The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

[Dipsy Doodle]

They certainly looked exactly like the Philly series against the Islanders last spring. The difference was we switched goalies and won this time. Had we lost in Round 1, it would have been the identical situation, structurally and in terms of results.

Had we gone past Philadelphia in 2012, we probably wouldn't have looked so deer-in-the-headlights in Round 2.

There are PLENTY of similarities between what happened in 2012 and what happened last spring...and it starts between the pipes.

Forgetting for the moment the dubious idea that we looked like we did vs. Philly against the Isles, the playoffs were not only one round last year. If you any team's playoffs by their worst playoff round, you're probably not going to come away with a representative sample.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Forgetting for the moment the dubious idea that we looked like we did vs. Philly against the Isles, the playoffs were not only one round last year. If you any team's playoffs by their worst playoff round, you're probably not going to come away with a representative sample.

We looked terrible against the Islanders, and got schooled against the Bruins.

We've looked like anything but a Cup contender in three of our last four series, so this is far more trend than blip.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

We got lucky that Nabby was terrible and the Isles gave us two free wins.

 

[radapex]

We got lucky that Nabby was terrible and the Isles gave us two free wins.

That's the funny thing - for as bad as Fleury's been in his last two playoff series, his opposing goaltenders (Nabokov, Bryzgalov) have been almost equally as bad.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We looked terrible against the Islanders, and got schooled against the Bruins.

We've looked like anything but a Cup contender in three of our last four series, so this is far more trend than blip.

You're changing the argument. Whatever one thinks of the Isles series, we looked much, much better and more structured vs. Ottawa and Boston than we did the year before vs. Philly, so no, we have not gotten "worse and worse structurally" every year since '09.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We beat the Isles handily and looked nothing like we did against Philly against the Isles. Aside from Fleury. Fleury had to kick pucks into his own net for us to lose to the Isles.

 

[Al Smith]

You're changing the argument. Whatever one thinks of the Isles series, we looked much, much better and more structured vs. Ottawa and Boston than we did the year before vs. Philly, so no, we have not gotten "worse and worse structurally" every year since '09.

People don't want to remember the Isles had close to the best, if not the best, record in the league during the last fifteen games of the season or so and the Pens beat them in 6. It would have been five without some of Fleury's antics.

Looking forward to the puck drop tomorrow.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The first two games of the BOS series was pretty close to how they lost their **** in the Philly series.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This scene is a microcosm of how I felt watching Disco's approach to the past few playoff years with the Penguins, and pretty much what I expect from the next playoff series and basically the next several after that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We beat the Isles handily and looked nothing like we did against Philly against the Isles. Aside from Fleury. Fleury had to kick pucks into his own net for us to lose to the Isles.

That's revisionist history. The Isles outshot the Pens by a pretty good margin minus the Game 1 blowout, and controlled a lot of the play even in the games the Pens won (again, minus the Game 1 blowout).

The only game the Pens beat the Isles "handily" was the aforementioned 5-0 Game 1 domination.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The first two games of the BOS series was pretty close to how they lost their **** in the Philly series.

1) The Pens were the better team in Game 1 until the inconsistent reffing got the best of them. Orpik and Crosby get ticky-tack interference calls, Marchand gets away with the most blatant interference anyone's ever seen. Cooke gets ejected for a dangerous hit, Marchand gets a minor. Crosby literally gets held by one player and punched in the face by another, no call. Anybody would have gotten riled up there.

2) The final two games against Boston, after DB's adjustments (though not all the ones we wanted), were played very well.

It really wasn't anything like Philly outside of Game 2 and the 3rd period of Game 1.

 

[Shady Machine]

We beat the Isles handily and looked nothing like we did against Philly against the Isles. Aside from Fleury. Fleury had to kick pucks into his own net for us to lose to the Isles.

I totally disagree (surprise!). We did not beat the Isles handily. Both goalies were weak in that series and obviously Fleury was awful. We made that series far more interesting that it needed to be. Outside of game 1, we looked mediocre against Isles.

 

[Shady Machine]

1) The Pens were the better team in Game 1 until the inconsistent reffing got the best of them. Orpik and Crosby get ticky-tack interference calls, Marchand gets away with the most blatant interference anyone's ever seen. Cooke gets ejected for a dangerous hit, Marchand gets a minor. Crosby literally gets held by one player and punched in the face by another, no call. Anybody would have gotten riled up there.

2) The final two games against Boston, after DB's adjustments (though not all the ones we wanted), were played very well.

It really wasn't anything like Philly outside of Game 2 and the 3rd period of Game 1.

Oh yes those wonderful adjustments. He's really great at making adjustments.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I totally disagree (surprise!). We did not beat the Isles handily. Both goalies were weak in that series and obviously Fleury was awful. We made that series far more interesting that it needed to be. Outside of game 1, we looked mediocre against Isles.

Thank you. At least some people actually watched that series. All I remember was Kyle Okposo and Travis Hamonic having their way against us, at either end of the rink. We were dominated physically and out-skated by a fairly wide margin.

It wasn't just that Fleury was BAD, Vokoun was GREAT when he came in. And we needed every bit of his best to beat the Isles. Not to mention how badly Nabokov crapped the bed for them.

But I suppose everything is rosy.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

1) The Pens were the better team in Game 1 until the inconsistent reffing got the best of them. Orpik and Crosby get ticky-tack interference calls, Marchand gets away with the most blatant interference anyone's ever seen. Cooke gets ejected for a dangerous hit, Marchand gets a minor. Crosby literally gets held by one player and punched in the face by another, no call. Anybody would have gotten riled up there.

2) The final two games against Boston, after DB's adjustments (though not all the ones we wanted), were played very well.

It really wasn't anything like Philly outside of Game 2 and the 3rd period of Game 1.

They didn't get a call and acted like spoiled children and had a temper tantrum. Pretty much exactly what happened vs PHI.

Using DBs "adjustments" as a positive is ****ing laughable. They cleaned up the defensive part of the game but didn't change anything on the offensive side of the puck. It seems like DB can only have this team have the D working or the O working, never both.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Oh yes those wonderful adjustments. He's really great at making adjustments.

He doesn't make all the ones we want (or want most), but the guy does make adjustments...personnel and tactics-wise. We just downplay them whenever he does, haha.

They didn't get a call and acted like spoiled children and had a temper tantrum. Pretty much exactly what happened vs PHI.

Using DBs "adjustments" as a positive is ****ing laughable. They cleaned up the defensive part of the game but didn't change anything on the offensive side of the puck. It seems like DB can only have this team have the D working or the O working, never both.

The subject was whether the Pens have gotten worse structurally every year. Whatever you make of isolated moments from the Boston series, or DB's adjustments in general, that's clearly not true...as with most assumptions that led to this thread. Which is why the argument has now switched to things other than their actual playoff record, which speaks for itself when put in context.

As for having the d and o working at the same time, we scored 4.4 GPG and allowed 2.2 GPG against the Sens. Downplay the opponent all you want because of their seeding, but the fact is that the Sens made it to the 2nd round by finishing off a #2 seed in 5 games.

 

[mpp9]

We've beaten the Sens twice and Isles once since 09. While the Hawks got through Detroit, LA and Boston in the same year. I just don't think DB has much to hang his hat on since the Cup in terms of performances against quality opponents. Whether its tactics, disciplining vets or putting individuals in the best possible position to succeed.

He's not as bad as most make him out to be. But during the primes of Sid/Geno, we need better.

 

[wgknestrick]

He doesn't make all the ones we want (or want most), but the guy does make adjustments...personnel and tactics-wise. We just downplay them whenever he does, haha.



The subject was whether the Pens have gotten worse structurally every year. Whatever you make of isolated moments from the Boston series, or DB's adjustments in general, that's clearly not true...as with most assumptions that led to this thread. Which is why the argument has now switched to things other than their actual playoff record, which speaks for itself when put in context.

As for having the d and o working at the same time, we scored 4.4 GPG and allowed 2.2 GPG against the Sens. Downplay the opponent all you want because of their seeding, but the fact is that the Sens made it to the 2nd round by finishing off a #2 seed in 5 games.

Can I remind you that the #2 seed was MON who greatly overachieved in a short season? The #2 seeding was not representative of their talent IMO. NYI were a better team IMO.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Can I remind you that the #2 seed was MON who greatly overachieved in a short season? The #2 seeding was not representative of their talent IMO. NYI were a better team IMO.

I happen to think the Isles were better too...they're a very good team, in fact, which is why they were so impressive to end the regular season and into the playoffs.

But the argument here has been based on seeds. It's stupid and simplistic, but you live by the seed, you die by the seed.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

He doesn't make all the ones we want (or want most), but the guy does make adjustments...personnel and tactics-wise. We just downplay them whenever he does, haha.



The subject was whether the Pens have gotten worse structurally every year. Whatever you make of isolated moments from the Boston series, or DB's adjustments in general, that's clearly not true...as with most assumptions that led to this thread. Which is why the argument has now switched to things other than their actual playoff record, which speaks for itself when put in context.

As for having the d and o working at the same time, we scored 4.4 GPG and allowed 2.2 GPG against the Sens. Downplay the opponent all you want because of their seeding, but the fact is that the Sens made it to the 2nd round by finishing off a #2 seed in 5 games.

How can you possibly defend Db by using his adjustments as a positive? That's prolly the worst of your many DB defenses, lol.

The Sens were pretty awful in those 5 games. If you want to put them on a pestilential to make yourself feel better I won't be surprised.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

How can you possibly defend Db by using his adjustments as a positive? That's prolly the worst of your many DB defenses, lol.

I didn't. I simply said he did make adjustments that led to improved team play last playoffs. They weren't all the ones we wanted, but he wasn't stagnant. He changed the line-up, he changed the line configurations, and he changed tactics.

But again, the point of this thread is their playoff record. The further we get from that, the further we get from objective results and the closer we get to going back to the subjective BS that led to the creation of the thread.

The Sens were pretty awful in those 5 games. If you want to put them on a pestilential to make yourself feel better I won't be surprised.

It can never be the Pens playing well, can it? Even when players and coaches on the other team repeatedly go on record saying exactly that, and gushing about the level of play exhibited.

But I suppose it's more likely that they were lying, and had all of a sudden started playing poorly after knocking off the #2 seed.

 

[Shady Machine]

The Pens played very well in the Ottawa series. The issue is that I expected them to win that series in the manner they did. Gimpy Karlsson and half of Spezza made them a fairly weak opponent for our stacked lineup. Of course, they still had to go out and execute so I give them props for that.

The real question to me is about expectations and the Pens not meeting them. RRP can point to only x amount of teams making the playoffs every year since 2009 and that's great, but we have been considered cup favorites nearly every year. Making the playoffs is basically a given IMO. Point being, we shouldn't be comparing the Pens to the other 29 teams for success, we should be comparing them to the elite teams in the league (Chicago, Boston, LA).

Our only series wins since 2009 have come against inferior teams. Ottawa twice and the Isles once. We have been ousted in what I would consider unacceptable fashion twice. That is the reality as I see it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The Pens played very well in the Ottawa series. The issue is that I expected them to win that series in the manner they did. Gimpy Karlsson and half of Spezza made them a fairly weak opponent for our stacked lineup. Of course, they still had to go out and execute so I give them props for that.

The series against the Sens was the only one I think the Pens actually played close to what they, on paper anyway, were capable of playing. That was the kind of dominating display you'd expect of a team with the two best players in hockey, and who finished first in the conference by quite a large margin.

It's the Islanders series and the Boston series where my frustration with this club comes to the surface. In the case of the Islanders, apart from Game 1, the Islanders arguably controlled large portions of the play that series. If they'd gotten the same kind of goaltending that Vokoun gave the Pens, the Isles would be in round two. In the case of Boston, the Pens finally played a team that was on par with them, and it resulted in a 4-0 series sweep, in which the Pens scored 2 goals the entire series. Both of those series, for different reasons, were what I'd call embarrassing.

The real question to me is about expectations and the Pens not meeting them. RRP can point to only x amount of teams making the playoffs every year since 2009 and that's great, but we have been considered cup favorites nearly every year. Making the playoffs is basically a given IMO. Point being, we shouldn't be comparing the Pens to the other 29 teams for success, we should be comparing them to the elite teams in the league (Chicago, Boston, LA).

This is where I'm at as well. Comparing the Pens' playoff success/failure to teams that are very clearly below them in terms of talent level, is silly. For a team like the Islanders, just making the playoffs is considered a success. Shouldn't we hold the Pens to a higher standard than that?

Since 2009, the Pens -- considering the "on paper" roster they've had over that time -- have been really disappointing. I'm not really sure how that's even debatable. The only way it is is if all teams are considered equal, and the Pens can boast about being more successful than your Islanders, Sens, or even Rangers. I'd like to think the Pens are better than them, but apparently they're on par since their successes is measured against the Pens'.

Our only series wins since 2009 have come against inferior teams. Ottawa twice and the Isles once. We have been ousted in what I would consider unacceptable fashion twice. That is the reality as I see it.

And that's the problem. Since 2009, anytime the Pens have played a team that is better or equal to them, they've lost. The only teams the Pens have beaten in the playoffs since 2009 are the ones that are, by hockey standards, the so-called "no doubters". But when the Pens play a team who is their equal? Philly, Tampa Bay (since Malkin and Crosby were out, I'd say they were equal), and Boston happens. Fact is, since 2009 the Pens haven't won a playoff series unless they were considered the heavy favorites going in.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I totally disagree (surprise!). We did not beat the Isles handily. Both goalies were weak in that series and obviously Fleury was awful. We made that series far more interesting that it needed to be. Outside of game 1, we looked mediocre against Isles.

We did look mediocre and we still beat them handily. We are that much better than they are.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We did look mediocre and we still beat them handily. We are that much better than they are.

Your definition of handily must be mighty generous. If you remove the Game 1 score, which everyone admits was a dominating effort, the rest of the series saw the Pens outscore the Isles 20-17 in the other 5 games (a whopping 3 more goals in 5 games!), while being outshot by the Islanders in 3 out of the 5 games.