Injury Report: The lottery thread of misery and doom! 2023 edition

Bench

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What if they lowered UFA age to like 24 and eliminated the 8th year option for signing with your current team? I think it would make team building less dependent on the draft which is ultimately determined by luck. And make free agency much more exciting.

I will say, all the player movement in the NFL and how teams can rebound in a matter of 2-3 years makes the league more exciting as a fan. These decade long rebuilds that have a 3-4 year window and then lead right back to another 5 years of tweaking from franchises in the NHL is pretty brutal.

Like Florida appears to FINALLY be on their way this year, but holy smokes it's been a long, long haul for that team. Barkov was a #2 overall pick 10 damn years ago. From 2000 to 2015, the Panthers made the playoffs ONE time.

Without a little lottery luck, these rebuilds can take ages in the NHL.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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Yes since he was the head of scouting at the time and pivotal in what happened. He takes over as the Director of Amateur scouting in 87-88. The team quickly abandons the college free agent to plug holes gap and the draft takes off with Holland becoming Devellano's right-hand. When Rockstrom leaves he replaces him with Hakan Andersson. He brings in Jim Nill, he mentors Yzerman and teaches him everything he knows. Ken Holland is crucial to the success we had in the 90s and 00s. He was critical in the very foundation of the team. Keep in mind with Neil Smith leaving for New York, the 89 draft is run by Devellano and Holland, so he drafts the greatest draft class in NHL history.

Sorry, I know the example here is to pretend Holland dropped in after the first championship in the 90s. Ignoring that they were in a three headed system from the moment the ill-fated Yzerman to Ottawa trade. In 94-95 he is granted assistant GM title, but the roles are split as Ilitch is livid with the attempt. Ken Holland didn't fail upwards guys, he was the person who kept having the right answer for the Ilitch family.

Bad contracts to Michigan natives that could be marketed... Gee I wonder if there was some pressure. Again I get it. we would all go in throw down our sword pissed on the carpet and tell our boss over my dead body... No a part of why he had that job for so long was working within their parameters. Yes he had a blank check for some of it, but so did New York (94) and Toronto (nothing) but the results were different. He did get lucky with the people he hired finding gems in Zetterberg and Datsyuk. He did put too many eggs in the Suter basket while attempting to extend the bridge to hopefully figure out something up front. But the reality is we were going to hit that crash at some point. Nobody was going to avoid that. Abdelkader could have sat on IR for the last three years, who gives a ****. To be fair to Yzerman I am sure the savings on that mattered to his bosses and is a part of it as well.

These organizations don't come to one man. To have that kind of run you need a lot of people working and doing a great job. Ken Holland was and did for most of his tenure, that's why he is a member of the HHOF. It could have ended better, but it was unlikely to end well. If he pops smoke and goes upstairs in 10-11, do you think rebuild isn't coming on a similar timeline? Do you think the Ilitch family was trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg? Does Suter magically not standup Yzerman for his buddy and Minnesota? What were his actual cards. I get it I hate some of those contracts, but this is the cliff we were heading for out of the lockout. He even warned us about it, that 10 year rebuild isn't looking so different. I know but if he had blown it up in a way ownership wouldn't have allowed... Yeah see the circular part of that argument.



Yeah, I'm gonna say that Bowman and Devellano were more crucial to the success the Wings had in the 90s than Holland did as a scout. Hot take, I know.

And yes I absolutely see the circular part of your argument. Excuses excuses all around. When things were great before Kenny was GM, he was a major part of that. When things were crappy while he was GM, that wasn't really his fault because there were a lot of other people involved.

As I said in my previous post, I don't really spend a lot of time on Holland either way. But I understand why people are more prone to criticizing him as the franchise tries to dig out of the hole he left, versus being grateful for all the success he had before that. One is much. more present and tangible.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Yeah, I'm gonna say that Bowman and Devellano were more crucial to the success the Wings had in the 90s than Holland did as a scout. Hot take, I know.

And yes I absolutely see the circular part of your argument. Excuses excuses all around. When things were great before Kenny was GM, he was a major part of that. When things were crappy while he was GM, that wasn't really his fault because there were a lot of other people involved.

As I said in my previous post, I don't really spend a lot of time on Holland either way. But I understand why people are more prone to criticizing him as the franchise tries to dig out of the hole he left, versus being grateful for all the success he had before that. One is much. more present and tangible.

Most of this crowd also thinks we got crappy in 09, one of my favorite Winged Wheel Podcast mistakes in when they just list the last finals as the last time we were relevant. We had teams worth believing in 12 and 13 and shouldn't have been rebuilding in those years. It is really the series where Boston kicks our teeth in that this should start and it was refused from above.

I think he surrounded himself with a lot of talent. I was not a fan of Joe MacDonald or Tyler Wright. I do think those hurt him quite a bit. He was good at picking people out and those are probably his biggest failures in the front office in terms of guys I really thought hurt Holland at the end. I think MacDonald has done better in Dallas. But yes he got pillaged off-season after off-season. I thought he hired and developed talent well. My other big gripe with Holland was actually off-ice training. I think that could have prolonged it, but the element of luck was going to be massive and we needed to hit a Kucherov or one of the lower draft guys and it just didn't happen to do a second rebuild on the fly. Which would have made him the greatest GM in the history of the sport for the record.

For those that want rebuild date, it is after that Boston series that Devellano has said in interviews he and Holland recommended a rebuild to their bosses.
 
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heyfolks

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How about we do away with the draft altogether? The cap will stop a Yankees Wings hoarding of talent. Teams will pick up and sell big contracts at the deadline differently In fact, contract structure will change. Heck, do away with the entry level contract as well. Imagine the teams bidding for Bedard today, weighing this against having a full roster and being players in next years draft. Tanking would also end. Sure a team may clear out salary for a player like Bedard. Say they sign him to an 12x8 deal. By the time they build around him, that team will be locked out of the high dollar talent for years to come.


I know I know... BRILLIANT! LOL!

OK, beat it up.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I would like to go the NFL system, just pick in the order you finish. I would have a slot after each playoff round too in terms of the fix for this. Do the first round elimination teams by regular season record, second round, conference finals etc.

You want to tank to the bottom for the #1 overall, okay. Generally that is decided in ways that are going to be hard to control. Chicago tried to do it, failed and got rewarded in this system.
 
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simonedvinsson

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Instead of a draft lottery, there should be a tournament between every team outside the playoffs made up of the general managers and their staff (e.g. Steve Yzerman, Shawn Horcoff, Kris Draper, Niklas Kronwall, Nicklas Lidstrom, Kirk Matlby). Winner gets first overall. Runner up gets second overall. TV ratings would be through the roof, and legacy teams such as Detroit are the benefactors.
 

Big Poppa Puck

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There's giving lip service to "keeping the streak alive" not tanking and then there is literally throwing away futures on moves that in no way shape or form moved the needle in a positive way and were completely stupid from the moment they were registered with the league.

1st for Quincey in 2012
2nd + Eaves + Jarnkrok for Legwand in 20-14
2nd + Janmark + Bachman for Cole + 3rd in 2015

Those moves were infuriating the moment they happened. That Jarnkrok and Janmark are valuable members of their teams even today makes it even worse. And again the picks used on Hintz and Vasilevskiy were part of these trades...

Dig 'em up. I'm sure my posts are still floating around in the ether on those trades.

The last few years were terrible and I think in some fans eyes it makes them think he was never a good GM and they nitpick every thing before that. I think him and the Illitches are both to blame for it. Some argue the rebuild shoulda started the day we missed out on Suter, but you couldn't go full rebuild while D and Z still had some years left. It probably shoulda start after the RD1 beat down from Boston. I think Holland even said he wanted to start a rebuild then, but then you as you said, some of his moves weren't great.

The Quincey trade was absolutely terrible, I think the board was almost unanimous on that one from the moment it happened. Even if we were still a competing team in 2012, you don't trade a 1st for Kyle F'ing Quincey. If that's a 2nd round pick I think it's fine. No idea what he was thinking there.

I was ok with the Legwand trade until I saw Jarnkrok was involved. No need to include him. 2nd + Eaves was fine. That was an overpay and the way Babcock used him made it even worse.

The Cole trade though, I didn't mind. Didn't love it but didn't hate it either. He was actually playing decent for us until the career ending neck injury, which you can't blame Holland for.

The Abby and Helm extensions were bad And Nielsen was 2 years too long the moment they were signed. Weiss was tough luck similar to Cole.


Yzerman has had it a lot to clean up and it sucks we've been getting absolutely getting shit luck in the lottery, not that I even expected to win this year. I was furious in 2020, but that actually worked out for us I guess since Raymond is better than Laf. I just laughed when Chicago won. I even texted in a few friends something like "theres no way Chicago doesn't win the lottery right?" Can't have Bedard in Anaheim or Columbus. I'm surprised they did change the rules to the old system just to get Pitt in their as well, lol.
 
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DoMakc

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I don't understand why we need to reharsh everything over the last thirty years in a draft thread. People should let the Holland thing go. He left, wish him do well in Edmonton - at least you saw your team winning a Cup in your lifetime, so it wasn't all bad. Be happy having Yzerman (or not), look forward to new faces. I just don't understand people why people prefer to live in the past.
 

AlwaysSunnyInDetroit

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Oct 1, 2021
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How about we do away with the draft altogether? The cap will stop a Yankees Wings hoarding of talent. Teams will pick up and sell big contracts at the deadline differently In fact, contract structure will change. Heck, do away with the entry level contract as well. Imagine the teams bidding for Bedard today, weighing this against having a full roster and being players in next years draft. Tanking would also end. Sure a team may clear out salary for a player like Bedard. Say they sign him to an 12x8 deal. By the time they build around him, that team will be locked out of the high dollar talent for years to come.


I know I know... BRILLIANT! LOL!

OK, beat it up.
I need clarification before I tear your post to shreds
 

norrisnick

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I don't understand why we need to reharsh everything over the last thirty years in a draft thread. People should let the Holland thing go. He left, wish him do well in Edmonton - at least you saw your team winning a Cup in your lifetime, so it wasn't all bad. Be happy having Yzerman (or not), look forward to new faces. I just don't understand people why people prefer to live in the past.
No one prefers it. It's just that sometimes the reminders of the past take a while to go away...

1683678066249.png
 

lilidk

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I don't understand why we need to reharsh everything over the last thirty years in a draft thread. People should let the Holland thing go. He left, wish him do well in Edmonton - at least you saw your team winning a Cup in your lifetime, so it wasn't all bad. Be happy having Yzerman (or not), look forward to new faces. I just don't understand people why people prefer to live in the past.
Stop be so grumpy, be happy 😊
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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Can we be sure of that though? The players who will be in the draft 3 or 4 years from now are barely teenagers.

I don't follow prospects closely but it seems like a lot can transpire in development over that time with kids that age,

Of course ANYTHING is possible, but the chances of seeing a better draft in the next decade is probably about the same as the Red Wings winning the lottery.

Then again, the only thing that matters when you actually WIN the lottery is the top talent, depth isn't a big deal when you have #1 OA. Michael Misa appears to be the next "generational" talent in 2025.

(I put generational in quotes because it's so overused. He's supposed to be "realgud".)
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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The last few years were terrible and I think in some fans eyes it makes them think he was never a good GM and they nitpick every thing before that. I think him and the Illitches are both to blame for it. Some argue the rebuild shoulda started the day we missed out on Suter, but you couldn't go full rebuild while D and Z still had some years left. It probably shoulda start after the RD1 beat down from Boston. I think Holland even said he wanted to start a rebuild then, but then you as you said, some of his moves weren't great.

The Quincey trade was absolutely terrible, I think the board was almost unanimous on that one from the moment it happened. Even if we were still a competing team in 2012, you don't trade a 1st for Kyle F'ing Quincey. If that's a 2nd round pick I think it's fine. No idea what he was thinking there.

I was ok with the Legwand trade until I saw Jarnkrok was involved. No need to include him. 2nd + Eaves was fine. That was an overpay and the way Babcock used him made it even worse.

The Cole trade though, I didn't mind. Didn't love it but didn't hate it either. He was actually playing decent for us until the career ending neck injury, which you can't blame Holland for.

The Abby and Helm extensions were bad And Nielsen was 2 years too long the moment they were signed. Weiss was tough luck similar to Cole.


Yzerman has had it a lot to clean up and it sucks we've been getting absolutely getting shit luck in the lottery, not that I even expected to win this year. I was furious in 2020, but that actually worked out for us I guess since Raymond is better than Laf. I just laughed when Chicago won. I even texted in a few friends something like "theres no way Chicago doesn't win the lottery right?" Can't have Bedard in Anaheim or Columbus. I'm surprised they did change the rules to the old system just to get Pitt in their as well, lol.

The Abby contract was inexcusable. Normally, you can give the benefit of the doubt on a FA contract. Abby was nothing but a Spartan backboard for sick goals by Datsyuk even by that point.

But the worst stuff they did was strength and conditioning. How many man-games did we lose to groin injuries or other strains? They were exemplary compared to the league in the late 90s-mid 2000s but everyone else caught up and the Wings never updated their plans.

E: it’s one of the first things Yzerman looked at and was like “wtf, boys. This is the shit we did in the 90s”
 
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ricky0034

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The Abby contract was inexcusable. Normally, you can give the benefit of the doubt on a FA contract. Abby was nothing but a Spartan backboard for sick goals by Datsyuk even by that point.

But the worst stuff they did was strength and conditioning. How many man-games did we lose to groin injuries or other strains? They were exemplary compared to the league in the late 90s-mid 2000s but everyone else caught up and the Wings never updated their plans.

stuff like this is why it's just a bad idea to have a GM for 20+ years in general

when the same guys in charge at the top all that time there's gonna be a lot of stagnancy in personnel changes, especially stuff like training staff that are a lot less visible than coaching
 
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better Red than Dead

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The hickey Gods were sure smiling on the Hawks, after all, they ranked for 1 season only, bullied and harassed one of their top prospects where the whole organization covered it up. Winning the lottery couldn’t have happened to a more deserving team
 
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Pavels Dog

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Of course ANYTHING is possible, but the chances of seeing a better draft in the next decade is probably about the same as the Red Wings winning the lottery.
This draft looks good, but it's going to take a while to know if the depth outside of the top 4-5 guys is anything special.

2003 draft is widely considered one of the best ever and it's not because the very top was elite. Fleury, Staal, Horton and Zherdev doesn't sound that impressive, but the depth was.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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I don’t know about that. Trevor Lawrence, the 2 QBs next year, Andrew Luck.

I just think the NFL product is more bulletproof and profitable. They don’t seem to care when there is special QB prospects, because it does happen.

Again as I said if you are concerned about the product deteriorating, look at what Arizona is doing with a lottery in place. That’s not bad enough?
None of those guys have the level of hype in their sport as a Lemieux/Lindros/McDavid/Bedard, even a Stamkos/Tavares. There's often a 'top QB' prospect, but everyone knows it's not really a given they'll work out, and it'd be stupid to just brutally tank for a guy. They didn't even do that for Manning who I think might have been the biggest QB prospect of my lifetime.

The Bedard lottery outcome was arguably one of the biggest NHL headlines of the year (I saw it on non-hockey, non-Canadian media) and that's because hockey is more like basketball in anointing 'chosen ones' before they are even drafted.

Here's the thing with the Arizona situation. As bad as them playing in a college rink and making a mockery of the salary floor is...they didn't exactly finish in last place with 9 wins did they? There were 5 teams worse than them and they won 28 games. That's not good, but what the league doesn't want is teams winning 10-15 games i.e. what sometimes happened in the 'old days'. And that was at a time before teams understood that it's not being a last place terrible team that you should fear, it's being a mediocre team without elite young talent.

Of course the lottery doesn't change the fundamental reality of that, but it mediates it to the point that teams know that being 'bad' is sufficient to have a fair shot at a prospect like Bedard, you don't have to be *ultra bad*. Chicago's teardown may have been even more aggressive and have come much earlier in the season if they'd known that to get Bedard they'd need to get less than 50 points.

And I do suspect that a team being 60 points bad vs 40 points bad makes a difference in ticket sales. People will go to home games if their bad team still has a chance to win. If it's obvious they'll lose? Not so much. You can see that with truly bad baseball teams.
 

Frk It

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None of those guys have the level of hype in their sport as a Lemieux/Lindros/McDavid/Bedard, even a Stamkos/Tavares. There's often a 'top QB' prospect, but everyone knows it's not really a given they'll work out, and it'd be stupid to just brutally tank for a guy. They didn't even do that for Manning who I think might have been the biggest QB prospect of my lifetime.

The Bedard lottery outcome was arguably one of the biggest NHL headlines of the year (I saw it on non-hockey, non-Canadian media) and that's because hockey is more like basketball in anointing 'chosen ones' before they are even drafted.

Here's the thing with the Arizona situation. As bad as them playing in a college rink and making a mockery of the salary floor is...they didn't exactly finish in last place with 9 wins did they? There were 5 teams worse than them and they won 28 games. That's not good, but what the league doesn't want is teams winning 10-15 games i.e. what sometimes happened in the 'old days'. And that was at a time before teams understood that it's not being a last place terrible team that you should fear, it's being a mediocre team without elite young talent.

Of course the lottery doesn't change the fundamental reality of that, but it mediates it to the point that teams know that being 'bad' is sufficient to have a fair shot at a prospect like Bedard, you don't have to be *ultra bad*. Chicago's teardown may have been even more aggressive and have come much earlier in the season if they'd known that to get Bedard they'd need to get less than 50 points.

And I do suspect that a team being 60 points bad vs 40 points bad makes a difference in ticket sales. People will go to home games if their bad team still has a chance to win. If it's obvious they'll lose? Not so much. You can see that with truly bad baseball teams.
If there wasn't a salary cap floor, I think you would have more of a point. The salary cap floor is going to insulate you from having more substantially terrible play than what we get already. And regardless of if there is a lottery or not, they should really consider making it illegal to do what Arizona does as far as taking on retired players contracts to get to the cap floor.

That is going to protect you from having teams as bad as what you suggest.

I disagree on the hype with NFL prospects, but don't need to die on that hill. Andrew Luck was incredibly hyped if you go back and look at any articles from that time frame. I think the same will happen next year with this USC kid.
 

Bench

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None of those guys have the level of hype in their sport as a Lemieux/Lindros/McDavid/Bedard, even a Stamkos/Tavares.

This is a super insulated take.

Do you have any idea how popular college football is in America, particularly the Southern United States? It's basically religion.

Mario Lemieux? He's only big in hockey circles. That's gonna be a Mario Lewho compared to Payton Manning.

Even busts like Baker Mayfield are going to be infinitely more recognizable and popular than Tavares. Nobody outside of hockey nerds knows who he is or Bedard.
 

raymond23

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I will say, all the player movement in the NFL and how teams can rebound in a matter of 2-3 years makes the league more exciting as a fan. These decade long rebuilds that have a 3-4 year window and then lead right back to another 5 years of tweaking from franchises in the NHL is pretty brutal.

Like Florida appears to FINALLY be on their way this year, but holy smokes it's been a long, long haul for that team. Barkov was a #2 overall pick 10 damn years ago. From 2000 to 2015, the Panthers made the playoffs ONE time.

Without a little lottery luck, these rebuilds can take ages in the NHL.

Well said.

For me, the most eye opening part of the red wings "rebuild" so far is the incredible amount of patience it requires. Once I started researching the path of recent cup champs, it was wild to see how long it took them to reach that point. I'm talking like a decade plus. Not to mention the incredible amount of luck required.

Honestly, it feels like we're approaching almost a decade of miserable fandom. I definitely won't take winning for granted any longer
 
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Bench

3 is a good start
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Well said.

For me, the most eye opening part of the red wings "rebuild" so far is the incredible amount of patience it requires. Once I started researching the path of recent cup champs, it was wild to see how long it took them to reach that point. I'm talking like a decade plus. Not to mention the incredible amount of luck required.

Honestly, it feels like we're approaching almost a decade of miserable fandom. I definitely won't take winning for granted any longer

For real. Colorado had quite a long rebuild as well.

They are a team we all admire now but that was a nearly 15 year process. Landeskog was picked at #2 overall in 2011.

Looking at other teams, it wouldn't be weird at all for the Wings to be fully ready in like... 2030.
 

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