The least likable Pens team ever?

[NeedleInTheHay]

The least likeable Pens HFBoard ever?

Absolutely, this used to be a great discussion board about the team.

 

[Smacker]

To those who hate DB, of course they think he's arrogant or incompetent. When a coach is unsure of himself and his coaching the entire team falls apart. His ways are what got the 2011 Pens to the playoffs without Sid and Geno. It's also what gave them a 15 point lead in their division despite 400+ man games lost to injury.

On the other hand, it is concerning that his team often underperform in the playoffs. Not that they played badly in 2010 vs Montreal or 2011 vs Tampa. They were easily the better team in both series. People only remember losses, not how you lost.

With that said, even though I'm a DB and Shero supporter (more so Shero than DB), if they underperform in these playoffs it's time for a change.

This. I believe in this team, but this is also Bylsma's last chance to show up in the playoffs.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Absolutely, this used to be a great discussion board about the team.

Instead of belittling the critics, why don't you counter any of the points that I made in my OP. I'm curious to see where you think I'm out of step.

 

[IcedCapp]

So now a dynasty is a cup, 2 first round exits, and then a cup?

Two cups in that time span with a salary cap? Yes...

There are two different issues at play here.

The driving force behind much of this thread is this: people being unable or unwilling to understand that some people enjoy sports with a critical eye.

We're not worse fans than you, just different.

The Pens roster and philosophy has been fairly stagnant for the past five years, while their on-ice performance has been pretty constant: lots of lazy, lots of undisciplined, lots of bizarre, moments of unparalleled skill.

At that point, the critical guys are going to become critical voices. We see the patterns. We see the stagnation. Our brains are obligated to find an outlet. This is it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The driving force behind much of this thread is this: people being unable or unwilling to understand that some people enjoy sports with a critical eye.

We're not worse fans than you, just different.

This is something those who keep sarcastically bringing up the record don't seem to get. A fan can not be happy with an aspect of their favorite team without their argument being made moot by simply pointing at their record and saying, "LOL no".

I kind of liken it to the 90's trapping Devils teams. A fan of the Devils could argue that it's a boring team to watch, without that comment being negated by someone simply posting their record. Maybe a fan would rather watch a more offensive-minded game? Simply pointing out a team's record, without paying attention to the actual reasons being given, is at best weak, at worst poor reading comprehension.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Instead of belittling the critics, why don't you counter any of the points that I made in my OP. I'm curious to see where you think I'm out of step.

You said you watched less than five games this year. It's kinda hard to take your points seriously when you admit to not watching the games.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Absolutely, this used to be a great discussion board about the team.

You're right. All's well in Penguin Land. Plan the parade, boys! If you're not blindly faithful in the team and think Bylsma and Shero are the all-knowing ones, your point of view is unconscionable.

I wish people stop whining about the discussions going on by those who are fed up and voicing their opinions/venting frustrations. Not everyone's going to be on the same page, especially when a team has as many issues as this one does.

If you don't agree, either move along or post an argument discussing why you disagree. Simple as that. Doesn't seem that hard.

 

[Jedi Pengu*]

You're right. All's well in Penguin Land. Plan the parade, boys! If you're not blindly faithful in the team and think Bylsma and Shero are the all-knowing ones, your point of view is unconscionable.

I wish people stop whining about the discussions going on by those who are fed up and voicing their opinions/venting frustrations. Not everyone's going to be on the same page, especially when a team has as many issues as this one does.

If you don't agree, either move along or post an argument discussing why you disagree. Simple as that. Doesn't seem that hard.

This exactly. The bandwagon fans that can't see the MAJOR issues going on with the management of this team can choose to ignore this post. We actually do have some really knowledgable Penguins fans here and a lot if us have recognized big problems. Shero and Bylsma are both nice guys that are loyal and that's the problem. You need to be cutthroat as a GM and as a coach you can't be everyone's friend. ESPECIALLY best friends to all the 3/4 line grinding veterans, it's a mess. Guys are seeing ice time twice as long as they should be. I remember Dennis Potvin talking about the islanders dynasty and he said he key was the changes to players in room year to year. The core stayed together but the bottom six grind guys were interchanged annually to keep the room fresh. The Blackhawks are doing this now and the Penguins are doing the opposite. The results will speak for themselves.

I don't know what to do or what I will do if Shero resigns Brooks Orpik. It's funny cause a lot of us fans would have traded him and got something in return. But alas, he won a cup here and had "the shift" so he has a free ride into the sunset!???'

 

[IcedCapp]

the irony here is that many of the pessimists actually talk hockey. Xs and Os. Tactics, strategy, draft, philosophy, etc...

There is a lot of good hockey talk that comes from the pessimists.

I would say, there is a group of posters on this board confused for pessimists who are actually just trolls, and you shouldn't form your opinions about anyone based on them. You should just use the ignore feature.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

You should use the SMUG Blysma JPG as your profile pic, sums you up perfectly. The reason you won't respond is that there isn't a defense to be made on the points that I made. Defend Sutter or Adams, you can't. Defend Shero trading a bundle for Iggy only to have Bylsma misuse him, you can't.

Adams, Pyatt, and Bylsma can all be fired tomorrow and I'd be perfectly happy. Yes this team has issues but so does every other single team in a cap era. The pens have one of the 7 best shots at the cup this year so the incessant whining gets real old, why can't the board have a middle ground?

 

[The Big Dawg*]

Adams, Pyatt, and Bylsma can all be fired tomorrow and I'd be perfectly happy. Yes this team has issues but so does every other single team in a cap era. The pens have one of the 7 best shots at the cup this year so the incessant whining gets real old, why can't the board have a middle ground?

Or why can't you understand that people are pissed that the same ****'s been going on for 4 years now and they still failed to make any significant changes. The organization has become complacent, that's the biggest issue here.

 

[ThatGuy]

'08 team 4 lyfe

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You're right. All's well in Penguin Land. Plan the parade, boys! If you're not blindly faithful in the team and think Bylsma and Shero are the all-knowing ones, your point of view is unconscionable.

I wish people stop whining about the discussions going on by those who are fed up and voicing their opinions/venting frustrations. Not everyone's going to be on the same page, especially when a team has as many issues as this one does.

If you don't agree, either move along or post an argument discussing why you disagree. Simple as that. Doesn't seem that hard.

I think the problem is that pretty much everyone is on the same page complaining about the coaching and makeup of this team. Hell, I agree with 90% of the complaints and it is still tiring to me as there is practically no discussion, almost just a contest who can be the most negative. After a win if someone dares say the team played a good game, another poster will come along and say "they won't win this way in the playoffs." Like who the **** cares? Again, I know there are serious problems with Bylsma and this teams depth and have felt this way long before the majority of this board did so I am under no delusions that this team will do well in the postseason but I will still hope they win and are successful anyway.

It's just entertainment in the end and if so many of you are upset with this team win or lose, I'm not sure why you watch if it only causes frustration.

 

[tom_servo]

I agree with Mark Madden's broadcast in the Penguins media thread. If big changes don't come after another failure, you'd be crazy to buy tickets.

I think we all just differ on the timeframe. I had sort of written this season off because of the cap going down, and the departure of free agents. Outside of a random coaching change, there seemed to be no chance that the 2014 roster would be better than 2013.

We'll truly see how much they've learned in this postseason (toss out this regular season crying. It's a double standard on this board). Fleury (remember him?) is a big variable. Getting a new goaltender would constitute a major change. Bylsma's job will be near defenseless if Fleury doesn't crap the bed but they fail anyway.

I disagree with the retroactive criticism of Shero's performance as a talent-provider. He's given some really good rosters (with a lot of often-dumb players) to this coach. If Bylsma's the problem, then that's the only non-move worth condemning Shero for, because his roster-building to compensate for a dud coach would need to be immaculate down to the 23rd man.

 

[mpp9]

http://t.co/pP6vBdr5Av

Brooks Orpik knows the book on the Penguins. It is a best seller in hockey circles.

“Every team knows it,” Orpik said. “Target certain guys, and try to get under our skin. (Opponents) know eventually they can get us off of our game and get us to lose our focus.

There is a line, and the Penguins too often cross it, Glass said.

“Retaliation is almost always over the line,” he said. “I don't know why we're not learning.”

Defenseman Deryk Engelland guessed how that happens. It is from the action he takes against opponents' stars.

“A little whack in the back of the legs, finishing every hit or between-whistles bumping a guy as he goes to the bench,” Engelland said. “You want to just a guy know you're around, see if you can get him thinking more about you than playing hockey.”

Neal said “that stuff” is most prominent in the playoffs.

“You've got to let it go and work through it, not let it bother you and try to not let it affect your play,” Neal said.

“It starts with guys like myself.”

Good god.

 

[cygnus47]

I think the likeability basically boils down to the fact that we've gone from an overachieving team from 06-10 to an underachieving one since 2011. I get the impression that the team wants to win so that it meet expectations rather than win because they love to win. Fans want to see that the team will do whatever it takes to win, not just win because they're talented.

 

[wolffy66]

I don't know if they are overly likeable or not but I don't see them as particularly unlikeable.

There are players that are horrible at hockey, that is hard to enjoy watching. And frustrating considering everyone in the hockey world seems to know that our bottom six is terribad. (with much better options at our disposal)

But one solution and the team is instantly more fun to watch. Get rid of Bylsma. Bye Bye to things like Tanner f'ing Glass on the 1st line, Craig Adams in the nhl and grinding with Geno and Neal.

Then we still have to stomach a few small things but all will seem right in your life at that magical moment.

 

[SEALBound]

Why do so many of our players refuse to take the sure thing shot in favor of the very low percentage pretty play?

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

2003-04 Pens for me. I really regret getting a Dick Tarnstrom jersey.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

I wouldn't say our team isn't likeable, however like a few others have said this season is the first in many years for me where Pens games aren't must watch TV. I've missed quite a few games lately and frankly I don't really care. Honestly I preferred skipping last weekends double comedy of errors against the Flyers to hang out with my woman over sitting through 2 games of that ****.

Seeing us make the same mistakes year after year, refusing to learn from them and change for the better, and the inevitable playoff blunderings that will be happening very soon just isn't fun anymore.

 

[TyroneBiggums]

You should use the SMUG Blysma JPG as your profile pic, sums you up perfectly. The reason you won't respond is that there isn't a defense to be made on the points that I made. Defend Sutter or Adams, you can't. Defend Shero trading a bundle for Iggy only to have Bylsma misuse him, you can't.

What do people - seriously - expect of Sutter? I've never understood the issues you all have with him. He's a 3rd line center, if you look at offensive production, he performs right around or above other 3rd liners(all the while playing with Adams, Pyatt, and Glass fairly regularly), and if I recall correctly, is in the top 15 of all centers for defensive advanced stats.

With Iggy, you had 2 seasons of "the best line in Hockey", which WAS all Crosby, but you would be hard pressed to find a professional coach that would break up Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis over the past two seasons, regardless of it being misguided, that's just how it would be with anyone.

Shero tried to make his team better and prohibit other Eastern Conference powerhouses from getting better. This one is. . .Quite easy to defend.

Adams and Orpik are the only two players I have a large issue with, but I wouldn't replace them with guys with little to no experience, I don't know why a bunch of couch-coaches think putting a bunch of Despres-like spazzes on the ice will be better than what we have now when it comes to the playoffs.

Bylsma is a mediocre coach, he is not as bad as this forum would have you believe, and he's not as good as media makes him seem. He is remarkably average.

 

[Coastal Kev]

What do people - seriously - expect of Sutter? I've never understood the issues you all have with him. He's a 3rd line center, if you look at offensive production, he performs right around or above other 3rd liners(all the while playing with Adams, Pyatt, and Glass fairly regularly), and if I recall correctly, is in the top 15 of all centers for defensive advanced stats.

With Iggy, you had 2 seasons of "the best line in Hockey", which WAS all Crosby, but you would be hard pressed to find a professional coach that would break up Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis over the past two seasons, regardless of it being misguided, that's just how it would be with anyone.

Shero tried to make his team better and prohibit other Eastern Conference powerhouses from getting better. This one is. . .Quite easy to defend.

Adams and Orpik are the only two players I have a large issue with, but I wouldn't replace them with guys with little to no experience, I don't know why a bunch of couch-coaches think putting a bunch of Despres-like spazzes on the ice will be better than what we have now when it comes to the playoffs.

Bylsma is a mediocre coach, he is not as bad as this forum would have you believe, and he's not as good as media makes him seem. He is remarkably average.

I can't speak for everyone, but I look for one thing: EFFORT. I watch the guy and most nights he looks to be just going through the motions. This is why I was a big supporter of Tyler Kennedy here when most hated him, the guy brought it every night. The player also must have competent skill as well, which Sutter has.

 

[billybudd]

What do people - seriously - expect of Sutter? I've never understood the issues you all have with him.

That he play like a Sutter. Or, you know, possess a pulse. Be capable of winning a board battle. Be able to establish body position. Not get stiff armed to the ice on more than one occasion by Torey Krug, who is 5'7.

If there's a 6'3 player who's weaker than Sutter, I'd like to know his name.

He's a 3rd line center, if you look at offensive production, he performs right around or above other 3rd liners(all the while playing with Adams, Pyatt, and Glass fairly regularly), and if I recall correctly, is in the top 15 of all centers for defensive advanced stats.

You don't. Sutter has a corsi for in the low 40s. That's not with Gladams, that's on his career. With everybody. It includes time spent with Eric Staal. Jeff Skinner. Sidney Crosby. Matt Cooke. In short, players with huge positive corsi %.

What this number indicates is that a line with Sutter is completely incapable of spending any amount of time in the offensive zone.

Generally speaking, "advanced stats" proponents look favorably on the defensive play of guys who don't spend a lot of time in their zone (Sean Couturier, Ryan Kesler, Jordan Staal, etc etc) and view guys who spend a ton of time in their own zone as below the Mendoza Line in their function.

Among "third line" centers on our own team, Sutter is a distant second-best as a defensive player in a two man race.

With Iggy, you had 2 seasons of "the best line in Hockey", which WAS all Crosby, but you would be hard pressed to find a professional coach that would break up Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis over the past two seasons, regardless of it being misguided, that's just how it would be with anyone.

I actually don't think Dupuis should have been moved off that line at any point since he was put there because there has never been a better fit to come through here other than Neal, who isn't an option, and possibly Iginla, though I'm skeptical about Iggy working out (he's got a ton of goals in Boston, but every time I watch that team, he's doing little to nothing right except finishing. Lucic and Krejci are carrying the guy from what I can see). Dupuis is significantly overtrashed on this board, on that, if only that, we can both agree.

Adams and Orpik are the only two players I have a large issue with, but I wouldn't replace them with guys with little to no experience, I don't know why a bunch of couch-coaches think putting a bunch of Despres-like spazzes on the ice will be better than what we have now when it comes to the playoffs.

Not sure what this means. Despres might be a bit of a spaz, but he's also very, very effective. Any team could use a bunch of "spazzes" like him. Certainly over the likes of Pyatt or Gibbons or any of the other guys you don't have a problem with.

 

[Tender Rip]

As intimated in other threads.... I don't particularly dislike anyone on the team other than Bylsma.

Sure, I want Adams off the ice, but as a person I have no issues with him. Same goes for Glass and Pyatt. Brooks is getting hard to like and I seriously wouldn't want him re-signed, but if he was a third pairing D-man playing 15 minutes; knowing that he had to give full effort to get those minutes... I doubt I would have a problem.

What I don't like about the TEAM is the kind of hockey it plays, and while to some extent that is due to Bylsma's lineup decisions/roster management, it is even more due to the absence of strategy befitting the roster he has.

 

[spcastlemagic]

Does this sound familiar to anybody? From Roger Angell:

I recognised the tone. It was knowing, cold, full of the contempt that the calculator feels for those who don’t play the odds. It was the voice of the Yankee fan. The Yankees have won the American League pennant twenty times in the past thirty years; they have been the world’s champion sixteen times in that period. Over the years, many of their followers have come to watch them with the stolidity, the smugness, and the arrogance of blue-chip stocks. These fans expect no less than perfection. They coolly accept the late-inning rally, the winning homer, as only their due. They are apt to take defeat with ill grace, and they treat their stars as though they were executives hired to protect their interests. During a slump or a losing streak, these capitalists are quick and shrill with their complaints: “They ought to do better than this, considering what they’re being paid!â€

Suddenly the Mets fans made sense to me. What we were witnessing was precisely the opposite of the kind of rooting that goes on across the river. This was the losing cheer, the gallant yell for a good try — antimatter to the sounds of Yankee Stadium. This was a new recognition that perfection is admirable but a trifle inhuman, and that a stumbling kind of semi-success can be much more warming. Most of all, perhaps, these exultant yells for the Mets were also yells for ourselves, and came from a wry, half-understood recognition that there is more Met than Yankee in every one of us.

We went from being underdogs, lovable losers, to a cap-spending, superstar-laden team with no viable excuses for failure. It makes for being a much different type of sports fan.