The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[BondraTime]

You don't think they are the favourites in the west?

They are the favorites, but they have to make the Cup final AND re-sign Karlsson. Not 1 or the other, but both.

 

[Alex1234]

The way the NHL top teams are shaping is you need a 1-2 punch at centre position and an elite puck moving D
When Duchene walks or is traded for peanuts we have no C worth mentioning

Stamkos Point Hedman
Kuznetsov Backstrom Carlsson
Crosby Malkin Letang
Bergeron Krejci Krug
Stasny Scheiffele Big Buf
Forsberg Johanssen Subban





We will have
Pageau Tierney Chabot

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

What was it that Jim Nill said after snatching Spezza for nothing? 'They targeted the right guys from us'? Something like that.

Déjà vu.

Ugh, yep.

“They targeted the right players, and moving forward they’re going to have some good players,” Nill says. “Every day we come to work trying to get better. Now, something doesn’t happen every day. But as long as you stay at it, eventually something will come along. You just gotta be prepared for it.”

I also vividly remember some serious tire-pumping on Nick Paul after the fact. But the centrepiece of that deal being Chiasson still irks me so much. Let's hope Tierney doesn't become Chiasson redux.

 

[Alex1234]

You don't think they are the favourites in the west?

I think Nash is still better
Close call with Winni

 

[DueDiligence]

You don't think they are the favourites in the west?

No . Their key guys are much older than average. Health becomes a big factor. Joe Thorton is 39, Pavelski and Burns 34 and Valsic 31. One of those guys will be out this year for a long time. In a long playoff schedule they will get worn down more than the younger teams.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

You don't think they are the favourites in the west?

It's not easy to make the cup final even if a team is a contender. Look at Tampa last year missing out in the East. They were a power house, and they didn't make it through. Pittsburgh didn't make it through either. Nashville and Winnipeg were exceptional and failed to make the cup final in the West.

Not to mention, the NHL's format makes it harder for the best teams to go farther. The 2nd and 3rd best team in the conference can end up facing off against each other in the first round depending on how things shake out in the standings.

So, what are the odds that the SJS both sign Karlsson, and beat out Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, or St.Louis to make the cup final? That's not even accounting for secondary teams like Chicago, Colorado, Anaheim, Dallas, or Edmonton. All of which could make some noise under the right conditions.

Realistically, we should have gotten a 1st round pick if Karlsson re-signs, not a 2nd, and not a 1st if they make the cup final. That's the worst part of the trade for me, because I can listen to guys like Bob McKenzie tell me how soft offers were for Karl as a rental and maybe justify to myself that if we were going to trade Karlsson, this is where the market was at for a year of him. But I can't imagine how the difference between 1 year of Karlsson and 8-9 years of Karlsson is only a future 2nd round pick.

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

Pretty insane how Sakic landed them Girard, Bowers and a 1st for Duchene. A 19 year old puckmoving D, an 18 year old prospect and a 1st rounder

It’s been a week and I still can’t fathom how Chris Tierney and Josh Norris are the biggest pieces coming back for Erik Karlsson. How is a GM this bad at his job? What were Vegas and Dallas offering?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think Nash is still better
Close call with Winni

It's not even entirely about being the best. The best teams don't always make it the deepest in the playoffs. We should know that because we certainly weren't the 2nd best team in the East in the 16-17 season, yet we made it to a goal away from the Cup final. There's a lot of luck involved, getting the right match ups, guys either staying or not staying healthy.

There's just so many exceptional teams as well, so it's very difficult to point at one team and say "they'll be in the Cup final".

 

[BankStreetParade]

It's not easy to make the cup final even if a team is a contender. Look at Tampa last year missing out in the East. They were a power house, and they didn't make it through. Pittsburgh didn't make it through either. Nashville and Winnipeg were exceptional and failed to make the cup final in the West.

Not to mention, the NHL's format makes it harder for the best teams to go farther. The 2nd and 3rd best team in the conference can end up facing off against each other in the first round depending on how things shake out in the standings.

So, what are the odds that the SJS both sign Karlsson, and beat out Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas, or St.Louis to make the cup final? That's not even accounting for secondary teams like Chicago, Colorado, Anaheim, Dallas, or Edmonton. All of which could make some noise under the right conditions.

Realistically, we should have gotten a 1st round pick if Karlsson re-signs, not a 2nd, and not a 1st if they make the cup final. That's the worst part of the trade for me, because I can listen to guys like Bob McKenzie tell me how soft offers were for Karl as a rental and maybe justify to myself that if we were going to trade Karlsson, this is where the market was at for a year of him. But I can't imagine how the difference between 1 year of Karlsson and 8-9 years of Karlsson is only a future 2nd round pick.

I understand anything can happen. I just wasn't sure what you meant when you said "statistical longshot". It made it sound like San Jose wasn't really viewed as a threat.

But in the prism of "anything can happen in the playoffs" then yes there's definitely many hundreds of different scenarios that could unfold.

Obviously we weren't privy to the negotiations but I don't see a lot of deals with a conditional first if the guy signs, especially when that deal is done in the preseason and the pick is for the following year without lottery protection.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Dude, it's a retool. None of those guys were in the long term plans. There is not a fan out there who wanted to hold on to P9 as one of our core, Methot was picked in an expansion draft, and Turris was about commend a lot more money and term than he was worth. Hoffman's situation leading to MB should not be part of this really, but getting a solid middle six player back over some lame picks is better in my mind.

The truth is that Duchene is so much better than Turris, Gaborik isn't really on the team and has little to do with our future plans, and we have a bunch of young kids looking to crack the roster spots left by the injury prone Method (who most loved) and a slowing P9 (that most wanted dumped at all costs).

As a team looking at the future we are so much better situated than you are prepared to give credit for. Not having a first next year is fine when you consider that we have a real living #1 centre instead. As long as we can sign our big three we have a pretty sweet up and coming line up to join our pretty special top three players.

It's not a rebuild, we're not picking last net year, it's a retool, and we have some awesome young players coming on board.

Sorry guys just came by for the schadenfreude. We have one of these defend the organization above all else guys too. The must go to the same dealer or something.

 

[Agent Zub]

People keep saying how good of a scout Dorion is but I'm extremely sceptical.

The dude made his fame from Karlsson and our other Swedish picks but he isn't really the one who picked up on them.

It was our Swedish scout who convinced Dorion, who in turn convinced Murray. Dorion was just the middle man.

Anyway you'd think that SOME, no matter how miniscule, ability he had of scouting would translate to pro scouting. But no, Dorion has shown fundamental inability to Target good players. The Burrows trade? Jeesus f***, you didn't need to be a pro scout to know that Burrows was done.

Instead not only does Dorion give up a top prospect he also was the only one in the market for Burrows because he was the only one willing to give him 2.5 million to float.


DORION IS NOT A GOOD SCOUT. DORION DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HOCKEY.

Prove to me otherwise.

@swiftwin

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I understand anything can happen. I just wasn't sure what you meant when you said "statistical longshot". It made it sound like San Jose wasn't really viewed as a threat.

But in the prism of "anything can happen in the playoffs" then yes there's definitely many hundreds of different scenarios that could unfold.

Obviously we weren't privy to the negotiations but I don't see a lot of deals with a conditional first if the guy signs, especially when that deal is done in the preseason and the pick is for the following year without lottery protection.

"Anything can happen" isn't the central point of my argument. When you say 100s of scenarios can fold out, it sounds to me like you are trying to ignore what I actually wrote and frame my points and argument as being absurd.

If that wasn't you're intention, it is what it is, but that's how it comes across.

 

[Alex1234]

It's not even entirely about being the best. The best teams don't always make it the deepest in the playoffs. We should know that because we certainly weren't the 2nd best team in the East in the 16-17 season, yet we made it to a goal away from the Cup final. There's a lot of luck involved, getting the right match ups, guys either staying or not staying healthy.

There's just so many exceptional teams as well, so it's very difficult to point at one team and say "they'll be in the Cup final".

Sure

Just pointing that nashville and Winnipeg are top favourites to go to final imho

 

[BankStreetParade]

"Anything can happen" isn't the central point of my argument. When you say 100s of scenarios can fold out, it sounds to me like you are trying to ignore what I actually wrote and frame my points and argument as being absurd.

If that wasn't you're intention, it is what it is, but that's how it comes across.

Nope, not at all.

Witness Vegas getting to the finals last year. In my mind, that's literally the definition of anything can happen. I would say the Sharks are a favourite in the West but honestly who knows what will transpire over the course of an entire season.

But that's not really the gist of the discussion we're having. The idea was to discuss the part of the trade surrounding that second round pick that could conditionally turn into a first.

I still think an unprotected first round pick a year removed from this upcoming season holds too much value to say that would be the price to attach to a guy potentially signing an extension. I don't think I've ever seen that before but this is a very specific situation too so who knows what the comparables are.

 

[swiftwin]

People keep saying how good of a scout Dorion is but I'm extremely sceptical.

The dude made his fame from Karlsson and our other Swedish picks but he isn't really the one who picked up on them.

It was our Swedish scout who convinced Dorion, who in turn convinced Murray. Dorion was just the middle man.

Anyway you'd think that SOME, no matter how miniscule, ability he had of scouting would translate to pro scouting. But no, Dorion has shown fundamental inability to Target good players. The Burrows trade? Jeesus ****, you didn't need to be a pro scout to know that Burrows was done.

Instead not only does Dorion give up a top prospect he also was the only one in the market for Burrows because he was the only one willing to give him 2.5 million to float.


DORION IS NOT A GOOD SCOUT. DORION DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HOCKEY.

Prove to me otherwise.

@swiftwin

--July 2007 - Dorion was hired as chief amateur scout---
2008 1st round (15th overall) - Erik Karlsson
2009 5th round (130th overall) - Mike Hoffman
2010 6th round (178th overall) - Mark Stone
2011 7th round (204th overall) - Ryan Dzingel

Find me a team that has done better with late picks in as short of a period of time at Dorion did after he got hired. I'm not sure what your vendetta is, and why you're trying to revise history.

 

[BonkTastic]

--July 2007 - Dorion was hired as chief amateur scout---
2008 1st round (15th overall) - Erik Karlsson
2009 5th round (130th overall) - Mike Hoffman
2010 6th round (178th overall) - Mark Stone
2011 7th round (204th overall) - Ryan Dzingel

Find me a team that has done better with late picks in as short of a period of time at Dorion did after he got hired.

Pretty much this.

Dorion is allowed to be a terrible GM and a great amateur scout at the same time. His work as an awful GM doesn't invalidate his work before he was given the big job.

 

[BondraTime]

Pretty much this.

Dorion is allowed to be a terrible GM and a great amateur scout at the same time. His work as an awful GM doesn't invalidate his work before he was given the big job.

Yeah, played a big part in our great drafting.

Obviously not a good GM, but definitely a good amateur scout

 

[swiftwin]

Pretty much this.

Dorion is allowed to be a terrible GM and a great amateur scout at the same time. His work as an awful GM doesn't invalidate his work before he was given the big job.

Exactly. Not only that, but you can't simultaneously refuse to praise him for the draft picks because "he wasn't actually scouting, he was just managing the scouts", and give him shit for the trades as GM even though he wasn't the pro scout. That's a deranged double standard.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Sorry guys just came by for the schadenfreude. We have one of these defend the organization above all else guys too. The must go to the same dealer or something.

You came here from what ever hole you live in just to diss me? I'm flattered!

 

[Agent Zub]

Exactly. Not only that, but you can't simultaneously refuse to praise him for the draft picks because "he wasn't actually scouting, he was just managing the scouts", and give him **** for the trades as GM even though he wasn't the pro scout. That's a deranged double standard.

Do you really think that GMs don't watch NHL players that they are trading for?

 

[sens13]

Just saw this on reddit.



Damn, dorion. close your mouth.

Edit: click on the link. people are speculating that dorion was behind that burner account that used to support the sens.

 

[swiftwin]

Do you really think that GMs don't watch NHL players that they are trading for?

woooooosh

 

[Canadian Time]

Just saw this on reddit.



Damn, dorion. close your mouth.

Edit: click on the link. people are speculating that dorion was behind that burner account that used to support the sens.

Social media has become the bane of normal discourse, everyone has a conspiracy theory. Simply write 180 charqacters about anything that pops in your mind and it's taken as truth.

 

[Agent Zub]

woooooosh

I'm not even saying that Dorion didn't play a part in Karlsson, buy I can guarantee you that our Swedish scout did the majority of the leg work. And Dorion has been living in the glow of that pick ever since.


Furthermore we've managed 3 stars in the last 10 -12 years of drafting. Is that really so amazing?

I could find you a dozen teams who have better track records.

We're good in late rounds, but we aren't as good of a scouting team as people like to think.

Truly great scouting teams were us in the late 90s, or Tampa and Anaheim recently.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

--July 2007 - Dorion was hired as chief amateur scout---
2008 1st round (15th overall) - Erik Karlsson
2009 5th round (130th overall) - Mike Hoffman
2010 6th round (178th overall) - Mark Stone
2011 7th round (204th overall) - Ryan Dzingel

Find me a team that has done better with late picks in as short of a period of time at Dorion did after he got hired. I'm not sure what your vendetta is, and why you're trying to revise history.

Karlsson was Forsberg's pick and Stone was Lowes' pick.

Dorion also oversaw the 2011 draft where he basically whiffed on all but one of 4 top 60 picks.

He's an average scout. The best pick he was probably directly responsible for was Pageau.

Loads of teams do as well as what you listed. Look at Nashville, Anaheim, and St Louis.

Between 08 and 13 Anaheim drafted Gardiner, Schultz, Vatanen, Palmieri, Fowler, Smith-Pelley, Rakell, Gibson, W Karlsson, Josh Manson, Lindholm and Freddie Andersen.