The Leafs Have Improved!!!

[Disgruntled Observer*]

If the Leafs will improve, it WILL be mainly because of their core players, but these tougher, more tenacious 3rd/4th line role players certainly should help us be harder to play against, as opposed to guys like Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Gleason & Raymond and even Bolland(but only because he missed 59 games), who had some snazzy micro-stat numbers, but were also a very EASY bunch for opponents to go up against.

So the leafs traded 3rd/4th line skill and defensive ability for toughness.

You think that that is a good idea because it's what the leafs did. That's the entire extent of what shapes your opinions. "What leafs management did" = "best possible decision". The end.

If the leafs traded all of our tougher players for skill and defensive ability, you'd be SCREAMING over these boards about how toughness is over-rated in the new nhl, and how Nonis is GENIUS.
About how much we improved this year with defensive minded forwards who can pitch in points.

It's so insane around here.
We signed CHEAPER players who score LESS points who are arguably LESS defensivly gifted... but we somehow improved because "we'll be harder to play against".

It just goes to show that no matter WHAT happens, the usual suspects will spin their way through arguments trying to defend leaf management.
The same leaf management they've defended for TEN YEARS who have shown PATHETIC results in the standings.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Huh? Bolland only played 23 games on the 3rd line last year. He missed 57 games. You must have forgotten that part. No problem. I'm here to help!!

Kontiola, or Santorelli, or Komarov, or Holland for 82 games.......pretty much HAS to be an improvement on Bolland for 23 games, and McClement or Trevor Smith as his replacement for the other 57, which is what we had.

No?

Of course. The world according to Holymakinaw.

The NEW leaf players will all play 82 full games. Nevermind that a couple of them have struggled with injuries their whole career and are just as injury prone as Bolland.

It's just so embarrassing...

 

[egd27]

Asked and answered see post #450. (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=87807165#post87807165)

I doubt you could find any Leaf fan that would rather have Bolland on the the team at that price. Not sure why that point is even being debated in this thread.

However that doesn't mean Bolland isn't a better player than anyone that the Leafs brought in to replace him with.. That's a different discussion and the topic of this thread as in "Leafs have improved" debate. You think Bolland is the better play so removing a better player and replacing him with a lesser player doesn't necessarily equate to > team improvement. That is fact is backwards thinking, as better players make teams better.

In fact Leafs Bolland's cap hit last year on the Leafs $3.4 mil and Santorelli ($1.5 mil) + Kontiola ($1.1 mil) + Frattin ($800k) = $3.4 mil cap.. 3 players for the price of 1 in terms of cap hit !!!..

But how about team improvement as they're replacing Bolland+Raymond+McClement on the Leafs roster instead, and not only trying to replace Bolland?.

Oh I can answer that.

The topic was that if the Leafs signed Bolland to the contract he received from Florida, they would have been accused of poor asset management. By not signing him, they are being accused of poor asset management.

You were the one that introduced Santorelli out of the blue thereby running us down a different path.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Asked and answered see post #450. (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=87807165#post87807165)

I doubt you could find any Leaf fan that would rather have Bolland on the the team at that price. Not sure why that point is even being debated in this thread.

However that doesn't mean Bolland isn't a better player than anyone that the Leafs brought in to replace him with.. That's a different discussion and the topic of this thread as in "Leafs have improved" debate. You think Bolland is the better play so removing a better player and replacing him with a lesser player doesn't necessarily equate to > team improvement. That is fact is backwards thinking, as better players make teams better.

In fact Leafs Bolland's cap hit last year on the Leafs $3.4 mil and Santorelli ($1.5 mil) + Kontiola ($1.1 mil) + Frattin ($800k) = $3.4 mil cap.. 3 players for the price of 1 in terms of cap hit !!!..

But how about team improvement as they're replacing Bolland+Raymond+McClement on the Leafs roster instead, and not only trying to replace Bolland?.

Yeah, I made a very similar post a couple of days ago in this thread.

Nonis lost decent players to free agency because other teams overpaid for them. Not his fault.
Nonis replaced them with less talented stop gaps. He wasn't trying to address needs. He was trying to sign anyone he could get, really, because the pickings were slim.

I'm not even criticizing him. He did what he could given the situation.

But in the process of adding new cheaper less talented players who score less points... the team has NOT improved.
It's INSANE that anybody is arguing differently.

Everybody ignored it because people around here don't like stances with any sort of complexity.
They like "leafs done good" or "leafs done bad"

 

[Durkin67]

So the leafs traded 3rd/4th line skill and defensive ability for toughness.

You think that that is a good idea because it's what the leafs did. That's the entire extent of what shapes your opinions. "What leafs management did" = "best possible decision". The end.

If the leafs traded all of our tougher players for skill and defensive ability, you'd be SCREAMING over these boards about how toughness is over-rated in the new nhl, and how Nonis is GENIUS.
About how much we improved this year with defensive minded forwards who can pitch in points.

It's so insane around here.
We signed CHEAPER players who score LESS points who are arguably LESS defensivly gifted... but we somehow improved because "we'll be harder to play against".

It just goes to show that no matter WHAT happens, the usual suspects will spin their way through arguments trying to defend leaf management.
The same leaf management they've defended for TEN YEARS who have shown PATHETIC results in the standings.

Hey man...

The Leafs haven't had the same management for TEN MONTHS at this point let alone TEN YEARS.

How is it the same management?

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Hey man...

The Leafs haven't had the same management for TEN MONTHS at this point let alone TEN YEARS.

How is it the same management?

I'm criticizing the people who defend leafs management no matter what, whether it's Fletcher, Burke, or Nonis.

 

[leafs in five]

because the same group of hapless hockey guys are running the team

 

[ACC1224]

Hey man...

The Leafs haven't had the same management for TEN MONTHS at this point let alone TEN YEARS.

How is it the same management?

It has nothing to do with Management. Any rational thought must be squashed immediately.

 

[thewave]

People look and see a guy like Konti and say oh he is just a KHL scrub, he is probably top 6 material here he just chose a different path.

Komarov can change the tempo of a game, he's a Catalyst which is good to have.

Frattin is a gamble but if he finds something here again we could be happy campers.

Nylander could crack this lineup and has the versatility to play wing. If he is as good as they claim Raymond is replaced. You can't hold someone back who deserves it.

The only real deal trash here is Clarkson and Orr etc. Are we a great team? No. Are we a team that could increase the values of assets in trade, highly possible.

 

[Holymakinaw]

=It just goes to show that no matter WHAT happens, the usual suspects will spin their way through arguments trying to defend leaf management.
The same leaf management they've defended for TEN YEARS who have shown PATHETIC results in the standings.

No, your constant crying & moaning is proof that no matter what happens, the "usual suspects" will come in and crap all over it. You sure like pointing fingers at everyone else and talking negatively about them. but YOU are the super-predictable one with the anti-Leaf bias here. So far, every move they've made has been bad according to you, and you come into every thread and insult everyone who has any positive opinions on things. You're not to be listened to. PATHETIC.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Bolland was a huge bullet dodged.

Agreed.

I applaud the Leafs for not over paying to keep a 3rd line centre who is injury prone.

Bolland in my opinion was just acting selfish ever since the season ended. Take a meager pay cut for the city that you didn't fulfill your obligations to due to injury. Don't just bail to whatever team will pay you another ridiculous salary. Thumbs down Bolland. Good riddance.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

No, your constant crying & moaning is proof that no matter what happens, the "usual suspects" will come in and crap all over it. You sure like pointing fingers at everyone else and talking negatively about them. but YOU are the super-predictable one with the anti-Leaf bias here. So far, every move they've made has been bad according to you, and you come into every thread and insult everyone who has any positive opinions on things. You're not to be listened to. PATHETIC.

And over the past ten years, I'VE BEEN RIGHT!
100% CORRECT!!!!

So IT'S BEEN PROVEN that the things I criticize are REAL PROBLEMS!!!!

So it's not that I'm negative. It's that the TEAM IS NEGATIVE!!! And those that discuss the team RATIONALLY come across as "negative".

You, on the other hand, are CONSTANTLY wrong, make HUMILIATING threads like the "no sustainable" thread, yet never learn your lesson.

So, once again, speaking RATIONALLY...
by adding cheaper players with less offense and equal (at best) defense... I think the team has NOT improved.

IT'S JUST SO EMBARRASSING!!!!

 

[hockeyfanz*]

No, your constant crying & moaning is proof that no matter what happens, the "usual suspects" will come in and crap all over it. You sure like pointing fingers at everyone else and talking negatively about them. but YOU are the super-predictable one with the anti-Leaf bias here. So far, every move they've made has been bad according to you, and you come into every thread and insult everyone who has any positive opinions on things. You're not to be listened to. PATHETIC.

Problem is he is right and until he is proven wrong...your posts of positivity mean nothing. I mean you argue that DO is always being negative is ridiculous. The Leafs have sucked for 10 years now or are you new?

P.S. Only your horrific avatar and nickname are new. Are you some recycled poster who wants to remain anonymous because your posts don't stand the test of time?
LOL. At least DO comes back here with his own identity...oh and continues to be right..lets not forget that part.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Agreed.

I applaud the Leafs for not over paying to keep a 3rd line centre who is injury prone.

Bolland in my opinion was just acting selfish ever since the season ended. Take a meager pay cut for the city that you didn't fulfill your obligations to due to injury. Don't just bail to whatever team will pay you another ridiculous salary. Thumbs down Bolland. Good riddance.

I agree 100%.
Glad we didn't sign those albatross contracts.

But in a thread titled "the leafs have improved"...
do you think the cheaper replacements for Bolland/Kulemin/Raymond/Gunnarsson are actually better at playing ice hockey?

 

[A1LeafNation]

So the Leafs downgrade in skill last year to get grit/leadership and went from 9th to 23rd overall.

So the Leafs downgrade in skill this year to get grit/leadership and will go from 23rd overall....to better?

That doesn't sound right.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

I agree 100%.
Glad we didn't sign those albatross contracts.

But in a thread titled "the leafs have improved"...
do you think the cheaper replacements for Bolland/Kulemin/Raymond/Gunnarsson are actually better at playing ice hockey?

No. They are not. How I see it..

at best

Komorov = Kulemin
Raymond = Santorelli
Bolland > Frattin
Gunnarsson = Polak
Robidas is a ++++
KHL aquistion = unknown..imo..because he has no NHL experience.

Slightly improved I think because of Robidas' experience and leadership...but the rest are a wash at best if not a downgrade

 

[Mess]

The money saved should allow them to ice a better 4th line which contributed to their troubles last year.

I didn't mind McClement. Glad Raymond is gone, he was also a detriment.

Actually the money was gone to either cover the $3 mil combined raises of Kessel and Phaneuf new deals or lost resigning their own RFA Gardiner, Franson and Reimer the last 2 headed to arbitration.

McClement played more PK time than any other NHL player last year SH TOI per game. Wonder who of the new guys takes his spot and improve the PK and the team as his replacement?

Raymond at $1 mil cap produced 19-26-45 points who of the replacement players are going to give the Leafs the same bank for their buck and/or replace the offense to improve the team? His contract value and production made him one of the best UFA signings in 2013.

Leafs 4th line played only limited minutes last year 5-8 TOI/g and didn't effect the outcome of games while sitting on the bench either positive or negatively.. However if the Leafs can ice a 4th line capable of playing ~12 mins a night that could keep Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Lupul and Kadri off the ice more cutting their ES TOI/g down and thus prevent less goals against in the process but it will be needed to see how a Ashton -- Holland -- Brodie/Orr line is used.

 

[Drew75]

No. They are not. How I see it..

at best

Komorov = Kulemin
Raymond = Santorelli
Bolland > Frattin
Gunnarsson = Polak
Robidas is a ++++
KHL aquistion = unknown..imo..because he has no NHL experience.

Slightly improved I think because of Robidas' experience and leadership...but the rest are a wash at best if not a downgrade

The main factor here is the flexibility created going forward. You can not discount that while Komorov at $2.95 > Kulemin at $4, and while Bolland > Frattin, Bolland at $5.25 x 5 is not the same at Frattin at $800K x 2.

It's not about how many goals each player has scored, but the new mix of players are all short term, moveable, and hungry. Whether the sum of the whole is better or worse than what we had is up in the air, but our D has shifted from offensive to a better balance between offense and defense, we have flexibility to better spread the minutes, allow young guys a chance to grab jobs, and have the cap space to make a move should one present itself.

In a "next year" view, the jury is out - but in a long term view I think the organization is better off. (IMHO)

 

[gabeliscious]

No. They are not. How I see it..

at best

Komorov = Kulemin
Raymond = Santorelli
Bolland > Frattin
Gunnarsson = Polak
Robidas is a ++++
KHL aquistion = unknown..imo..because he has no NHL experience.

Slightly improved I think because of Robidas' experience and leadership...but the rest are a wash at best if not a downgrade

while i think the leafs are not looking good overall i think its hard to say we didnt improve.

komorov and kulemin might be comparable but komorov is harder to play against. kulemin is a reliable defensive player but he doesnt antagonize the other team like kulemin and draw penalties.

santorelli again is probably comparable to raymond except i think he is better defensively. he also plays center which that along makes him more valuable. he might not put up raymonds numbers offensively but i think he will be a better overall player. raymonds offense was the result of opportunity - mostly injuries or inadequate players.

obviously bolland is a better player then frattin but contracts aside, bollands risk for injury is super high + we dont really know how much of a difference he would have made considering he only played ~15 games for us. as far as im concerned bolland is no great loss. there is a reason only 1 team lined up to overpay him. as overpaid as clarkson is at least their were multiple teams in there.

i agree robidas should be a better version of gunnarson and kontiola is unknown.

im not expecting better results in the standings so i guess its hard to argue they have improved but i dont see how we are not going to be tougher to play against. offense isnt a huge concern imo from forwards or defense. our problem was possession and the amount of shots we gave up. the players nonis brought in "should" help that.

id be interested to see the following next season to start;

jvr-bozak-kessel
lupul-kadri-clarkson
komrov-kontiola-frattin
santorelli-holland-aston
brodie

phaneuf-robidas
gardiner-polak
rielly-granberg/percy (i would rotate both of them based on play)

bernier
vet backup

 

[ACC1224]

Actually the money was gone to either cover the $3 mil combined raises of Kessel and Phaneuf new deals or lost resigning their own RFA Gardiner, Franson and Reimer the last 2 headed to arbitration.

McClement played more PK time than any other NHL player last year SH TOI per game. Wonder who of the new guys takes his spot and improve the PK and the team as his replacement?

Raymond at $1 mil cap produced 19-26-45 points who of the replacement players are going to give the Leafs the same bank for their buck and/or replace the offense to improve the team? His contract value and production made him one of the best UFA signings in 2013.

Leafs 4th line played only limited minutes last year 5-8 TOI/g and didn't effect the outcome of games while sitting on the bench either positive or negatively.. However if the Leafs can ice a 4th line capable of playing ~12 mins a night that could keep Kessel, JVR, Bozak, Lupul and Kadri off the ice more cutting their ES TOI/g down and thus prevent less goals against in the process but it will be needed to see how a Ashton -- Holland -- Brodie/Orr line is used.

1) Cap has gone up
2) PK was terrible with McClement. It'll be difficult to be worse.
3) Raymond was terrible, yes he scored. GF wasn't this Teams issue.
4) 4th line being trusted to play more shouldn't need explaining.

 

[leafs in five]

why should we expect Randy to stop playing a 2 min a night 4th line?

 

[Gallagbi]

Bolland played ~15 good games for the Leafs last year. Trevor Smith, McClement and Holland had more GP than Bolland. Let's not pretend we had Bolland contributing to the Leafs for most of the year.

If Santorelli can stay healthy, he'll be am upgrade on our 3C from last year.

 

[Holymakinaw]

why should we expect Randy to stop playing a 2 min a night 4th line?

Because the Leafs/Nonis said as much, just last week?

Nonis(to TSN) "your 3rd and 4th line has to contribute. Good teams have theirs playing 12 mins. You can't have a 4th line that plays 3 minutes"

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

The main factor here is the flexibility created going forward. You can not discount that while Komorov at $2.95 > Kulemin at $4, and while Bolland > Frattin, Bolland at $5.25 x 5 is not the same at Frattin at $800K x 2.

It's not about how many goals each player has scored, but the new mix of players are all short term, moveable, and hungry. Whether the sum of the whole is better or worse than what we had is up in the air, but our D has shifted from offensive to a better balance between offense and defense, we have flexibility to better spread the minutes, allow young guys a chance to grab jobs, and have the cap space to make a move should one present itself.

In a "next year" view, the jury is out - but in a long term view I think the organization is better off. (IMHO)

I agree with most of this.
Long term, we're better off.

But I'm pretty certain that by adding cheaper less talented players who score less points, the actual team as of now has not improved.

 

[ginner classic]

So the Leafs downgrade in skill last year to get grit/leadership and went from 9th to 23rd overall.

So the Leafs downgrade in skill this year to get grit/leadership and will go from 23rd overall....to better?

That doesn't sound right.

This is a sad movie playing out about Nonis that any Canuck fan will remember. The issue you have is that he overvalues his assets (which can work in your favour like it did for JVR), cannot move quickly on trades (which can work in your favour like it did with Bernier), and has no capacity for evaluating hockey talent. He is a Burke knock off. A hack.


He can start with a big deal by like he did in Vancouver with Luongo and in Toronto with JVR and Bernier, but he eventually grinds himself into complete inactivity except waiver wire fodder and tinkering with the 3rd and 4th lines until the team is completely stagnant.


The Leafs cannot move ahead until they have a first line center. Everything should be put into trying to acquire or draft one. The problem is Nonis is not the guy to make that happen.