Rumor: The never-ending Myers rumors

[Jame]

It's about organizational depth and who can be flipped to really gain something. 4 ELC centermen affords an opportunity worth exploring, IMO.

ignoring the fact that centers can play wing... i don't recall you exploring any Ennis trades when he was playing center.

regardless, it's not about "organizational depth" until you know what you have. Trading from a depth of ELCs is stupid, when we have almost nothing established at the NHL level (aside from Myers who you are also trading).

 

[Jame]

But, moving Reinhart to get OEL is re-arranging the foundation while the cement is still wet.

nailed it

 

[stokes84]

I'd prefer OEL to Myers.

Now, if there was a way to swap OEL for Myers....I'd be for it. Let's do it today. Heck, I'd even add one of our late firsts to make that swap.

But,

Moving out reinhart at this juncture is robbing our center depth to improve our defense slightly.

Sure that's a good defense. But, remember when Nashville had Suter-Weber, Josi-Klein?...

They didn't have any centers or consistent offense. You're banking on Grigerenko becoming a consistent top 6 center and us getting one of McDavid/Eichel. Neither one of those is a sure thing.

If we are here in 3 years, Grigerenko is putting up 60 points a season, we have one of McDavid/Eichel and they are producing at franchise forward pace, Ok, maybe we look at moving out Reinhart to balance out or D.

But, moving Reinhart to get OEL is re-arranging the foundation while the cement is still wet.

Yes, I am banking on getting McEichel. So, McEichel and Girgensons are both top 6 centers, I am 100% confident in that. Grigorenko has to be able to play a 3C role. That is the only question IMO.

 

[stokes84]

ignoring the fact that centers can play wing... i don't recall you exploring any Ennis trades when he was playing center.

regardless, it's not about "organizational depth" until you know what you have. Trading from a depth of ELCs is stupid, when we have almost nothing established at the NHL level (aside from Myers who you are also trading).

What is the point of trading Ennis for the return he would get? You are being ridiculous.

 

[Jame]

What is the point of trading Ennis for the return he would get? You are being ridiculous.

it's nice to see that we agree on how little interest/value Ennis would have in trade

 

[Jim Bob]

Assuming we get McEichel, that gives us 4 ELC centermen. Flipping one for a no.1 defenseman is the essence of team building. McEichel is obviously not being traded. Grigorenko doesn't have enough value. So that leaves Girgensons and Reinhart as possible trade chips to get a no. 1. Of course, you have to believe in Grigorenko, or else he is a lost prospect.

Next year the Sabres would only have 3 ELC centers.

McEichel and Grigorenko will never be on an ELC at the same time.

 

[Jame]

Yes, I am banking on getting McEichel. So, McEichel and Girgensons are both top 6 centers, I am 100% confident in that. Grigorenko has to be able to play a 3C role. That is the only question IMO.

none of these guys could move to wing

let's keep all of them, and have a multitude of options if Grigorenko actually turns out.

Girgensons-Reinhart-McDavid
xxxx-Grigorenko-xxxx
xxxx-xxxx-xxxx

If Grigorenko actually turns out... then long term, I'd love to have a game dominant 1st line like the one above. Let Grigo handle the easy 2nd line/offensive minutes... and build a shut down line out of the remaining pieces (Compher, Lemiuex, Larsson, etc)

or

xxxx-Reinhart-McDavid
Girgensons-Grigorenko-xxxx
xxxx-xxxx-xxxx

or

xxxx-McDavid-Grigorenko
Girgensons-Reinhart-xxxx
xxxx-xxxx-xxxx

or

xxxx-McDavid-Grigorenko
xxxx-Reinhart-xxxx
xxxx-Girgensons-xxxx

or

xxxx-Reinhart-McDavid
xxxx-Grigorenko-xxxx
xxxx-Girgensons-xxxx

or

Girgensons-McDavid-xxxx
xxxx-Reinhart-xxxx
xxxx-Grigorenko-xxxx

and so on....

 

[stokes84]

Sure, or we could explore the idea of trading for a 24 year old, Norris calibre defenseman. Every Cup team has a defenseman like this. Otherwise, we are just praying Risto or Zadorov becomes that guy.

 

[sabrebuild]

How does trading Samson for OEL defeat the purpose of the rebuild?

Imagine this defense:

OEL- Risto
Zadorov - Myers
Gorges - Pysyk

Average age: 23.333 years old.

That's a pretty amazing defense moving forward.

And you still have three super talented ELC centermen in McEichel, Girgensons and Grigorenko.

Let's ignore the Reinhart for OEL good idea bad idea argument. Fine you did that, however trading Myers for Dekeyser is beyond idiotic and pulkinnen is a dime a dozen. How bout you just not do that deal at all, and instead of getting a ***** hoping that Risto and Zadorov turn out to create that amazing defense you just keep Myers and have a sick defense whether the young guys reach their potential or not. And when you find that out in a year or two, then you can move another piece.

This is the problem with the idea that we just get rid of one great player and replace him with the other, people did the same thing with Vanek. You need several great players.

I just can't get over that you think that Myers trade is not just a fair trade, but that is your pipe dream. Do you know what a pipe dream is? It's a reach for the stars will never actually get it but one can dream type situation. Your pipe dream is a crap sandwich that make Holland giggle like a school girl for three hours in his office until his secretary brings him lunch, sees the condition he is in, drops the food in a panic and calls paramedics because it looks like he is having a joy seizure.

 

[Djp]

If OEL was traded for myers--wht is the difference between them?

If buffalo had Mceichel, Phoenix picks 3rd and gets Hanifin--would you trade Reinhart for OEL?

 

[Jim Bob]

The kind of overpayment I would expect Arizona to want for OEL is something like Reinhart AND Zadorov or Ristolainen for OEL.

I don't think it's even worth contemplating.

 

[Jame]

Sure, or we could explore the idea of trading for a 24 year old, Norris calibre defenseman. Every Cup team has a defenseman like this. Otherwise, we are just praying Risto or Zadorov becomes that guy.

right, because a 24 year old Myers has no chance (while objectively performing at the same level as OEL this season)

 

[sabrebuild]

The kind of overpayment I would expect Arizona to want for OEL is something like Reinhart AND Zadorov or Ristolainen for OEL.

I don't think it's even worth contemplating.

Similar to Myers, OEL will cost a brutal amount, and Reinhart would just be a part of the cost.

It would also be one of the few times in league history a 2nd overall pick was traded before they ever touched the ice. Usually those deals don't work out great, hi Boston and Toronto.

 

[stokes84]

Let's ignore the Reinhart for OEL good idea bad idea argument. Fine you did that, however trading Myers for Dekeyser is beyond idiotic and pulkinnen is a dime a dozen. How bout you just not do that deal at all, and instead of getting a ***** hoping that Risto and Zadorov turn out to create that amazing defense you just keep Myers and have a sick defense whether the young guys reach their potential or not. And when you find that out in a year or two, then you can move another piece.

This is the problem with the idea that we just get rid of one great player and replace him with the other, people did the same thing with Vanek. You need several great players.

I just can't get over that you think that Myers trade is not just a fair trade, but that is your pipe dream. Do you know what a pipe dream is? It's a reach for the stars will never actually get it but one can dream type situation. Your pipe dream is a crap sandwich that make Holland giggle like a school girl for three hours in his office until his secretary brings him lunch, sees the condition he is in, drops the food in a panic and calls paramedics because it looks like he is having a joy seizure.

The disconnect is that I don't think Myers is a great player. I think he's OK, but look at any cup winning team. Their top defenseman blows Myers out of the water. We need to do better.

 

[stokes84]

right, because a 24 year old Myers has no chance (while objectively performing at the same level as OEL this season)

Correct until you went to parentheses.

 

[Jame]

The disconnect is that I don't think Myers is a great player. I think he's OK, but look at any cup winning team. Their top defenseman blows Myers out of the water. We need to do better.

i cant wait for McReinchel to develop here, and watch your narrative on Myers slowly change from "i dont think myers is that great" to "he plays around great players"

 

[Jame]

Correct until you went to parentheses.

introduce something besides "OEL is much better than Myers". Until then, objectively, the data shows very little difference between the 2 in the present.

Similar age/state of development
Both are in bad team situations (although Myers is significantly worse)
Both perform similar roles, minutes
Myers has tougher competition, weaker teammates, tougher situations
OEL is a better offensively
Myers is better defensively
overall, their impact (gf/ga on ice diff) is about the same

You can wave the "just watch" flag all you want. I watch, and I validate.

 

[stokes84]

introduce something besides "OEL is much better than Myers". Until then, objectively, the data shows very little difference between the 2 in the present.

OEL is a better offensively
Myers is better defensively


You can wave the "just watch" flag all you want. I watch, and I validate.

You lack context in your judgment. This has already been pointed out to you.

 

[Jame]

You lack context in your judgment. This has already been pointed out to you.

context was provided.
your attempt at a save percentage based distraction was dealt with.

still waiting for your "anything" based argument as it lacks context, facts, data, measures of any kind.

 

[sabrebuild]

i cant wait for McReinchel to develop here, and watch your narrative on Myers slowly change from "i dont think myers is that great" to "he plays around great players"

It's the lack of vision for what players do in different situations that is both amazing and frustrating here. OMG winning streak, my mind changed, OMG losing streak, my mind changed. OMG I should change my mind because new information... No, nothing new is happening. It's like an endless argument about weather vs climate. One is unpredictable and the other is predictable over a long stretch of evidence.

Points and wins are all that matters to some people, which is hilarious because Myers is basically the only reason this junk team wins when they do every once in a while, and he is on pace for over 20 points on a historically bad offensive team. Average guys don't make Strachan look decent. Average guys don't do any of the things Myers has done this season. I can't wait for next season.

 

[stokes84]

context was provided.
your attempt at a save percentage based distraction was dealt with.

still waiting for your "anything" based argument as it lacks context, facts, data, measures of any kind.

Really, it wasnt.

 

[TehDoak]

 

[stokes84]

It's the lack of vision for what players do in different situations that is both amazing and frustrating here. OMG winning streak, my mind changed, OMG losing streak, my mind changed. OMG I should change my mind because new information... No, nothing new is happening. It's like an endless argument about weather vs climate. One is unpredictable and the other is predictable over a long stretch of evidence.

Points and wins are all that matters to some people, which is hilarious because Myers is basically the only reason this junk team wins when they do every once in a while, and he is on pace for over 20 points on a historically bad offensive team. Average guys don't make Strachan look decent. Average guys don't do any of the things Myers has done this season. I can't wait for next season.

It is true. I can't believe I fell into the trap that a nice run by Myers led me into. We already had so much info to know that he's one of the most inconsistent players in the league.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

This is OEL's worst GA season of his career and one of Myers' best. We haven't had the better defensive player over their careers.

The Reinhart for OEL talk is just creating a hypothetical where the team loses its leverage in Myers negotiations so we have to trade him for the "fan who is down on Myers as a player" value package.

 

[Samsonite23]

It is true. I can't believe I fell into the trap that a nice run by Myers led me into. We already had so much info to know that he's one of the most inconsistent players in the league.

that is one of the worst hyperboles I've ever come across.