News Article: The Nylander Saga.

[Mess]

Its hard for anyone trying to be objective and also not be critical of Nylander's play and contribution come playoff time and come away disappointed and feeling the tight checking and physical style is not conducive to his preferred style of play, and he appears to check out rather than become a deciding factor when the going gets tough and his clean zone entries with possession are disrupted by neutral zone trapping opposition defensive systems.

His game is not very transferable to playoff style as its unlikely we're going to see him engage physically to win contested puck battles, or suddenly dump it in and then aggressively charge into the corners to win 50/50 puck battles while taking physical punishment to do so, when the rush attack is not available. Its simply not in his DNA and thus the reason he earns that soft perimeter player reputation as he prefers to avoid physical contact and stick check whenever possible.

In 25 playoff games (including last years play-in series) Willy has 5 goals in 25 games over 4 series.

2015-16 vs Washington ... 6 games 1 goal
2016-17 vs Boston ............... 7 games 1 goal
2018-19 vs Boston .............. 7 games 1 goal
2019-20 vs Columbus ..... 5 games 2 goals (1/2 his points in the entire series coming in that 3 minutes goalie out)

If Nylander on average is scoring 1 goal every 6-7 game playoff series in round #1 then he is part of the problem not the solution why Leafs are bowing out early. IMO

 

[Bomber0104]

Its hard for anyone trying to be objective and also not be critical of Nylander's play and contribution come playoff time and come away disappointed and feeling the tight checking and physical style is not conducive to his preferred style of play, and he appears to check out rather than become a deciding factor when the going gets tough and his clean zone entries with possession are disrupted by neutral zone trapping opposition.

In 25 playoff games (including last years play-in series) Willy has 5 goals in 25 games over 4 series.

2015-16 vs Washington ... 6 games 1 goal
2016-17 vs Boston ............... 7 games 1 goal
2018-19 vs Boston .............. 7 games 1 goal
2019-20 vs Columbus ..... 5 games 2 goals (1/2 his points in the entire series coming in that 3 minutes goalie out)

If Nylander on average is scoring 1 goal every 6-7 game playoff series in round #1 then he is part of the problem not the solution why Leafs are bowing out early. IMO

Actually he scored two goals in the 2018/19 Boston series.

One in their net, one in ours.

 

[ACC1224]

Its hard for anyone trying to be objective and also not be critical of Nylander's play and contribution come playoff time and come away disappointed and feeling the tight checking and physical style is not conducive to his preferred style of play, and he appears to check out rather than become a deciding factor when the going gets tough and his clean zone entries with possession are disrupted by neutral zone trapping opposition defensive systems.

His game is not very transferable to playoff style as its unlikely we're going to see him engage physically to win contested puck battles, or suddenly dump it in and then aggressively charge into the corners to 50/50 puck battles while taking physical punishment to do so when the rush attack is not available. Its simply not in his DNA and thus the reason he earns that soft perimeter player reputation as he prefers to avoid physical contact and stick check whenever possible.

In 25 playoff games (including last years play-in series) Willy has 5 goals in 25 games over 4 series.

2015-16 vs Washington ... 6 games 1 goal
2016-17 vs Boston ............... 7 games 1 goal
2018-19 vs Boston .............. 7 games 1 goal
2019-20 vs Columbus ..... 5 games 2 goals (1/2 his points in the entire series coming in that 3 minutes goalie out)

If Nylander on average is scoring 1 goal every 6-7 game playoff series in round #1 then he is part of the problem not the solution why Leafs are bowing out early. IMO

They have all underachieved to some degree, that's not just on Nylander.
You would expect a little more out of someone touted "one of the most talented Leafs ever" though.

 

[X66]

Its hard for anyone trying to be objective and also not be critical of Nylander's play and contribution come playoff time and come away disappointed and feeling the tight checking and physical style is not conducive to his preferred style of play, and he appears to check out rather than become a deciding factor when the going gets tough and his clean zone entries with possession are disrupted by neutral zone trapping opposition defensive systems.

His game is not very transferable to playoff style as its unlikely we're going to see him engage physically to win contested puck battles, or suddenly dump it in and then aggressively charge into the corners to win 50/50 puck battles while taking physical punishment to do so, when the rush attack is not available. Its simply not in his DNA and thus the reason he earns that soft perimeter player reputation as he prefers to avoid physical contact and stick check whenever possible.

In 25 playoff games (including last years play-in series) Willy has 5 goals in 25 games over 4 series.

2015-16 vs Washington ... 6 games 1 goal
2016-17 vs Boston ............... 7 games 1 goal
2018-19 vs Boston .............. 7 games 1 goal
2019-20 vs Columbus ..... 5 games 2 goals (1/2 his points in the entire series coming in that 3 minutes goalie out)

If Nylander on average is scoring 1 goal every 6-7 game playoff series in round #1 then he is part of the problem not the solution why Leafs are bowing out early. IMO

Nylander has put up 15 points in 25 playoffs games against literally 4 of the best defensive teams from the league those years, and last year was the only year he got top PP minutes.

That's a 50 point pace, against 4 amazing defensive teams.

That was an embarrassing post, Mess.

 

[Garthinater]

Nylander has put up 15 points in 25 playoffs games against literally 4 of the best defensive teams from the league those years, and last year was the only year he got top PP minutes.

That was an embarrassing post, Mess.

For "one of the most talented leafs ever" i thought you'd expect more than a 50 point pace rofl

 

[X66]

For "one of the most talented leafs ever" i thought you'd expect more than a 50 point pace rofl

You do realize the Caps, Bruins x2 and Columbus all were at the top of the league in terms of defence and goaltending?

50 point pace against that isn't anything to sleep on, especially when he's not getting top PP minutes.

Or is that too complex for you to understand?

 

[Garthinater]

You do realize the Caps, Bruins x2 and Columbus all were at the top of the league in terms of defence and goaltending?

50 point pace against that isn't anything to sleep on, especially when he's not getting top PP minutes.

Or is that too complex for you to understand?

If you think a 50 point pace is good for "one of the most talented leaf players ever", then you are completely hopeless.

Advanced stats only tell you so much. Thats why you guys have been wrong over and over again.

But please do go on and explain why anyone who doesn't buy into the advanced stats is a Neanderthal rofl

 

[IPS]

You do realize the Caps, Bruins x2 and Columbus all were at the top of the league in terms of defence and goaltending?

50 point pace against that isn't anything to sleep on, especially when he's not getting top PP minutes.

Or is that too complex for you to understand?

He was also stuck to the 3rd line with Brown and Marleau vs Boston in 2019 due to Kadri's suspension. Some people choose willful ignorance to push some dumb agenda instead of actually taking the time to understand things.

 

[IPS]

If you think a 50 point pace is good for "one of the most talented leaf players ever", then you are completely hopeless.

Talented players have never started out their career struggling in the playoffs? Mainly against super good defensive teams?

You do realize that outside of 1 series against Boston where Marner got the easy matchups, his production in the playoffs has been identical to Nylander's? Not to make this into a Marner thread but you 100% wouldn't apply the standard to him that you're applying to Nylander.

 

[Bomber0104]

For "one of the most talented leafs ever" i thought you'd expect more than a 50 point pace rofl

Better watch out, you're about to get called a Neanderthal who's halting the progress of civilization if you don't agree.

 

[IPS]

Forget Nylander and his alleged perimeter game.

Joe Thornton only managed 18 points in 35 playoff games to start his career, I wonder how many of these nitwits would run their agenda on him too.

 

[Garthinater]

Better watch out, you're about to get called a Neanderthal who's halting the progress of civilization if you don't agree.

@X66 is definitely off the deep end!

"Belive my stats or else I'm going to call you names" lol

There needs to be a minimum age to have an account. Would save us all a lot of hassle.

 

[Mess]

They have all underachieved to some degree, that's not just on Nylander.
You would expect a little more out of someone touted "one of the most talented Leafs ever" though.

Agreed.

When core players become passive aggressive passengers in tight checking hard hitting playoff series, it leaves them as underachievers and results in disappointing outcomes for the team as a result.

Zach Hyman can't be the only player in the top 6 expected to do all the heavy lifting, and aggressive forechecking and winning puck battles for the core 4.

Adding Wayne Simmonds to bang and crash on the 3rd and 4th lines isn't going to create a backbone in players like Nylander and others either. That is going to need to come from within in maturation and self improvement to become more effective and self sufficient, allowing their own games to evolve were they become leaders and not followers into battle when the going gets tough.

Keefe should lock players like Nylander and Marner into a room, force them to watch Brayden Point 2020 playoff highlight film, and then tell them using Nike's iconic "Just Do It" slogan, if they want to be successful contributors to Leafs playoff aspirations.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yes, he signed a 6 year contract in December that pays him just under 7m per season for 6 seasons, or 8.76% of the cap in his signing year. That is his valuation. Term is based on seasons, not how many games you play.

No amount of “deke spin” will change the fact that he wasn’t under contract for two months of that contract term. Those two months were subtracted out of his salary and aav. A player who wanted the Nylander contract and was willing to PLAY those two months would be paid for those two months. Why would they play those first two months for free?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

There is a group like that in every fanbase, but that's not the issue at all.

The bigger issue is the LARGE part of the fanbase that blatantly ignores stats and context when it comes to better understanding a player or the team.

We need a separate forum for those Neanderthals.

And whether it's on this forum or other social channels(Twitter etc) A LOT of Leafs fans still view Nylander through their Neanderthal lens.

How about a parallel site for the ones that only watch the stats before posting. I would prefer a adv stats only section and us Neanderthals can continue getting by on our instincts and senses like vision,hearing and smell for when you know something stinks. Communication used to be grunts and hand signals. We are progressing just fine. Now if you don’t mind i have to sweep the cave and start a fire for a mammoth supper. I got the munchies

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Nylander has put up 15 points in 25 playoffs games against literally 4 of the best defensive teams from the league those years, and last year was the only year he got top PP minutes.

That's a 50 point pace, against 4 amazing defensive teams.

That was an embarrassing post, Mess.

No it was not a embarrassing post for mess-at all. He has used stats. Apparently you don’t like stats now hummmm
Nylander has to compete nastier in the playoffs. Thats not a false slight on him. I think he is awesome and needs to get a chip on his shoulders and stop being do passive

 

[SeaOfBlue]

No amount of “deke spin” will change the fact that he wasn’t under contract for two months of that contract term. Those two months were subtracted out of his salary and aav. A player who wanted the Nylander contract and was willing to PLAY those two months would be paid for those two months. Why would they play those first two months for free?

Nylander's contract was structured so that he would not lose money for missing those two months. If this hypothetical player wanted the Nylander contract to a tee, he can sit for 2 months and then get paid 42 mill, as part of the agreement was for Nylander not to lose the 2 months worth of salary that he lost by sitting out. It's a separate stipulation.

That is not saying the Leafs would have had to pay Nylander 45 mill before the start of the year if they wanted to sign him. It just means that they would not have had the stipulation of not losing any money because he sat. Also, if this player decided to sign before the season, he'd get his signing bonuses and 2 months worth of salary earlier than Nylander, which is not playing for free. It's not getting significantly more money than Nylander given Nylander received that stipulation, but he gets 2 months worth of interest on his signing bonus and 1.5x interest on his total salary (I may have compounded wrong) he would make in that time.

A similar scenario would be the stipulation on Marner's contract regarding his rookie bonuses. You are effectively saying that had Marner received the rookie bonuses that he felt he deserved from the start, which is worth about 6 mill, then he still would have received 11 mill per year. Maybe that is true, I can't say for certain. However, those bonuses were specifically mentioned by Ferris as a huge strife for the Marner camp, and it is also possible that if the Leafs did not have to make up those bonuses to have a clean slate with their camp, they also would not have to pay Marner 11 mill per year on his current deal (rather, it would likely be a bit under 10 mill for 6 years, which is right in line for what Marner should likely be making right now).

Effectively, you don't view there being a stipulation in either case and their contract is their contract regardless of any kind of additional context that may not be inherently written in their contract but was negotiated and justifies the number they received. Others may consider that there may be additional context involved; Nylander receiving 42 mill under the stipulation that he did not lose out on money for sitting out and Marner received ~6 years with a 10 mill AAV + the stipulation where his 6 mill in bonuses (which is an additional 1 mill AAV per year) would be made up as well.

At this point we can't confirm or deny either viewpoint, but based on the evidence that has been released, I would say it is very clear that Dubas' MO was to have a clean slate with his young core players so that they do not have any additional strife with any ongoing contract negotiations.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

No it was not a embarrassing post for mess-at all. He has used stats. Apparently you don’t like stats now hummmm
Nylander has to compete nastier in the playoffs. Thats not a false slight on him. I think he is awesome and needs to get a chip on his shoulders and stop being do passive

There is a difference between using stats and using stats properly and with context.

For example, I could be a company generating a trillion dollars in revenue. Must be a great investment because they are generating so much revenue right? However if they have 2 trillion dollars in expenses and are constantly running a deficit, then suddenly it does not look so good. However that also may not be the case. Maybe they are growing, maybe they are just starting out and have not reached their profit threshold yet and everything is actually going as expected, etc. or maybe they are just a terribly run company that will likely go bankrupt in a year.

If look at one statistic or KPI and think that represents the entire scenario and ignore the rest of the context, then you are likely going to believe something that is drastically different than reality. Mess is often guilty of doing this.

 

[Notsince67]

Yes, we are smarter than the people that don't understand them.

But, the real problem is the unwillingness to learn it. That is when we don't progress as a civilization.

Yikes. This is hockey. Lighten up

 

[X66]

Yikes. This is hockey. Lighten up

It's a thought process.

You can pretty much infer how people are in real life based on their stances around here lol.

It's that easy!

 

[X66]

If look at one statistic or KPI and think that represents the entire scenario and ignore the rest of the context, then you are likely going to believe something that is drastically different than reality. Mess is often guilty of doing this.

KPI's to this group? That's gonna go right over some heads.

The only KPI that matters with them is how many Coors Lights you can pick up in one Beer Store run.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Nylander's contract was structured so that he would not lose money for missing those two months. If this hypothetical player wanted the Nylander contract to a tee, he can sit for 2 months and then get paid 42 mill, as part of the agreement was for Nylander not to lose the 2 months worth of salary that he lost by sitting out. It's a separate stipulation.


That is not saying the Leafs would have had to pay Nylander 45 mill before the start of the year if they wanted to sign him. It just means that they would not have had the stipulation of not losing any money because he sat. Also, if this player decided to sign before the season, he'd get his signing bonuses and 2 months worth of salary earlier than Nylander, which is not playing for free. It's not getting significantly more money than Nylander given Nylander received that stipulation, but he gets 2 months worth of interest on his signing bonus and 1.5x interest on his total salary (I may have compounded wrong) he would make in that time.

A similar scenario would be the stipulation on Marner's contract regarding his rookie bonuses. You are effectively saying that had Marner received the rookie bonuses that he felt he deserved from the start, which is worth about 6 mill, then he still would have received 11 mill per year. Maybe that is true, I can't say for certain. However, those bonuses were specifically mentioned by Ferris as a huge strife for the Marner camp, and it is also possible that if the Leafs did not have to make up those bonuses to have a clean slate with their camp, they also would not have to pay Marner 11 mill per year on his current deal (rather, it would likely be a bit under 10 mill for 6 years, which is right in line for what Marner should likely be making right now).

Effectively, you don't view there being a stipulation in either case and their contract is their contract regardless of any kind of additional context that may not be inherently written in their contract but was negotiated and justifies the number they received. Others may consider that there may be additional context involved; Nylander receiving 42 mill under the stipulation that he did not lose out on money for sitting out and Marner received ~6 years with a 10 mill AAV + the stipulation where his 6 mill in bonuses (which is an additional 1 mill AAV per year) would be made up as well.

At this point we can't confirm or deny either viewpoint, but based on the evidence that has been released, I would say it is very clear that Dubas' MO was to have a clean slate with his young core players so that they do not have any additional strife with any ongoing contract negotiations.

Yes, the hypothetical player has two options if he wanted the Nylander contract. Either make 45 mil over six FULL seasons, or 42 mil over 5.6 seasons. That's precisely what I'm arguing.

The "additional context" you're providing is just spin to try and rationalize the contract. This has nothing to do with Marner getting elc bonuses or not. This is about a player NOT under contract and, as such, NOT getting paid for those 2 months. you say Nylander is "made whole", but that's just due to structuring of signing bonuses and front loading... something someone who wanted the "nylander contract" would want as well. They would NOT just play those first 2 months for free. So they would be asking for the 45 mil/6 seasons. There's no real debate here. The contract is OFFICIALLY LISTED as 45mil/6 seasons. He lost two months of pay for sitting out.

Good god... the level of spin and mental gymnastics here. Me? I don't have to. It's this simple "Contract is officially listed as 45/6. Nylander lost 2 months pay for sitting out. The end."

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Wow this thread

 

[Gabriel426]

As long as the Leafs win the Cup, don’t really care how much these players make.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Yes, the hypothetical player has two options if he wanted the Nylander contract. Either make 45 mil over six FULL seasons, or 42 mil over 5.6 seasons. That's precisely what I'm arguing.

The "additional context" you're providing is just spin to try and rationalize the contract. This has nothing to do with Marner getting elc bonuses or not. This is about a player NOT under contract and, as such, NOT getting paid for those 2 months. you say Nylander is "made whole", but that's just due to structuring of signing bonuses and front loading... something someone who wanted the "nylander contract" would want as well. They would NOT just play those first 2 months for free. So they would be asking for the 45 mil/6 seasons. There's no real debate here. The contract is OFFICIALLY LISTED as 45mil/6 seasons. He lost two months of pay for sitting out.

Good god... the level of spin and mental gymnastics here. Me? I don't have to. It's this simple "Contract is officially listed as 45/6. Nylander lost 2 months pay for sitting out. The end."

It is pretty straight forward to me... Nylander sat for 2 months, they wanted to make sure he received the full contract as if he played for the entire year. If he played for the full year, there is no guarantee that he would have received more money. He just would not have had the stipulation that was included in this case since he was not going to lose any money for starting late.

Stipends like that happen all of the time in business and it life, but it is often a "use it or lose it" policy. So in terms of "why would he play 2 months for free?", he had a stipend offered to him (not necessarily offered to everyone) where he was able to get paid for the two months he did not play. That does not mean he can exchange that for more money if he did play those two months, just like he can't exchange a $5 off coupon for $5 in cash.

If other players want to find out of that stipend would be offered to them, they are welcome to sit for 2 months and find out.

Also, it is not "spinning", it is "framing". You are looking at it as the contract is listed at 45 mill/6 years, which is true. I am looking at it like he is getting paid at 42 mill/6 years, which is also true. You are looking at it more pessimistically, I am looking at it more optimistically, but it is the same set of facts. Spinning is when you look at negative events (i.e. We got swept in the playoffs) to try to make it sound overly positive (i.e. at least our players won't get hurt by playing more).