I'm a historian and archivist. Trashy History Channel documentaries and best sellers written by journalists aren't good reflections of proper historical scholarship.
History is the interpretation of what has actually happened. Nothing more.
Ignoring actual history and using hypothetical questions seems like a silly way to judge history. You keep calling everything that happened an excuse, I call it history. Considering we are discussing history, looking at what actually happened makes sense to me.
If Lee hadn't fought at Gettysburg, then what happens? If the Japanese hadn't combed Pearl Harbor? End of the day, the questions don't matter, only the results.
What if Malkin hadn't been hurt? Questions like THAT are what both of you are using as a crutch. Your suggesting that things would've been better IF certain things hadn't happened. So, really, I'm not the one asking the WHAT IF questions here. People like both of you are. And, how dare anyone else follow suit just once, yes?
I'm saying it doesn't matter. The Pens have 3 playoff series wins and one ECF in which they were swept to show for the four years since winning the cup. In June 2009, I'd have expected more than that.
You keep saying this, but the whole premise of the thread shows that the Pens' record over those 4 years requires no excuses. I have not made any excuses, yet you keep repeating it. Are you in an alternate reality right now? Because that's the only explanation for interpreting a thread that outlines a team's playoff successes relative to the league as excuses.
If you were to make a case for Fleury by outlining his successes relative to other goalies around the league over the last 4 years, then that wouldn't be "excuses" either. Of course, nobody could do that.
First off, KIRK, I'll say this is a flawed premise to begin with. Ask the fanbase of any team with a talented young core right after a Cup win how they think they'll fare in the coming years, and it's not rocket science to figure out that the expectations are going to be unreasonably high. How would Chicago fans have reacted if in June 2010, you told them that they were going to be eliminated in the 1st round the next two playoffs, and be down 3-1 in the 2nd round the third playoffs?
Exactly.
But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have considered the results through 2013 embarrassing, because I know how hard it is to win in the league. Disappointing, but not embarrassing. And that isn't just a semantic issue. It's a question of how close a one comes to fulfilling their highest potential, and how well they fare relative to others. Victor Hedman was a #2 overall pick in '09. He's been disappointing relative to the absurdly high expectations, but hardly embarrassing. That's the difference.
Putting our playoff record since '09 into context isn't whitewashing, it should be sobering. Particularly since some people sound like they've slugged back a drink or ten when discussing the Pens' "embarrassing" results over that period.
You do realize that I actually came down on your side in the debate as to whether 'disappointing' is a more appropriate choice of words than 'embarrassing'.
BTW, who's to say that the Pens would've won one more series IF Sid and/or Geno hadn't been hurt? You can say it's likely that they would've. BUT, you can't on the one hand say 'results matter' and then say, in effect, 'they don't matter if I can hypothetically argue that things could've transpired different'. Chicago didn't lose to Detroit this year. Boston didn't lose to Toronto this year. And, since 2009, a Pens team with a cup, so much promise, and Sid and Geno not even in their primes has 3 playoff wins and being swept in the ECF to show for the four years since.
THAT is the result that matters. And, on that greater level, WHO, WHAT, WHY, and HOW are as immaterial as questions about why Rome fell. In the end, it happened. What might have been doesn't matter, because what might have been didn't happen.