The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part IV

[Ice-Tray]

What? Didn't the Sens throw in a 2nd because New York paid Brassard's bonus?

That’s an unsubstantiated rumour that has been denied, so take that for whatever it’s worth. Either way, it was also widely felt that Brassard was the better player than Zib and we were trying to do some damage immediately. Regardless, budget teams are always looking for ways to shave costs, so it is possible PD saw a way to save some money, as well.

My point was that we didn’t trade Zib to save money, or because we COULDNT afford him, we traded him because PD didn’t want to pay him what he would command based on the character and inconsistent effort and play. He chose to instead trade for a ‘better player’ who would help us win more games immediately.

Same situation as Turris. If PD thought it would be money well spent to sign these guys instead then they would have been. It’s not like we couldn’t have afforded Zibz contract.

Given that we don’t have the budget to simply keep players and just add better ones to the roster, we had to make upgrades in players we had if we wanted to try and compete with EK on the roster. It was a heavy budget ‘going for it’, during a filmy opaque window.

That’s what makes sense to me, others see differently.

 

[Peptic Balcers]

My point was that we didn’t trade Zib to save money, or because we COULDNT afford him, we traded him because PD didn’t want to pay him what he would command based on the character and inconsistent effort and play. He chose to instead trade for a ‘better player’ who would help us win more games immediately.

This type of player assessment is exactly why Pierre Dorion should not be in charge of getting value back on the Sen's best players. Brassard has not been better since that trade was made, and he even added a 2nd to sweeten the pot. Zibby shoots and produces at a rate that fair exceeds his contract. As a budget team, that's the kind of guy you want.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Why?

Because I dont particularly like Zibs dedication to the team and the sport as role model.

It would seem that given his immense tool set that he has been able to put things together in a rebuilding team, and maybe it will extend beyond this season, and perhaps he will end up being a great leader.

But at least for right now I personally need to ‘see’ it to believe it. My memories of him with us still outweigh whatever he is right now, admittedly because I don’t ever watch the Rangers, and know little more than his stat line.

To be clear my post was looking more at zibs ability to be a role model for the kids, not saying he isn’t a skilled player.

If I’m wrong about his dedication and consistency changing, I’m totally open to being shown that.

 

[BatherSeason]

Either way, it was also widely felt that Brassard was the better player than Zib

Ummmm, no it wasn't

It’s not like we couldn’t have afforded Zibz contract

Lolz -

Is Melnyk paying you Count's salary on top of your own now?? That has to be the only explanation.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Not about the money but in that same trade they gave up a second round pick so the Rangers would pay Brassard's bonus.

Again, even though this is a denied rumour that has become HF fact, it doesn’t change my point.

The trade was a hockey move, if the 2nd for bonus was true, it was an added money move, not the impetus for the trade.

It was also a popular sentiment around here that Zibby was lazy, and not a guy you win with, and Brass was known as a playoff player.

We traded youth and potential to hopefully make some noise immediately.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Because I dont particularly like Zibs dedication to the team and the sport as role model.

It would seem that given his immense tool set that he has been able to put things together in a rebuilding team, and maybe it will extend beyond this season, and perhaps he will end up being a great leader.

But at least for right now I personally need to ‘see’ it to believe it. My memories of him with us still outweigh whatever he is right now, admittedly because I don’t ever watch the Rangers, and know little more than his stat line.

To be clear my post was looking more at zibs ability to be a role model for the kids, not saying he isn’t a skilled player.

If I’m wrong about his dedication and consistency changing, I’m totally open to being shown that.

What does any of this mean? What made him a bad role model exactly?

Everyone around the team before the trade, including Dorion, was talking about how impressive his offseason training was going in Ottawa and how he was in the best shape of his career.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yeah who needs a 6'2 PPG 2-way center. Glad you're not the GM

The feeling is very mutual.

Maybe it’s before you were here or a Sens fan. Go back and look at the Zib threads if you have forgotten what kind of layer he was when he was here. He was a very polarizing player.

 

[branch]

The feeling is very mutual.

Maybe it’s before you were here or a Sens fan. Go back and look at the Zib threads if you have forgotten what kind of layer he was when he was here. He was a very polarizing player.

Nice condescension even though my join date is right there staring you in the face. That aside I remember him as being a raw center with massive potential. Looks like we didn't have the patience to wait for him to blossom into what he is now, which is a very very good 2 way C on a great contract.

 

[GrantLemons]

Regardless of why we traded Zib, the trade was f***ing embarrassing.

We gave away a big, young centre with tons of upside, and we tossed in a very valuable 2nd, for a decent middle 6 C who was pushing 30. We should have been able to acquire Brassard for that 2nd alone.

There's no defense for this trade. It was awful the day it went down, and it's even more awful now.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Because I dont particularly like Zibs dedication to the team and the sport as role model.

It would seem that given his immense tool set that he has been able to put things together in a rebuilding team, and maybe it will extend beyond this season, and perhaps he will end up being a great leader.

But at least for right now I personally need to ‘see’ it to believe it. My memories of him with us still outweigh whatever he is right now, admittedly because I don’t ever watch the Rangers, and know little more than his stat line.

To be clear my post was looking more at zibs ability to be a role model for the kids, not saying he isn’t a skilled player.

If I’m wrong about his dedication and consistency changing, I’m totally open to being shown that.

Your memories are of him when he was between 19 and 22 years of age. Was he immature? Yes. Did he lack consistency? Yes. Did his training habits need work? Yes.

But you know why? Because he was between 19 and 22 years of age.

Many of the young “kids” we bring in for this so-called rebuild will have those exact same issues. Hell, Logan Brown ticks all of those boxes now. So does Eeli Tolvanen, a guy who's rumored to be in the "haul" for Duchene. Roslovic, another "top" young player we're apparently looking for, is 22 and far less accomplished and talented than Zibanejad was at the same age. Yet, it was good to move on from Zibanejad, but Roslovic will be a big piece for the future.

Sure.

 

[Ice-Tray]

This type of player assessment is exactly why Pierre Dorion should not be in charge of getting value back on the Sen's best players. Brassard has not been better since that trade was made, and he even added a 2nd to sweeten the pot. Zibby shoots and produces at a rate that fair exceeds his contract. As a budget team, that's the kind of guy you want.

It was a widely held opinion at the time around all of the professionals in here as well.

Lots of revisionism going in here.

 

[BatherSeason]

Again, even though this is a denied rumour that has become HF fact, it doesn’t change my point.

Didn't the same guy that denied the rumor also publicly say that the next team he speaks to the fanbase would be to announce a Duchene extension??
Or the same guy who said that they would have no problems re-signing Stone to a long tem contract?
Or the same guy who constantly reassured us that Melnyk is not involved in Hockey Ops decisions??
Or the same guy that said that claims that 75% of the fanbase is on board with the rebuild?

Shall I go on??

 

[Ice-Tray]

What does any of this mean? What made him a bad role model exactly?

Everyone around the team before the trade, including Dorion, was talking about how impressive his offseason training was going in Ottawa and how he was in the best shape of his career.

Best shape.... also lazy and inconsistent play.

I think I have heard that very same argument made endlessly in the BR thread.

 

[BatherSeason]

Best shape.... also lazy and inconsistent play.

I think I have heard that very same argument made endlessly in the BR thread.

Let me guess, you would like every player to be in the mold of Boro or Ceci?

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Hey.

But seriously.

Stop it. Enough with the squabbling, guys.

Otherwise it's infractions for some, and miniature American flags for others.

 

[Sensung]

Regardless of why we traded Zib, the trade was ****ing embarrassing.

We gave away a big, young centre with tons of upside, and we tossed in a very valuable 2nd, for a decent middle 6 C who was pushing 30. We should have been able to acquire Brassard for that 2nd alone.

There's no defense for this trade. It was awful the day it went down, and it's even more awful now.

Yup

 

[Ice-Tray]

Your memories are of him when he was between 19 and 22 years of age. Was he immature? Yes. Did he lack consistency? Yes. Did his training habits need work? Yes.

But you know why? Because he was between 19 and 22 years of age.

Many of the young “kids” we bring in for this so-called rebuild will have those exact same issues. Tons of young players do. Hell, Logan Brown ticks all of those boxes now.

Hopefully we don’t give up on him at 22 and actually try to develop him properly.

Hey fair enough Dave, but we’re getting away from the scope of my original post. We made a hockey deal trading a player with in consistent skill and effort for a player that was better at the time and felt to be a much tester playoff competitor. We didn’t trade Zib because we couldn’t afford him.

The money for pick but is a rumour, that has been denied, but I’d it were true, it is still a side transaction to the deal, not part of the reason.

My opinion has been shared

 

[Silencio]

Up until this year Rangers fans had the exact same complaints about Zibanejad (work ethic, inconsistency) that Sens fans had while he was here. I wish we hadn't made the trade in hindsight but I can also understand the reasoning behind it at the time.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Didn't the same guy that denied the rumor also publicly say that the next team he speaks to the fanbase would be to announce a Duchene extension??
Or the same guy who said that they would have no problems re-signing Stone to a long tem contract?
Or the same guy who constantly reassured us that Melnyk is not involved in Hockey Ops decisions??
Or the same guy that said that claims that 75% of the fanbase is on board with the rebuild?

Shall I go on??

This is what happens when you take what someone says and try and spin it to fit your narrative about PD.

PD made the Duchene and Stone comments to the media meaning that he wasn’t going to talk about the negotiations in the media, and that he wanted the next time he spoke about it to be to announce a signing.

We now know that he never talked about the negotiations in the media, and that he has gone full bore to sign both. He was true to his word there, the one thing he can’t control is whether the guys want to sign.

In my mind you’re basing that post on 100% incorrect listen uhg comprehension, though I suspect you’re doing it purposely as I explained earlier.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Even with his issues, Zibanejad was traded for a player that produced similarly and happened to be 6 years older. Had to throw in a 2nd rounder because Melnyk too.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Hey fair enough Dave, but we’re getting away from the scope of my original post. We made a hockey deal trading a player with in consistent skill and effort for a player that was better at the time and felt to be a much tester playoff competitor. We didn’t trade Zib because we couldn’t afford him.

The money for pick but is a rumour, that has been denied, but I’d it were true, it is still a side transaction to the deal, not part of the reason.

My opinion has been shared

Zibanejad 15-16: 21 goals, 51 points in 81 games for Ottawa. (22 years old)
Brassard 15-16: 27 goals, 58 points in 80 games for NYR. (28 years old)

We made a lateral move in talent, got older, but saved money. Why we also gave up a 2nd rounder, who knows. But it made a bad trade worse.

Keep in mind that Brassard has had character concerns his whole career, so he wasn't some great leader either.

It was a bad trade at the time, and is a bad trade in hindsight. Brassard never even matched his NYR numbers here, regular season or playoffs. He never topped 20 goals or 40 points. He was a big disappointment.

It's okay to admit that Dorion has made bad trades.

 

[stempniaksen]

Even with his issues, Zibanejad was traded for a player that produced similarly and happened to be 6 years older. Had to throw in a 2nd rounder because Melnyk too.

That's why defending this move with the power of hindsight blows my mind.

At that time? I was still against it it, but can at least see the logic in it. But to call it a good move in hindsight has to be one of the sillier takes I've see around here.

 

[Smash88]

I'm not sure why people here are debating this.

It was a widely held belief that Brassard was the better player at the time of the trade.

It was also a widely held belief that in 3 or 4 years time, Zib would be the better player.

It was a bad trade in that sense, but that year we were trying to go all in. Brassard was known at the time as "The" playoff guy. It was a gamble. Had we won the cup in any of the years he was here, it would of been a great trade.

If we add context into why this trade was made, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than just looking at the actual trade in a vacuum.

Sens have made a lot of bad deals, but I don't really think this one is all that bad.

 

[BatherSeason]

We now know that he never talked about the negotiations in the media, and that he has gone full bore to sign both.

We know nothing. Stop accusing people of "trying to fit their narrative", when you are doing the exact same thing here. Full bore?? Really? How do you know this?? Daily conference calls that yopu have been a part of? Also, if this hasn't been negotiated through the media, as you claim, then why make a statement that "we know he went full bore".

The only facts that we know are that this team had 4 major UFAs to sign this year. One has already been traded for peanuts, 3 more will be traded in the coming days. Rumours out there are that signing bonus and contract structure are the stumbling blocks, which to me, and about 97% of people who follow, cover and watch hockey knows that this means that they are not offering what they should

 

[justafan22]

When's the last time Dorion spoke to the media?