- Apr 25, 2006
- 49,539
- 52,681
You know he was just like one. That's like saying that Soderberg wasn't an UFA when he signed with the AVS.
The money was NOT wisely spent
- Thread starter Balthazar
- Start date
You know he was just like one. That's like saying that Soderberg wasn't an UFA when he signed with the AVS.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
A little different situation. One had a year left, one had a day left. O'Reilly wasn't a free agent, he never hit the market. And fine, Soderberg wasn't a FA then, I have no issues with saying that.
I kind of agree. He'll put up the points and goals, but he isn't the type of player that can turn a game around. For a team like the Avs, that's what they need. If we only had one player like Iggy, that's different. But we have Tanguay, Comeau, Soderberg who are all 'luxury' players in a sense.
Not only that, their inexperience showed during last years free agency. They specifically targetted Comeau, thinking he was the only player in their price range. Then we see players like Ward and Williams go for way under what their unexpected value was.
I mean it's easy to make an excuse saying no one could predict the market was going to be this crappy for FA's this year, but that's their job. Other GM's figured it out, ours didn't.
Iceberg
Registered User
- May 4, 2002
- 4,784
- 1,118
All this "Stastny didn't want to be here" is fascinating, LOL.
I'm sure had we paid him the money STL did he would be here. He was coming off his best season after a while, he had great chemistry with Landeskog and MacKinnon, and by all accounts was more than happy leaving in Denver, and the team was finally trending in the right direction.
ROR was never valued by management as others, you watch Avs games and you would never see ROR's face on any team promos on Altitude, it was always about Duchene, Landeskog and Stastny.
After he lead the team in points and having his best season, the team didn't fell confortable enough to give him a long term deal.
When Roy took over and the team drafted MacKinnon, it was him moved to the wing despiste having outplayed Stastny the previous two seasons.
So, i don't blame the ROR fiasco on Sakic alone, although i don't think he and Roy did enough to change the relationship between the player and the organization.
And thats how we ended up losing one of the best two-way centers in the game entering his prime, and setting ourselves back a few years.
I'm sure had we paid him the money STL did he would be here. He was coming off his best season after a while, he had great chemistry with Landeskog and MacKinnon, and by all accounts was more than happy leaving in Denver, and the team was finally trending in the right direction.
ROR was never valued by management as others, you watch Avs games and you would never see ROR's face on any team promos on Altitude, it was always about Duchene, Landeskog and Stastny.
After he lead the team in points and having his best season, the team didn't fell confortable enough to give him a long term deal.
When Roy took over and the team drafted MacKinnon, it was him moved to the wing despiste having outplayed Stastny the previous two seasons.
So, i don't blame the ROR fiasco on Sakic alone, although i don't think he and Roy did enough to change the relationship between the player and the organization.
And thats how we ended up losing one of the best two-way centers in the game entering his prime, and setting ourselves back a few years.
Avs have not mismanaged the cap IMO. Teams like Philly and Columbus most certainly have if you want examples. This team has a fairly low payroll and no truly awful contracts on the level of David Clarkson or Dennis Wideman. Yes, they've made some bad mistakes (no argument at this point that Stuart's acquisition and extension was anything other than a monumental blunder) but nothing that's mortgaged the future of this franchise.
But yeah, I'd say if there's anything that could be construed as money not well spent, it was the Iginla signing. This team was/is obviously not ready for contention, and that's the kind of player you add when you're ready to be a contender. The days of Iggy as a true top-line player are long since behind him. The only way that deal gets salvaged is next year if the Avs somehow get a lot of young pieces producing at a decent pace, thereby allowing him to take a complementary scoring role. Signing a player like Iginla isn't really ever a "mistake" but this is definitely a bad fit for him. I feel bad because he could have, and should have signed elsewhere to get that elusive Cup. Avs management obviously had higher expectations of him and themselves, and they obviously misread things entirely in this instance.
I have a lot of issues with this team at present, most notably the coaching. But I'm okay with the management thus far. There was a time when this team was capped out, tanking in the standings with an old roster, two career backups doing a horrendous job in net, a coach way in over his head, and nothing really to speak of in the farm system. Right now I'd say only one of those things is true.
But yeah, I'd say if there's anything that could be construed as money not well spent, it was the Iginla signing. This team was/is obviously not ready for contention, and that's the kind of player you add when you're ready to be a contender. The days of Iggy as a true top-line player are long since behind him. The only way that deal gets salvaged is next year if the Avs somehow get a lot of young pieces producing at a decent pace, thereby allowing him to take a complementary scoring role. Signing a player like Iginla isn't really ever a "mistake" but this is definitely a bad fit for him. I feel bad because he could have, and should have signed elsewhere to get that elusive Cup. Avs management obviously had higher expectations of him and themselves, and they obviously misread things entirely in this instance.
I have a lot of issues with this team at present, most notably the coaching. But I'm okay with the management thus far. There was a time when this team was capped out, tanking in the standings with an old roster, two career backups doing a horrendous job in net, a coach way in over his head, and nothing really to speak of in the farm system. Right now I'd say only one of those things is true.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
I don't feel bad for Iggy, he wanted stability and got it. Now he won't even waive to go somewhere else. Maybe winning isn't that big of a deal to him that everyone thinks it is.
Stastny didn't want to stay here. it wasn't about the money. he didn't want to play 3rd fiddle to duchene and Mackinnon. the instant mack was drafted the writing was on the wall for Paulie walrus. but of course its easier for the OP to blast the avs management instead of thinking critically...
I don't think that this is true at all.
If the Avs had made that 11th hour offer in October-December I think he'd still be an Av. It was at the end of the season that the FO started outwardly mentioning the MacK-Dutch down the middle stuff. If Stastny didn't want to stay, why would he bother mentioning considering taking a discount? No reason to do that publicly when he could just keep silent and stick to Sakic's "right to test FA" script.
Did his fiance ever open her business in Denver? I thought that was something that had been mentioned before Stastny left for StL.
It never sounded to me like Stastny was one foot out the door until almost the day FA opened.
No matter now, but it seems a shame to me that fans think he suffered through the worst years of Avs hockey, always representing the franchise superbly, but then wanted to leave when things had started looking up again.
- Apr 25, 2006
- 49,539
- 52,681
None of these UFA players will hurt the team long term (Soderberg being a possible exception) and no, there's no Clarkson/Lecavalier under contract. It's just that we have spent the money to win now while it's clear that we should have invested it to win later.
One thing for sure: when this core starts to contend (assuming it will), Iggy, Beauch and Stuart won't be around anymore. ROR, on the other hand, would have been.
I'm certain the Avs, if they had truly wanted to, could have kept Stastny. Sure he wanted to stay. Why not? The team was coming off a fantastic regular season run. But I also don't blame him one bit if he demanded something along the lines of market value and the team probably wasn't interested in paying quite that much.
Stazz seemed to imply that the Avs were not overly enthusiastic in their negotiations with him, and that's fine too. At that point I'm sure they were still trying like hell to keep O'Reilly, and signing Stastny almost assuredly would've meant one of MacKinnon/Duchene/O'Reilly was a goner, and even then there would've been a bad cap crunch.
The only thing I wish the Avs had done a little better is find a more suitable replacement for Stastny. Admittedly I'm not sure who that guy would've been, but I feel like they overlooked just how solid defensively #26 was and didn't do enough to really shore that up. It was clear Roy went into the following season with roughly the same gameplan he had the previous season without realizing the workhorse forward who took a majority of d-zone draws and took on some of the toughest defensive assignments wasn't there. One of many reasons why I think Roy has been a benefit for the franchise in some respects and not in others.
Stazz seemed to imply that the Avs were not overly enthusiastic in their negotiations with him, and that's fine too. At that point I'm sure they were still trying like hell to keep O'Reilly, and signing Stastny almost assuredly would've meant one of MacKinnon/Duchene/O'Reilly was a goner, and even then there would've been a bad cap crunch.
The only thing I wish the Avs had done a little better is find a more suitable replacement for Stastny. Admittedly I'm not sure who that guy would've been, but I feel like they overlooked just how solid defensively #26 was and didn't do enough to really shore that up. It was clear Roy went into the following season with roughly the same gameplan he had the previous season without realizing the workhorse forward who took a majority of d-zone draws and took on some of the toughest defensive assignments wasn't there. One of many reasons why I think Roy has been a benefit for the franchise in some respects and not in others.
I just think he doesn't want to move around his family anymore. If he didn't have his wife and kids he'd probably try to chase a cup. Next season he might go for it.
- Apr 25, 2006
- 49,539
- 52,681
It's not. "Stastny didn't want to stay" appears to be the typical made up stuff from fans who don't want to feel bad about him leaving. The reality is, after that promising 112pts season they (management) saw Mack and Duchene down the middle, thought Stastny was expandable and, more importantly, didn't want to pay him more than Duchene ("payout structure", remember?). They prefered to give the money to Iggy.
LieutenantDangle
Barry McKockner
so you're saying they were anticipating singing Iggy before they even made the decision to not pay stastny what he wanted? I'm confused
IIRC, Stastny's wife had a diamond/jewelry store and Denver was where their wedding was in the summer. He had roots in Denver and if the Avs offered him market value, hell even a bit below market value (say 6.8 mil) I think he would still be in an Avs uniform. Now I still don't believe Stastny is worth 7 mil, but he'd be closer to his value than combining all the junk we signed afterwards.
He only had his foot out the door when FA opened up because the negotiations didn't work out prior to. He knew that the Avs weren't going to up their offer, and he wasn't going to settle.
As of right now only six NHL teams (this is according to generalfanager.com) have lower payrolls than Colorado. And that has risen recently only because of injury callups. They were at one point around 27th. I realize this may be a bit nitpicky since the difference between capped-out and cap floor teams seems smaller than ever, but I'd argue the team has done more to fix long-term problems (or at least ATTEMPT to fix them) than they have with any sort of quick-fix solutions.
For instance, look how many free agents the team has brought in to boost the organization. Martinsen, Everberg, Noreau, Rendulic, etc. None of those guys are win-now acquisitions. They were brought in too improve organizational depth overall, and hopefully a couple of them turn into real, viable impact players. If you're talking about investing to win later, don't you think those are pretty good examples?
O'Reilly would have been a win-now and win-later investment. His contract with the Sabres is not only max money and term, it also has the dreaded buyout-proofing that came with the Clarkson deal. Sign him to that deal and you completely destroy the salary structure established with Duchene, Landeskog, Johnson, and Varlamov. Avs had a choice to do that or trade him for some pieces that are clearly more long-term investments. So far both Grigorenko and Zadorov are looking like they were worth it, but it's still early yet.
Again, I agree with you on Iginla. It was a mistake to sign a guy like that when your team simply isn't ready. I don't think the Beauchemin deal was bad though. He provides a decent option for the top pairing, but when this team is ready to contend (and I think it'll be sooner than you say it is), then he can provide a very good option for the 2nd/3rd pairing in the event a guy like, say, Bigras is playing a top pairing role. That's wishful thinking, I know, but he's been developing just fine so far. Beauchemin has a few good years left in him. Iggy doesn't. That's the difference.
- Apr 25, 2006
- 49,539
- 52,681
No I'm saying that instead of matching the offer for Stastny at 7M, they decided to spend the money on Iggy (5.3M) and then acquire and extend Stuart (3.6M).
BTW, anything nice I'm saying about Avs management will probably be taken back if they fail to sign Conner Bleackley.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Dater says they offered 6.75x3
I know nobody wants to believe Dater on that but want to believe him other stuff.
I believe it completely, but I believe they waited too long to do it.
Dater says they offered 6.75x3
I know nobody wants to believe Dater on that but want to believe him other stuff.
I actually do believe Dater on that. However...
Still only 3 years. Blues signed him to a 7 x 4. That extra year is worth 3-4 mil compared to the next contract he'd be signing.
swear this board is bi-polar
The last two years was all about people pinching dollars to save money and not "become another Chicago"
Now we are stupid for not blowing our wad on everyone that wants $7M/year
The Avs take the middle ground between the two extreme viewpoints and still get criticized.
Hindsight is so 20/20
The last two years was all about people pinching dollars to save money and not "become another Chicago"
Now we are stupid for not blowing our wad on everyone that wants $7M/year
The Avs take the middle ground between the two extreme viewpoints and still get criticized.
Hindsight is so 20/20
Jarey Curry
Avalanche of Makar
It's no secret signings/trades have gotten a lot worse since Sherman hasn't been in control.[/QUOTE]
With Sherman there would be no Iggy or Beauch.. Maybe some other guys or ROR with over the top salary and then they would be ****ed with Mac's and Barrie's resignings..
With Sherman there would be no Iggy or Beauch.. Maybe some other guys or ROR with over the top salary and then they would be ****ed with Mac's and Barrie's resignings..
Bender
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2002
- 17,320
- 8,574
Agreed. Not sure what people were expecting for $4.75M per year but he's been everything I was expecting and in some ways 'more'. He's got 12 points in 21 games played, playing often with wingers who aren't exactly lighting it up. He's still on pace for a 47 pt season and I like the way he plays regardless if it ain't always pretty. He's got some work to do on faceoffs but has been really good on PP Faceoffs.
Overall, considering the variety of players he's been put with so far, I'm pretty happy with him.
Sherman was the "capologist" of record when the Avs took to the ice with a big payroll in 2008 and proceeded to bottom out in the standings. He of course wasn't the GM of record of course but I don't see where you draw the conclusion he would be so much better than Sakic if given a freer hand. He definitely got a great goaltender in Varly but he also paid a high price with that 1st rounder.
How have the trades gotten so much worse under Sakic? Sherman didn't make the Tanguay/Sarich for O'Brien/Jones deal. Even though Tangs ain't doing so well this year no one could possibly argue that was a bad deal for the Avs. They basically recouped everything they gave up in the Brad Stuart trade...it's just too bad they still have Brad Stuart. And it's way too early to tell with the O'Reilly deal but there's no reason to believe Buffalo handed the Avs two busts thus far.
Sherman was also the GM of record when the Avs essentially booted Liles in favor of Hejda. Hejda was solid and all but that began the transformation of the Avs from a smaller, speedier team to a big, slow, lumbering, dump-and-chase squad. And of course, he signed Greg Zanon.
Ultimately it's hard IMO to definitively judge Sherman's tenure because we have absolutely NO idea just how much authority he actually had in day-to-day operations. We can kinda/sorta conclude he had little to do with the draft, but did for the most part orchestrate trades/signings and handled negotiations.
How have the trades gotten so much worse under Sakic? Sherman didn't make the Tanguay/Sarich for O'Brien/Jones deal. Even though Tangs ain't doing so well this year no one could possibly argue that was a bad deal for the Avs. They basically recouped everything they gave up in the Brad Stuart trade...it's just too bad they still have Brad Stuart. And it's way too early to tell with the O'Reilly deal but there's no reason to believe Buffalo handed the Avs two busts thus far.
Sherman was also the GM of record when the Avs essentially booted Liles in favor of Hejda. Hejda was solid and all but that began the transformation of the Avs from a smaller, speedier team to a big, slow, lumbering, dump-and-chase squad. And of course, he signed Greg Zanon.
Ultimately it's hard IMO to definitively judge Sherman's tenure because we have absolutely NO idea just how much authority he actually had in day-to-day operations. We can kinda/sorta conclude he had little to do with the draft, but did for the most part orchestrate trades/signings and handled negotiations.
Ad
Latest posts
-
-
Did Ovi carry the Capitals to the playoffs this year?- Latest: TheSmokingMan
-
