The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part II

[Burrowsaurus]

That team has nothing except cap space. And Carey Price.

We are in much, much better position than MTL going forward.

you know were trying to trade erik karlsson right

 

[BatherSeason]

Why not? Dorion is a great evaluator or talent, but that doesnt make him a great GM.

If you’re happy with him, that’s fine, but not everyone is.

Is he though?? Do we even know this? Obviously his evaluation on Condon, Burrows, Oduya, Thompson, Harpur, Ceci, Dumont, etc, has been terrible. Don't blame the coach here, Dorion is the guy who has final say, he brought in these guys. Not sure he is as great an "evaluator" as the Ottawa media tries to sell him as.

 

[Tuna99]

Is he though?? Do we even know this? Obviously his evaluation on Burrows, Oduya, Thompson, Harpur, Ceci, Dumont, etc, has been terrible. Don't blame the coach here, Dorion is the guy who has final say, he brought in these guys. Not sure he is as great an "evaluator" as the Ottawa media tries to sell him as.

Ottawa needs to find a steal / diamond in the rough - luck plays a big part in this. Dorion will look like a genius if he finds the next stud off of waivers or in FA.

We need a gift from the hockey gods like a Marty St Louis, Dominik Hasek, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavel Datsuyk, Ed Belfour. All these teams were turned around by 1 player becoming elite. Ottawa needs that now.

 

[BatherSeason]

Ottawa needs to find a steal / diamond in the rough - luck plays a big part in this. Dorion will look like a genius if he finds the next stud off of waivers or in FA.

We need a gift from the hockey gods like a Marty St Louis, Dominik Hasek, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavel Datsuyk, Ed Belfour. All these teams were turned around by 1 player becoming elite. Ottawa needs that now.

We already have those types of players, too bad our GM and owner don't see it that way. We have Hoff (diamond in the rough), EK, Duchene, Stone (diamond in the rough), Chabot. These are the guys you build a contender around.

We also need a goaltender who can stop the puck.

 

[Micklebot]

ya this is how i saw it too....the dollars and structure in Oduya's contract seem to make that clear. If the plan was to play him top 4...why would you sign him to an incentive heavy deal if your plan was he would reach all of the incentives. Johnny was used far more than the initial plan for his usage and in the end it showed he couldn't really handle it anymore.

claesson and harpur were the guys they needed more from

Don't forget Chabot. Pretty sure going into the season, Dorion thought Chabot would be playing in Ottawa not Belleville. Three guys, any one of which plays in the top 4 and there is no need for Oduya (assuming everyone is healthy).

 

[bert]

Dorion is a horrid pro talent evaluator. Great amateur scout though, he should stick to that.

 

[Zorf]

Summary of Ottawa's trades this year:
Turris + Brassard + Phaneuf +Thompson + '19 1st + Bowers + '19 3rd + '18 3rd + Dido + Hammond for Duchene + Gaborik + '18 Pit 1st + Gustavsson + Pit '19 3rd + CLB '20 3rd + Moutrey + Pokka + CGY '19 7th + 25% of Phaneufs contract.

Essentially boils down to Turris+Brassard+Phaneuf+'19 1st + Bowers for Duchene+Gaborik+Pit '18 1st +Gustavsson.

Take out the Phaneuf trade and Turris+Brassard+'19 1st+Bowers for Duchene+ Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson

Again essentially Turris+Brass+ for Duchene as depending where they finish next year, Ott '19 1st + Bowers > then Pit '18 1st + Gustavsson, could be >> if its a lottery pick.
As good as Duchene is that looks ugly. We'll have to see if the Sens can re-sign him and what their pick Colorado gets turns into.

We got Michalek as part of the Spezza trade, and Michalek was sent to Toronto as part of the Dion trade to Ottawa, so essentially, we traded Spezza, Michalek, Dion, Cowen, Greening, Turris, Brassard, picks/prospects for Duchene + Gustavsson.

SENS GOT HOSED!

EVERYONE BURN EVERYTHING!

SOMEONE PUNCH YASHIN IN THE PILLS!

ALFREDSSON HAS JOINED THE FRONT OFFICE ONLY TO QUIT FOR A THIRD TIME!

IT'S PANDEMONIUM IN THE RING! OH MY! TRIPLE H JUST GOT BUSTED ON THE HEAD WITH A STEEL CHAIR!

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

We got Michalek as part of the Spezza trade, and Michalek was sent to Toronto as part of the Dion trade to Ottawa, so essentially, we traded Spezza, Michalek, Dion, Cowen, Greening, Turris, Brassard, picks/prospects for Duchene + Gustavsson.

SENS GOT HOSED!

EVERYONE BURN EVERYTHING!

SOMEONE PUNCH YASHIN IN THE PILLS!

ALFREDSSON HAS JOINED THE FRONT OFFICE ONLY TO QUIT FOR A THIRD TIME!

IT'S PANDEMONIUM IN THE RING! OH MY! TRIPLE H JUST GOT BUSTED ON THE HEAD WITH A STEEL CHAIR!

We got Michalek from Heatley, but anyway..

 

[swiftwin]

Dorion is a horrid pro talent evaluator. Great amateur scout though, he should stick to that.

I'd say Duchene has been pretty good.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Ottawa needs to find a steal / diamond in the rough - luck plays a big part in this. Dorion will look like a genius if he finds the next stud off of waivers or in FA.

We need a gift from the hockey gods like a Marty St Louis, Dominik Hasek, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavel Datsuyk, Ed Belfour. All these teams were turned around by 1 player becoming elite. Ottawa needs that now.

we got ours.... mark stone. ( maybe batherson?)cant have these guys every draft... especially when our scouting team is so small

 

[bert]

I'd say Duchene has been pretty good.

Sure hes been good but not for the price that was paid. Hence the bad talent evaluator. It's relative.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Is he though?? Do we even know this? Obviously his evaluation on Condon, Burrows, Oduya, Thompson, Harpur, Ceci, Dumont, etc, has been terrible. Don't blame the coach here, Dorion is the guy who has final say, he brought in these guys. Not sure he is as great an "evaluator" as the Ottawa media tries to sell him as.

I meant in terms of his scouting background.

 

[BatherSeason]

I meant in terms of his scouting background.

But what is his scouting background, what makes him such a good evaluator of talent at the junior level?? Shouldn't the best Junior scouts in the world be able to identify pro talent as well??

I know he scouted for the Habs and the Rangers before being named head scout here. Do we even know if he did a good job? All we know is that he probably came at a discounted price for every position he held here, which automatically makes him good at his job in Eugene Melnyk's eyes.

The only article I found is from the organization's biggest cheerleader in Bruce Garrioch:

Ottawa Senators GM Pierre Dorion follows in footsteps of his late father

This article is littered with quotes from Dorion himself, his mother and a high school buddy. No former colleagues, no former GMs, nothing. For all we know, Shawn Simpson would have been more qualified for the job. Its not like Dorion had to go through an extensive interview process here either.

My point is that we only think he is "a good talent evaluator" because that's what the media has told us. This is a big year for Dorion, his two first round picks are going to tell us a lot in terms of how good he is at identifying junior talent, especially since he has done most of the scouting himself seeing as we have no scouts.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'd say Duchene has been pretty good.

Wut? Pretty sure that is close to consensus across the NHL. He's a team Canada level forward. What Colorado got for Duchene Dorion will need to fight hard to get more for Karlsson.

1st rd pick 18/19
Bowers (1st rd 2017) C 53BU 16 g, 27 pts in 34 Games
Samuel Girard - NHL ready 19 y/o PMD
Vladislav Kamenev - 21 y/o A- or B+ level prospect ; Skilled forward with good size ;
2nd round pick 2018 Nashville
3rd round pick 2019 Ottawa
Andrew Hammond - AHL starter/NHL backup

+ Ottawa gave up a positive asset in Kyle Turris , who would very likely have returned a 1st + at the deadline. Lets say that's a 1st and a prospect or a 3rd round pick... Add that to What Ottawa gave up for 1 year + of Duchene .. pending resign or trade.

I like Duchene and I am glad he's on the Sens.. but that is quite a return.

Is Duchene worth 3 first round picks, 2 3rd round picks and Andrew Hammond ? (note assuming Ottawa held on to Turris and traded him for a 1st and a 3rd at the deadline)

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Wut? Pretty sure that is close to consensus across the NHL. He's a team Canada level forward. What Colorado got for Duchene Dorion will need to fight hard to get more for Karlsson.

1st rd pick 18/19
Bowers (1st rd 2017) C 53BU 16 g, 27 pts in 34 Games
Samuel Girard - NHL ready 19 y/o PMD
Vladislav Kamenev - 21 y/o A- or B+ level prospect ; Skilled forward with good size ;
2nd round pick 2018 Nashville
3rd round pick 2019 Ottawa
Andrew Hammond - AHL starter/NHL backup

+ Ottawa gave up a positive asset in Kyle Turris , who would very likely have returned a 1st + at the deadline. Lets say that's a 1st and a prospect or a 3rd round pick... Add that to What Ottawa gave up for 1 year + of Duchene .. pending resign or trade.

I like Duchene and I am glad he's on the Sens.. but that is quite a return.

Is Duchene worth 3 first round picks, 2 3rd round picks and Andrew Hammond ? (note assuming Ottawa held on to Turris and traded him for a 1st and a 3rd at the deadline)

worst thing for me is the timing of the trade... I mean there some huge red flags that this season was not going to go the same as last season, yet dorion still just kept lolly gagging along, calling into Team 1200, pumping his own tires, pumping the teams tires.. instead of actually addressing anything. he was completely blinded by "1 goal away". it simply was not the time to start trading prospects and first round picks unless it was for a top 2-3 d man.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

worst thing for me is the timing of the trade... I mean there some huge red flags that this season was not going to go the same as last season, yet dorion still just kept lolly gagging along, calling into Team 1200, pumping his own tires, pumping the teams tires.. instead of actually addressing anything. he was completely blinded by "1 goal away". it simply was not the time to start trading prospects and first round picks unless it was for a top 2-3 d man.

Absolutely overrated his D and his expectations on the Goal tending.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

That's kind of funny to consider as a possibility. In hindsight, I would happily have given up Claesson instead.

Did you miss the part about the 2019 1st round pick being given to the VGK to pass on the unprotected Methot, and have them select someone else ...... with the speculationit would have been Claesson?

Do you value keeping a (now) 32 year old Methot for this season and next, at $4.9 Million .......... over a younger 25 year old Claesson ( a RFA this year) plus the Senators 1st round pick this year?

 

[Micklebot]

Absolutely overrated his D and his expectations on the Goal tending.

I suspect at the time of the trade, he was hoping Karlsson would shake off the rust and be able to once again contribute on both sides of the ice, instead, Karlsson went into a scoring slump and continue his indifferent (that's being generous) defensive play.

I suspect at the time of the trade, Dorion expected one of his two goalies to snap out of their funk and provide league average quality tending.

I suspect at the time of the trade, Dorion saw the upgrading of Turris to Duchene as a move that would help improve the team, not send them into a downward spiral.

The team certainly had issues leading up to the trade. But many of the teams issues (not all) were reasonable to believe to be temporary and not systemic imo. Nobody should have believed this was the same team that played it's way through 3 rounds in the playoffs, but at the same time, I think it was reasonable to think this was a team that was and would continue to compete for a wild card spot. Making a trade to improve the team was likely seen as a way to try and secure that wildcard spot.

I'm critical of much of what Dorion's done, but going back to mid November, I'd have told you we should be improving the team, not tearing it down. I might have preferred we improve the backend over the #1 center (could we have gotten a top 4 LD for Bowers, a first and a third?) and I might have argued we gave up too much for what we got, but I think the pieces we moved were ones we could afford to move, and the goal of improving the team now was reasonable.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

you know were trying to trade erik karlsson right

Listening to offers is what GMs of all teams do. PD was not trying to trade Karlsson, if he was, he would be playing on another team.

Both PD and EK65 have publicly stated they want EK65 to stay in Ottawa.

 

[BondraTime]

But what is his scouting background, what makes him such a good evaluator of talent at the junior level?? Shouldn't the best Junior scouts in the world be able to identify pro talent as well??

I know he scouted for the Habs and the Rangers before being named head scout here. Do we even know if he did a good job? All we know is that he probably came at a discounted price for every position he held here, which automatically makes him good at his job in Eugene Melnyk's eyes.

The only article I found is from the organization's biggest cheerleader in Bruce Garrioch:

Ottawa Senators GM Pierre Dorion follows in footsteps of his late father

This article is littered with quotes from Dorion himself, his mother and a high school buddy. No former colleagues, no former GMs, nothing. For all we know, Shawn Simpson would have been more qualified for the job. Its not like Dorion had to go through an extensive interview process here either.

My point is that we only think he is "a good talent evaluator" because that's what the media has told us. This is a big year for Dorion, his two first round picks are going to tell us a lot in terms of how good he is at identifying junior talent, especially since he has done most of the scouting himself seeing as we have no scouts.

He's the best amateur scout the Sens have had, and was one of the best in the league, there is no questioning that aspect.

None of the bad things he's done as a GM is going to change that.

What are you even arguing here?

 

[BatherSeason]

He's the best amateur scout the Sens have had, and was one of the best in the league, there is no questioning that aspect.

THIS is what I am arguing. How do you know this to be true? I have been unable to find one quote anywhere to back this up, other than quotes from a high school buddy and his mom. How is this even measured? This just seems to be an opinion you have. I don't disagree with your opinion, just curious why he has this label as "great talent evaluator".

Are there any other amateur scouts who have become GMs in this league? I am honestly curious.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I suspect at the time of the trade, he was hoping Karlsson would shake off the rust and be able to once again contribute on both sides of the ice, instead, Karlsson went into a scoring slump and continue his indifferent (that's being generous) defensive play.

I suspect at the time of the trade, Dorion expected one of his two goalies to snap out of their funk and provide league average quality tending.

I suspect at the time of the trade, Dorion saw the upgrading of Turris to Duchene as a move that would help improve the team, not send them into a downward spiral.

The team certainly had issues leading up to the trade. But many of the teams issues (not all) were reasonable to believe to be temporary and not systemic imo. Nobody should have believed this was the same team that played it's way through 3 rounds in the playoffs, but at the same time, I think it was reasonable to think this was a team that was and would continue to compete for a wild card spot. Making a trade to improve the team was likely seen as a way to try and secure that wildcard spot.

I'm critical of much of what Dorion's done, but going back to mid November, I'd have told you we should be improving the team, not tearing it down. I might have preferred we improve the backend over the #1 center (could we have gotten a top 4 LD for Bowers, a first and a third?) and I might have argued we gave up too much for what we got, but I think the pieces we moved were ones we could afford to move, and the goal of improving the team now was reasonable.

Rational is good. My comment was more in hindsight. We end up with a good C , hopefully they can resign him or that he fits into whatever plan Mr. Dorion has. I think its fair to say it was a gamble and the gamble did not pay off.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Dorion is a horrid pro talent evaluator. Great amateur scout though, he should stick to that.

He may be a great amateur scout but there is only 1 of him, and he's a GM now with more limited scouting availability.
Fortunately he has a large staff of experience amateur and pro scou... ah right nevermind.

Sens
1 professional Chief scout
- 2 pro scouts reporting to him
1 amateur Chief scout
- 6 scouts NA reporting to him
- 1 Euro Scout

11 scouts

Leafs
1 Director of player evaluation to whom everyone reports
- director of US scouting
- director of eastern scouting
- director of western scouting
- director of european scouting
they have 12 amateur scouts reporting into these people

1 Director of Pro scouting
- 5 pro scouts reporting to him

23 scouts

Canucks have 19 various scouts
Habs have 22 scouts
Winnipeg have 20 scouts
Flames have 17 scouts
Oiler have 18 scouts

And the rest of our organization looks the same in comparison to the others.

 

[BondraTime]

THIS is what I am arguing. How do you know this to be true? I have been unable to find one quote anywhere to back this up, other than quotes from a high school buddy and his mom. How is this even measured? This just seems to be an opinion you have. I don't disagree with your opinion, just curious why he has this label as "great talent evaluator".

Because he has been a successful scout in the NHL since he was 22, took over our draft table in 2007 after we were the laughingstock of the league draft wise from 2004-2007 and helped turn us into the premier, or one of the premier teams on draft day for the next 7/8 years.

He also handpicked Trent Mann from obscurity, who is now one of the best scouts in the league.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Did you miss the part about the 2019 1st round pick being given to the VGK to pass on the unprotected Methot, and have them select someone else ...... with the speculationit would have been Claesson?

Do you value keeping a (now) 32 year old Methot for this season and next, at $4.9 Million .......... over a younger 25 year old Claesson ( a RFA this year) plus the Senators 1st round pick this year?

Plus a first rounder? No I missed that and no thanks. If it were one for one? hell yeah.