The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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Common theme here for me, and my issue with Shero's off-season, is this concept of "keeping the core together". If we were talking about Shero's stubborn patience with his core group, I'd be on board. My issue with Shero is his patience extends to the complimentary pieces.

Not being trigger happy on a deal to dump a core player like a Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, etc. is fine. I wouldn't want him to go full Holmgren in that regard. However, his love affair for keeping around guys like Adams, Glass, Dupuis, Fleury, etc., and continually sticking with vets like Eaton, is my issue with him. He seems incapable of shaking up the team, period, not just the core.

IMO, the successful teams are the ones who keep their talented core in place, but who properly tweak their complimentary pieces when things aren't working. They move players like Dupuis out so that they can bring in (or in this case, simply try and in-house prospect like Bennett) someone to play that spot. They move out fringe players like Adams or Glass and either find a "hungrier" replacement in free agency, or look to another in-house replacement in the system.

Look at the Blackhawks' two Cup winning teams. The core players (Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook) all remain, but a lot of the complimentary pieces have been changed. Heck, Niemi won them a Cup, but that didn't stop the Blackhawks from trying to upgrade that position. Meanwhile, Fleury's entrenched in a Pens uniform no matter how bad his playoff performances are.

So I really don't mind Shero's patience when it comes to the core of the team. Where I'm starting to get annoyed with him is his patience for even complimentary pieces that could be upgraded, but instead are kept around because they're familiar.

this is what I was talking about. It's great to keep your core together as long as your core is Sid, Geno, Neal and Letang. It's not great if your core is those guys and MAF, Adams, Dupuis, Eaton, Orpik (maybe), and to a lesser extent Kunitz. You can't have a 10 player core.

Not to mention holding onto and then extending a coach who has been out coached in 4 straight POs.
 

SHOOTANDSCORE

Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
Sep 25, 2005
10,952
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I'm really not sure how anyone can argue that we beat the Isles handily. 2 of our wins were in OT, including game 6. That means one bounce away from playing a game 7. We also were behind 3 times in game 6.

Sure, we beat them. Handily? Not a chance. It was a close series.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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Common theme here for me, and my issue with Shero's off-season, is this concept of "keeping the core together". If we were talking about Shero's stubborn patience with his core group, I'd be on board. My issue with Shero is his patience extends to the complimentary pieces.

Not being trigger happy on a deal to dump a core player like a Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, etc. is fine. I wouldn't want him to go full Holmgren in that regard. However, his love affair for keeping around guys like Adams, Glass, Dupuis, Fleury, etc., and continually sticking with vets like Eaton, is my issue with him. He seems incapable of shaking up the team, period, not just the core.

IMO, the successful teams are the ones who keep their talented core in place, but who properly tweak their complimentary pieces when things aren't working. They move players like Dupuis out so that they can bring in (or in this case, simply try and in-house prospect like Bennett) someone to play that spot. They move out fringe players like Adams or Glass and either find a "hungrier" replacement in free agency, or look to another in-house replacement in the system.

Look at the Blackhawks' two Cup winning teams. The core players (Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook) all remain, but a lot of the complimentary pieces have been changed. Heck, Niemi won them a Cup, but that didn't stop the Blackhawks from trying to upgrade that position. Meanwhile, Fleury's entrenched in a Pens uniform no matter how bad his playoff performances are.

So I really don't mind Shero's patience when it comes to the core of the team. Where I'm starting to get annoyed with him is his patience for even complimentary pieces that could be upgraded, but instead are kept around because they're familiar.

From their Cup year to 2013, the Hawks retained Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, and Hjalmarsson. That's a total of 9.

From our Cup year to now, we've retained Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Letang, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, and Fleury. That's a total of 9.

Now I'm no math whiz, but that looks like the same number to me. We have moved on from a ton of complementary pieces, people just gloss over that.

And Glass has only been here a year, man. It might seem like more, but it hasn't been.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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From their Cup year to 2013, the Hawks retained Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, and Hjalmarsson. That's a total of 9.

From our Cup year to now, we've retained Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Letang, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, and Fleury. That's a total of 9.

Now I'm no math whiz, but that looks like the same number to me. We have moved on from a ton of complementary pieces, people just gloss over that.

And Glass has only been here a year, man. It might seem like more, but it hasn't been.

You can't just add up to 9 and 9 and say that the players are equal. All of the Hawks' players are top 6 forwards or top 4 Dmen. Only 6 of the Pens players are top 6/4 players (and you can argue that Duper shouldn't be in the top 6).

TK doesn't play so he shouldn't be on the list.
Adams is a 4th liner
MAF has been bad and was replaced by TV last season
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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From their Cup year to 2013, the Hawks retained Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, and Hjalmarsson. That's a total of 9.

From our Cup year to now, we've retained Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Letang, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, and Fleury. That's a total of 9.

Now I'm no math whiz, but that looks like the same number to me. We have moved on from a ton of complementary pieces, people just gloss over that.

And Glass has only been here a year, man. It might seem like more, but it hasn't been.

Now, take out Sid, Geno, and Letang and Kane, Toews, and Keith.

Kunitz, Dupuis, Adams, Jeffrey, Orpik, Fleury versus Sharp, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson.

I'm no math whiz, but whatever disparity there is between the first three guys in the Pens favor is eclipsed ten fold by the disparity between the groups of remaining six. :p:
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,518
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From their Cup year to 2013, the Hawks retained Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, and Hjalmarsson. That's a total of 9.

From our Cup year to now, we've retained Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis, Letang, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, and Fleury. That's a total of 9.

Now I'm no math whiz, but that looks like the same number to me. We have moved on from a ton of complementary pieces, people just gloss over that.

And Glass has only been here a year, man. It might seem like more, but it hasn't been.

If you assume the core returnees for each team are Crosby/Malkin/Letang and Toews/Kane/Keith (in this case, defining "core" as the players the club is built around and close to untouchable), let's break down the remaining complimentary pieces that each team has chosen to maintain.

Dupuis, Kunitz, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, Fleury

Versus

Sharp, Hossa, Seabrook, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson

You don't see a significant difference in the complimentary pieces? You don't think perhaps it makes sense in that case to keep some of them around?

Which of Chicago's pieces have gotten worse that they've kept around? A lot of their complimentary pieces are either still as effective, or in the cases of young guys like Bickell or Hjalmarsson, more effective as players during their second Cup run.

Compare that to the Pens holding on to guy who have clearly seen better days, and yet again it illustrates that Shero seems to be way too patient with holding on to his complimentary pieces who aren't the same player anymore.

I mean, if you want to argue semantics and stick to my "bad math" as the focus of your argument, so be it. But you're intentionally ignoring the greater point, which is about Shero holding on to complimentary pieces too long who aren't very good. Your own list of complimentary players from the Pens' Cup win versus that of the Blackhawks is proof enough of that point.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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You can't just add up to 9 and 9 and say that the players are equal. All of the Hawks' players are top 6 forwards or top 4 Dmen. Only 6 of the Pens players are top 6/4 players (and you can argue that Duper shouldn't be in the top 6).

TK doesn't play so he shouldn't be on the list.
Adams is a 4th liner
MAF has been bad and was replaced by TV last season

Of course I can. The argument was that the Hawks had a ton of turnover because they weren't averse to change, and the Pens haven't because they can't handle change. That's clearly false.

Now, take out Sid, Geno, and Letang and Kane, Toews, and Keith.

Kunitz, Dupuis, Adams, Jeffrey, Orpik, Fleury versus Sharp, Hossa, Bickell, Bolland, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson.

I'm no math whiz, but whatever disparity there is between the first three guys in the Pens favor is eclipsed ten fold by the disparity between the groups of remaining six. :p:
If you assume the core returnees for each team are Crosby/Malkin/Letang and Toews/Kane/Keith (in this case, defining "core" as the players the club is built around and close to untouchable), let's break down the remaining complimentary pieces that each team has chosen to maintain.

Dupuis, Kunitz, Orpik, Adams, Jeffrey, Fleury

Versus

Sharp, Hossa, Seabrook, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson

You don't see a significant difference in the complimentary pieces? You don't think perhaps it makes sense in that case to keep some of them around?

Doesn't take a math whiz to figure out the cap hit disparity between those groups either, boys. ;)

We kept the ones we kept because they were good value for money. Fleury's the only exception to that.

Which of Chicago's pieces have gotten worse that they've kept around? A lot of their complimentary pieces are either still as effective, or in the cases of young guys like Bickell or Hjalmarsson, more effective as players during their second Cup run.

Uh, which of the Pens' players have gotten worse outside of Fleury and Orpik? Kunitz and Dupuis have gotten significantly better, in fact.

As for the Hawks, Bolland had a very tough year last season, and Hawks fans were adamant before the playoffs that Sharp was a leech.

The argument just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
 

silvsiara

Registered User
Jun 23, 2012
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Sharp turned out to be money in the playoffs, didn't he? And we all saw what Bolland did, regular season be damned. Dupuis had plenty of regular season success but once the Pens ran into a good defensive team that held Sid in check, he didn't really produce, did he? The argument still doesn't carry any water. Chicago's complementary pieces outdo Pittsburgh's and it ain't close.
 

Til the End of Time

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May 18, 2003
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Of course I can. The argument was that the Hawks had a ton of turnover because they weren't averse to change, and the Pens haven't because they can't handle change. That's clearly false.



Doesn't take a math whiz to figure out the cap hit disparity between those groups either, boys. ;)

We kept the ones we kept because they were good value for money. Fleury's the only exception to that.



Uh, which of the Pens' players have gotten worse outside of Fleury and Orpik? Kunitz and Dupuis have gotten significantly better, in fact.

As for the Hawks, Bolland had a very tough year last season, and Hawks fans were adamant before the playoffs that Sharp was a leech.

The argument just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

fleury is a pretty huge mark against shero and co. he's horrific and you know it.
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
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Of course I can. The argument was that the Hawks had a ton of turnover because they weren't averse to change, and the Pens haven't because they can't handle change. That's clearly false.

No, not you can't.

Trying to compare TK or Adams to Sharp or Hossa is a ****ing joke. TK played 14 reg season games in 2009 and 0 PO games, but you want to compare him to guys who have actually contributed to PO wins?

Your blind view if your selective stats is pretty much the whole basis of this discussion.
 
Last edited:

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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Of course I can. The argument was that the Hawks had a ton of turnover because they weren't averse to change, and the Pens haven't because they can't handle change. That's clearly false.

The bigger point was Shero being too patient with fringe complimentary pieces. You compared him to a GM keeping around actual talented complimentary pieces.

You seem to insist on ignoring *that* part of the discussion to focus on "both teams had 9 layovers from the Cup" part.

Doesn't take a math whiz to figure out the cap hit disparity between those groups either, boys. ;)

We kept the ones we kept because they were good value for money. Fleury's the only exception to that.

So it's okay to keep crap around as long as they don't cost that much? So as long as Tanner Glass is only renewed for $1 million or less, it's fine for Shero to keep him on for the next five seasons?

Because really, what does cap hit disparity have to do with defending Shero's patience with keeping around useless/declining players?

Uh, which of the Pens' players have gotten worse outside of Fleury and Orpik? Kunitz and Dupuis have gotten significantly better, in fact.

Fleury and Orpik should have been cut loose/replaced a couple of seasons back, and Adams is and always will be a very fringe 4th liner. Not to mention hanging on to Dupuis has resulted in him playing on the top line while Bennett is stuck on line 3 (when Neal returns). That's four players out of 9 returnees who probably should have been moved long ago to either make room for promising youngsters or who are in need of upgrading.

You can argue that last point isn't really on Shero because it's a coaching decision, but the fact Shero gave that coach an extension, thus basically signifying he agrees with his coaching decisions, would suggest otherwise.

As for the Hawks, Bolland had a very tough year last season, and Hawks fans were adamant before the playoffs that Sharp was a leech.

The argument just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny if you twist things to fit your agenda. Bolland had a tough year? Yeah, he was hurt. When healthy, he's been a huge part of both Cup runs. He was money in their first Cup win, and he scored the Cup winning goal in their second. Talk to me when any of the guys you listed in the Pens' complimentary list step up in the playoffs, rather than disappear (cough*Kunitz*cough*Dupuis*cough*).

As for Sharp, he's as much a leech as James Neal is a leech on Malkin's line. Every fanbase tends to get on those types of players when they struggle, ours included. How many threads involved people talking about how one-dimensional Neal is last season? Doesn't mean they're right. Fact is, Sharp is still a deadly scorer. If he was a Pen, he'd likely be only behind Sid and Geno, in terms of overall ability.

Bottom line, and I'll repeat it again since you glossed over it in your last post to once again concentrate on the "9 Cup returnees each" part, is that Shero's patience too often extends to declining or useless complimentary pieces. When guys like Craig Adams basically have tenure, and when guys like Orpik or Fleury, who have struggled mightly the past few seasons, are kept on in key roles, and when guys like Pascal Dupuis are guaranteed first line roles, I don't see how you can argue otherwise.
 

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