguing in bad faith and using strawmen.

You have to love this place

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Embarrassing is probably the wrong word to describe the playoff performances of the Pens over the last four seasons but "good" also isn't a way to describe those performances. Embarrassing is a matter of perspective so I won't phrase it that way, I'll just say that the Pens have massively underachieved in the last four seasons in more ways then one.

....(deleted to save space)...

So, you guys can argue all you want, but coming from an unbiased outside fan I really don't see how you can argue that the Pens haven't underachieved. Embarrassing is a matter of perspective and you can bicker and nitpick with it, but it's pretty undeniable they should be doing better then this. Both in terms of problems that should have been solved by now and in terms of even potential for the current roster.

Good post. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with us.

 

[Tender Rip]

Yap yap yap .

On balance, just looking at results and accomplishments, obviously we are not an embarrassment since 09, far less if one includes Bylsma's first season or the seasons immediately prior. We're clearly one of the league's power houses.

It is hard to argue that we have had pretty embarrassing EXITS from the playoffs though, and past 09 we have only beaten teams we were fundamentally superior to at pretty much any conceivable level. When we've been tested by potent teams, we've lost. Not only have we lost, we have unraveled.

RRP is doing a good job showing how one can only feel major disappointment if putting the Pens on a pedestal, because few other teams have done any better. Sure, that is true.
However, to some of us it is obvious that we should be on that pedestal, because we simply have a better foundation for success than any other team with the assets we've been lucky enough to be granted. Not just a **** load of high picks, but also picks largely panning out to be GREAT players, while having the financial and brand name clout to add to those guys. In a nutshell, when you have Sid and Malkin in their primes, you are not to be judged like other teams, most certainly not when there is as much quality support as we have.

Ultimately, for me it is about regret. Regret that we have a head coach who customarily gets outcoached in the playoffs and a number 1 goalie who has flamed out when it mattered more consistently than any goalie should be allowed to.
Both those guys are still here, and it is all that separates us from being no-brainer bookmaker first choice for cup projections.
The head ache is that seemingly every off season, it is clear as day what our main issues are (and they are few compared to most any other team), and they are hardly ever addressed. Then we see those exact issues come back to haunt us when it counts.

There are no guarantees that another coach or goalie would have given us more cups, so one can always go back to RRPs stance and say it is fair, because them result stats are just difficult to argue.

Then again, those do not mean Bylsma is not a stubborn ****ing idiot blessed with a massive arsenal that will cover most his weaknesses on most nights. Smart dollars say we enter the playoffs this season being touted by most as the likely winner. I hope there are no more excuses if we don't get it done this season.
The risk of changing for the sake of change is there, but to me it would be worse accepting the risk/arguable reality of being held back for half a decade+ by a coach who lucked into a Cup when he was wet behind the ears.

 

[TheSniper26]

Yap yap yap .

On balance, just looking at results and accomplishments, obviously we are not an embarrassment since 09, far less if one includes Bylsma's first season or the seasons immediately prior. We're clearly one of the league's power houses.

It is hard to argue that we have had pretty embarrassing EXITS from the playoffs though, and past 09 we have only beaten teams we were fundamentally superior to at pretty much any conceivable level. When we've been tested by potent teams, we've lost. Not only have we lost, we have unraveled.

RRP is doing a good job showing how one can only feel major disappointment if putting the Pens on a pedestal, because few other teams have done any better. Sure, that is true.
However, to some of us it is obvious that we should be on that pedestal, because we simply have a better foundation for success than any other team with the assets we've been lucky enough to be granted. Not just a **** load of high picks, but also picks largely panning out to be GREAT players, while having the financial and brand name clout to add to those guys. In a nutshell, when you have Sid and Malkin in their primes, you are not to be judged like other teams, most certainly not when there is as much quality support as we have.

Ultimately, for me it is about regret. Regret that we have a head coach who customarily gets outcoached in the playoffs and a number 1 goalie who has flamed out when it mattered more consistently than any goalie should be allowed to.
Both those guys are still here, and it is all that separates us from being no-brainer bookmaker first choice for cup projections.
The head ache is that seemingly every off season, it is clear as day what our main issues are (and they are few compared to most any other team), and they are hardly ever addressed. Then we see those exact issues come back to haunt us when it counts.

There are no guarantees that another coach or goalie would have given us more cups, so one can always go back to RRPs stance and say it is fair, because them result stats are just difficult to argue.

Then again, those do not mean Bylsma is not a stubborn ****ing idiot blessed with a massive arsenal that will cover most his weaknesses on most nights. Smart dollars say we enter the playoffs this season being touted by most as the likely winner. I hope there are no more excuses if we don't get it done this season.
The risk of changing for the sake of change is there, but to me it would be worse accepting the risk/arguable reality of being held back for half a decade+ by a coach who lucked into a Cup when he was wet behind the ears.

I haven't had a chance to back-read through the last few pages and I doubt I will. I'm sure I can imagine how it went. But this is a great post. To me, the bit in bold cuts to the heart of the issue. There are some that view having a Sid/Geno core as a reason to hold the Pens to a higher standard, and some that disagree and hold the Pens to a standard comparable to the other top tier teams in the league. That's really the whole issue. I would consider myself in the latter group, but really, I can understand both sides.

Either way, nobody is saying that the last 4 years haven't been disappointing or that the team doesn't have problems. It's annoying that simply not complaining about every little thing gets characterized as an "all is well" attitude on here now.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I really don't see how there's much to discuss in reality.

Confirmation bias, much?

If you don't want to discuss it, because you don't think it's worth discussing, cool. But this is exactly what I mean about people arguing in bad faith. You don't want a discussion, you want an intellectual handjob that will tell you you're right. And so you don't engage the arguments of posters you disagree with and try to disprove them on their merits.

And if that's what you want, you'll get that here in spades. I think it's a shame really.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Either way, nobody is saying that the last 4 years haven't been disappointing or that the team doesn't have problems. It's annoying that simply not complaining about every little thing gets characterized as an "all is well" attitude on here now.

that sounds like something a whitewasher would say.

 

[Tender Rip]

Confirmation bias, much?

If you don't want to discuss it, because you don't think it's worth discussing, cool. But this is exactly what I mean about people arguing in bad faith. You don't want a discussion, you want an intellectual handjob that will tell you you're right. And so you don't engage the arguments of posters you disagree with and try to disprove them on their merits.

And if that's what you want, you'll get that here in spades. I think it's a shame really.

Pick one sentence to quote and ignore that his rather sober posts very much address the topic and affords both sides of it at least some consideration? It is certainly more intelligible stuff than most posts in this thread, and unlike your post above he actually discusses the topic.

Bad faith argument. Ad hominem even? Yes, but that would be on your part methinks. I think it is a shame really .

 

[KIRK]

Yap yap yap .

On balance, just looking at results and accomplishments, obviously we are not an embarrassment since 09, far less if one includes Bylsma's first season or the seasons immediately prior. We're clearly one of the league's power houses.

It is hard to argue that we have had pretty embarrassing EXITS from the playoffs though, and past 09 we have only beaten teams we were fundamentally superior to at pretty much any conceivable level. When we've been tested by potent teams, we've lost. Not only have we lost, we have unraveled.

RRP is doing a good job showing how one can only feel major disappointment if putting the Pens on a pedestal, because few other teams have done any better. Sure, that is true.
However, to some of us it is obvious that we should be on that pedestal, because we simply have a better foundation for success than any other team with the assets we've been lucky enough to be granted. Not just a **** load of high picks, but also picks largely panning out to be GREAT players, while having the financial and brand name clout to add to those guys. In a nutshell, when you have Sid and Malkin in their primes, you are not to be judged like other teams, most certainly not when there is as much quality support as we have.

Ultimately, for me it is about regret. Regret that we have a head coach who customarily gets outcoached in the playoffs and a number 1 goalie who has flamed out when it mattered more consistently than any goalie should be allowed to.
Both those guys are still here, and it is all that separates us from being no-brainer bookmaker first choice for cup projections.
The head ache is that seemingly every off season, it is clear as day what our main issues are (and they are few compared to most any other team), and they are hardly ever addressed. Then we see those exact issues come back to haunt us when it counts.

There are no guarantees that another coach or goalie would have given us more cups, so one can always go back to RRPs stance and say it is fair, because them result stats are just difficult to argue.

Then again, those do not mean Bylsma is not a stubborn ****ing idiot blessed with a massive arsenal that will cover most his weaknesses on most nights. Smart dollars say we enter the playoffs this season being touted by most as the likely winner. I hope there are no more excuses if we don't get it done this season.
The risk of changing for the sake of change is there, but to me it would be worse accepting the risk/arguable reality of being held back for half a decade+ by a coach who lucked into a Cup when he was wet behind the ears.

Pardon the intellectual handjob TR, but this is some pretty good stuff. When you think back to all of that promise in June 2009 and what's transpired in the four playoffs since, 'regret' might be the best choice of words yet.

I haven't had a chance to back-read through the last few pages and I doubt I will. I'm sure I can imagine how it went. But this is a great post. To me, the bit in bold cuts to the heart of the issue. There are some that view having a Sid/Geno core as a reason to hold the Pens to a higher standard, and some that disagree and hold the Pens to a standard comparable to the other top tier teams in the league. That's really the whole issue. I would consider myself in the latter group, but really, I can understand both sides.

Either way, nobody is saying that the last 4 years haven't been disappointing or that the team doesn't have problems. It's annoying that simply not complaining about every little thing gets characterized as an "all is well" attitude on here now.

Thank for that first paragraph. Now I get where you were coming from. Respectfully, I just can't have equal expectations for a four year sample for a Pens team with Sid and Geno just coming off a cup and say the Flyers or Rangers any more than I could view expectations for the Hawks and Sharks equally over the last three seasons (since the Hawks won their first cup). But, if one sees no difference in what should be viewed as the reasonable expectations for the top 8 or so teams in hockey, then the conclusion that you've reached is perfectly reasonable.

The second paragraph is a bit of a straw man again, but Ogrezilla needed his sustenance, so I understand.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The real problem is not what has happened since 2009.

The real problem is the fear about nothing at all changing and what is going to happen in 2013-14 and beyond.

Simple question. How many are confident in this team advancing even to the conference finals? Given the talent on this team that had them among the favorites everywhere else why is there that feeling of a likely early exit?

That is, and has been, the problem.

If the Pens could even admit what the issues have been and say that they are working on them I would feel better about this upcoming season. But instead it feels like the movie Groundhog Day.

 

[Shady Machine]

Confirmation bias, much?

If you don't want to discuss it, because you don't think it's worth discussing, cool. But this is exactly what I mean about people arguing in bad faith. You don't want a discussion, you want an intellectual handjob that will tell you you're right. And so you don't engage the arguments of posters you disagree with and try to disprove them on their merits.

And if that's what you want, you'll get that here in spades. I think it's a shame really.

Cherry pick one sentence from a very thorough and well thought out post, much?

 

[radapex]

also im not sure how someone can use fleury's horrific goaltending as a reason for why this team is not embarrassing.

if anything fleury's continued employment by this organization is shameful. a loser of epic proportions, yet he continues to be supported by the team, coach, and organization. the entire league knows he sucks and has known it for years. no other team would continually give this loser chance after chance to redeem himself.

everyday that goes by with fleury on this roster is embarrassing and shows that a championship isnt this organizations top priority.

Fleury was a non-factor in their playoff embarrassment last season which shows that, while he's been a problem, the Pens have some big issues otherwise.

Coupled with Fleury's issues, the Pens have two of the superstars developing a habit of failing to show up when it counts the most and a bottom six that couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

 

[Tender Rip]

Fleury was a non-factor in their playoff embarrassment last season which shows that, while he's been a problem, the Pens have some big issues otherwise.

Coupled with Fleury's issues, the Pens have two of the superstars developing a habit of failing to show up when it counts the most and a bottom six that couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Well.... Fleury was an utter embarrassment while he played in last seasons playoffs, and what ultimately killed us what something that has not happened any other year in the Sid/Malkin era: an ability to score goals entirely.

Now, I do think there were some issues there, much debated as they have been, but beyond any other issues there was the fact that we had just zero bounces for four games straight, and as much as I want to slate Bylsma, that **** wasn't normal. Yes we should have crashed the net harder; yes line combinations should have been different; no Bylsma didn't seem capable to change the momentum of damn near anything, but still.... 4 games and several OTs and NO bounces?
Mind, we could easily have lost while having a bit of luck also, after all we did get swept.
But Fleury doesn't become a non-problem for last seasons playoffs when once again sporting a below 0.900 save percentage and almost singlehandedly putting us at risk to lose round 1. We lost despite Vokoun being GREAT. We haven't ever tried losing despite great goal tending during this era.

 

[lastcupever75]

Which begs the question, are you embarrassed by our playoff exits in the other 3 years? Keep in mind we still employ said goalie...

Yes.
Mostly embarrassed by our goaltending.

Boston was a good team, but we should have been able to give them more of a challenge

 

[UnrealMachine]

Fleury was a non-factor in their playoff embarrassment last season which shows that, while he's been a problem, the Pens have some big issues otherwise.

Coupled with Fleury's issues, the Pens have two of the superstars developing a habit of failing to show up when it counts the most and a bottom six that couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

You don't consider sitting on the bench and eating $5M of cap space a problem for a team? His cap hit was almost equivalent to our entire 3rd line's combined cap hit.

 

[radapex]

You don't consider sitting on the bench and eating $5M of cap space a problem for a team? His cap hit was almost equivalent to our entire 3rd line's combined cap hit.

His cap hit didn't stop Shero from getting who he wanted, and he still had room to work with. As a technicality, there is no salary cap in the playoffs so Fleury was eating up exactly $0 of cap space by being benched.

At the end of the day, there was over $40-million worth of forwards who managed to put up 0 points in 4 games against Boston. The $5-million goalie sitting on the bench becomes moot provided that Vokoun gave them every opportunity to win that series and they couldn't even win a single game.

 

[UnrealMachine]

His cap hit didn't stop Shero from getting who he wanted, and he still had room to work with. As a technicality, there is no salary cap in the playoffs so Fleury was eating up exactly $0 of cap space by being benched.

At the end of the day, there was over $40-million worth of forwards who managed to put up 0 points in 4 games against Boston. The $5-million goalie sitting on the bench becomes moot provided that Vokoun gave them every opportunity to win that series and they couldn't even win a single game.

Other than the bolded section, I do generally agree with everything else you said. As for the bolded section, why go there? You know very well that the team you have after the trade deadline is the team you are stuck with. There are (for all practical purposes) no free agents available to sign in the playoffs. Having Fleury and his $5M cap hit before, during and after the trade deadline absolutely dictates what we can have available for the playoffs.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Confirmation bias, much?

If you don't want to discuss it, because you don't think it's worth discussing, cool. But this is exactly what I mean about people arguing in bad faith. You don't want a discussion, you want an intellectual handjob that will tell you you're right. And so you don't engage the arguments of posters you disagree with and try to disprove them on their merits.

And if that's what you want, you'll get that here in spades. I think it's a shame really.

Defensive and aggressive much?

You ignored literally 99 percent of what I said to cherry pick the fact that I don't think there's much discussion to begin with which is a statement you took completely the wrong way. I'm just saying that it's pretty undeniable that the Pens have underachieved over the course of the seasons since their Cup win and therefore there's not much to discuss. Arguing about whether it's embarrassing or not is arguing for the sake of arguing and nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

Just like how your post is combative, none contributing, and ignorant for the sake of being combative, none contributing, and ignorant.

Good post. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with us.

Pick one sentence to quote and ignore that his rather sober posts very much address the topic and affords both sides of it at least some consideration? It is certainly more intelligible stuff than most posts in this thread, and unlike your post above he actually discusses the topic.

Bad faith argument. Ad hominem even? Yes, but that would be on your part methinks. I think it is a shame really .

Cherry pick one sentence from a very thorough and well thought out post, much?

Thank you guys. Part of the reason I come to this board is because I know the Pens well and because I enjoy hockey discussion but the big reason is that I enjoy it better then my own Flyers board. I mean, you can tell just from that quote from our board in the second page of this topic how bad it can get over there with the homers. I mean, HandshakeLine's post is literally the only post I've ever received in reply on this part of the forum that was annoying.

Normally HandshakeLine would get to me and make me a bit sad but you guys negated that so thank you. =)