The Jim Benning & Management Megathread Part III

[arttk]

To be fair...
A middling environment is basically the state the Canucks is in these days.
What is the difference between missing the playoffs as the ninth or tenth seed...
Or making the playoffs...
But get embarrassed against a team eaten alive in the very next round?

I just think most of us realize that a team cannot have it both ways.
It is either a tank...
Or go for it.
Sure...
Most retool advocates will point to San Jose...
But Wilson just delayed the inevitable...
As that team is basically in the same shape as the Canucks.

I just think with the Sedins you are not going to be able to tank unless you really really **** it up. But then it does seem like Benning has really ****ed it up.

 

[nameless1]

I just think with the Sedins you are not going to be able to tank unless you really really **** it up. But then it does seem like Benning has really ****ed it up.

I think you nailed it.

 

[zoolander09]

Gaunce is ready for the NHL. Shinkaruk is ready to get a look. In a year or two, McCann and Virtanen will both be ready to go.

It pisses me off that we're not putting youth into our lineup because we want to try and fight for 9th place in the conference. So stupid.

gaunce is ready for the nhl?
maybe on the worst team in the league!
and yes that might be the canucks.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I just think with the Sedins you are not going to be able to tank unless you really really **** it up. But then it does seem like Benning has really ****ed it up.

And yet it was the previous GM that ****ed up the team so bad that even with the Sedins it was a bottom 6 finisher

 

[Bleach Clean]

And yet it was the previous GM that ****ed up the team so bad that even with the Sedins it was a bottom 6 finisher

That would only be relevant if one had expected that type of finish to persist into the next year (2015). A lot had to go wrong to fall to that degree, so it was unlikely to occur again. Which means on balance, a Sedin led team isn't in a good position to "rebuild".

That's why it was shocking to see the 2014 team fall apart like that coming off of 5 years of high win percentage hockey. Again, attributed to that previous GM. While here, people have seen Benning's work and are _expecting_ to be a lottery team. Big difference.

According to Gallagher, that isn't true.

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040-i-1410/gallagher-canucks-making-strange-decisions-1.325152

Do you honestly expect Benning to say he turned down a better offer for Lack because he feared playing against him while still trying to spin the narrative he's only a backup goalie? Regardless, if the offers aren't there, then don't make the trade. I would rather try trading Miller throughout the season and risk losing Lack for nothing than gift him away for a 3rd.

I think Gallagher is talking about EDM. It makes no sense: If Benning agrees with the "market" perception of Lack = back up, then why the hesitation in dealing him in the west? Why would Benning fear that alternative?

And I can't believe Pratt actually 'gets it' here. He gets it. If you can't get close to what you want for Kassian, don't move him.

As you've said: If the offers aren't there, then don't make the trade.

 

[arttk]

And yet it was the previous GM that ****ed up the team so bad that even with the Sedins it was a bottom 6 finisher

Well considering we were still in the playoff race until Henrik got injured. Shows you how much we rely on them. Once they got injure, dropped like a rock.

 

[iceburg]

Well considering we were still in the playoff race until Henrik got injured. Shows you how much we rely on them. Once they got injure, dropped like a rock.

Yup. All the way from 6th to 23rd in the draft :-/

 

[arttk]

Yup. All the way from 6th to 23rd in the draft :-/

Look at the last 5 years, the only time period we suck coincided with a Henrik injury and yet people somehow think that the team is declining.
I mean 2014 was really a bunch of unlikely things coming together.
Olympic year with condensed schedule.
Torts overplaying the crap out of the twins and Kesler.
Henrik first injury in how many games??
First time in history a head coach decided to go mma on another coach thus losing the whole room.

I mean does this stuff happen every year or something?

 

[nameless1]

Look at the last 5 years, the only time period we suck coincided with a Henrik injury and yet people somehow think that the team is declining.
I mean 2014 was really a bunch of unlikely things coming together.
Olympic year with condensed schedule.
Torts overplaying the crap out of the twins and Kesler.
Henrik first injury in how many games??
First time in history a head coach decided to go mma on another coach thus losing the whole room.

I mean does this stuff happen every year or something?

I tried to block it out of my memory.
Thanks for reminding me.
Now I am about to roll into a ball.

 

[iceburg]

Look at the last 5 years, the only time period we suck coincided with a Henrik injury and yet people somehow think that the team is declining.
I mean 2014 was really a bunch of unlikely things coming together.
Olympic year with condensed schedule.
Torts overplaying the crap out of the twins and Kesler.
Henrik first injury in how many games??
First time in history a head coach decided to go mma on another coach thus losing the whole room.

I mean does this stuff happen every year or something?

I agree. They're the reason the team isn't in the bottom 5-10 in the league. Problem is that the team, even with the Sedins, isn;t good enough to make it passed the first round of the playoffs.

 

[ahmon]

Look at the last 5 years, the only time period we suck coincided with a Henrik injury and yet people somehow think that the team is declining.
I mean 2014 was really a bunch of unlikely things coming together.
Olympic year with condensed schedule.
Torts overplaying the crap out of the twins and Kesler.
Henrik first injury in how many games??
First time in history a head coach decided to go mma on another coach thus losing the whole room.

I mean does this stuff happen every year or something?

2011 Cup Final
2012 First round loss
2013 First round sweep
2014 Miss Playoffs

Clearly the Canucks were trending upwards under Gillis, keep it coming.

Clearly we weren't declining.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Look at the last 5 years, the only time period we suck coincided with a Henrik injury and yet people somehow think that the team is declining.

Getting swept by the Sharks also sucked. Gillis couldn't keep the window open prior to that 2013 season. He was stewing in his own goalie controversy.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Teams do not always face the same challenges when trading players, that's simply not true. And simply stating they all face "challenges" is effectively saying nothing at all.

I'm reminded of the 2011 Cup Final discussion when it was pointed out that the Canucks had significantly more serious injuries to significantly more core players, and a common response was "All teams face injuries on the way to the Cup Final, good ones overcome it!". It's a pat dismissal of genuine contributing factors to outcome.

You're essentially arguing here that the ONLY mitigating factor to trade result is the brilliance of the GM.

Not "only", but the most important. The "brilliance" in first evaluating what you have, putting a price on it, and then trying to negotiate that price/perception with buyers. It's key.

On challenges faced: It's highlighting that challenges are present for every team in every deal. They don't need to be the same. They just need to be present. In the case of dealing Hamhuis and Vrbata, I see no apparent reason to elevate the potential challenges Benning faces above those faced by other GMs. Some things work against him, but other things work for him. Bottom line, precedent will ultimately be the judge. He can't escape it. No GM ever has...

 

[The Stig]

2011 Cup Final
2012 First round loss
2013 First round sweep
2014 Miss Playoffs

Clearly the Canucks were trending upwards under Gillis, keep it coming.

Clearly we weren't declining.

Yea people seem to forget about the 2012 and 2013 seasons. We were in a downward trend.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Yea people seem to forget about the 2012 and 2013 seasons. We were in a downward trend.

The 2012 team couldn't score. We were at the top because of Luongo and Schneider.

Same went for 2013 except it was more exaggerated.

 

[nameless1]

2011 Cup Final
2012 First round loss
2013 First round sweep
2014 Miss Playoffs

Clearly the Canucks were trending upwards under Gillis, keep it coming.

Clearly we weren't declining.

The Kings was the team of destiny in 2012.
The fact that it steamrolled everybody was proof.
Honestly...
There is no shame...
When the opponent went on to win it all.

2013 was really the clear sign of a decline.
That was when insightful people wanted the rebuild to start.
I have to admit...
I thought the team could still compete for a cup...
But clearly...
Even though it was still a playoff team...
That cup window was all but shut at that point.

2014 was just a weird year.
First there was the coach...
Who decided to go all out right out of the gate...
And play his best players into the ground.
Sure...
The team was in...
Or near...
First place...
But when the surprise breakout player went down...
The lack of depth was fully exposed...
And everything just fell apart.
The nail in the coffin was when the Sedins' health finally gave out.

Sure...
It was still a bubble team...
But it really was not as bad as the results suggests.
That was why the team is able to bounce back in 2015...
When it actually got worst...
But it still manage to make the playoffs.

 

[vanuck]

Yes it is.

By what measure? If it's GF/GA, he's basically been dead even over the last 2 seasons. If it's possession, he's good at keeping the play going in the right direction.

 

[Pip]

Not many are denying that the team and the core were and are declining. The 2013/14 season just made it seem much worse than it was because of Torts and all of the injuries. We went from an elite team, to a playoff team, to a borderline playoff team.

That's pretty much the cycle of most teams that reach the top. Especially since our drafting isn't very good. We WERE in a good position to retool and be competitive during the Sedins' final years while restocking out cupboards. That's the most frustrating part of this situation. We were in a very good position after that season. Now we screwed ourselves out of most of our young assets, botched trading our valuable players, and likely botched our highest pick.

 

[The Stig]

The Kings was the team of destiny in 2012.
The fact that it steamrolled everybody was proof.
Honestly...
There is no shame...
When the opponent went on to win it all.

2013 was really the clear sign of a decline.
That was when insightful people wanted the rebuild to start.
I have to admit...
I thought the team could still compete for a cup...
But clearly...
Even though it was still a playoff team...
That cup window was all but shut at that point.

2014 was just a weird year.
First there was the coach...
Who decided to go all out right out of the gate...
And play his best players into the ground.
Sure...
The team was in...
Or near...
First place...
But when the surprise breakout player went down...
The lack of depth was fully exposed...
And everything just fell apart.
The nail in the coffin was when the Sedins' health finally gave out.

Sure...
It was still a bubble team...
But it really was not as bad as the results suggests.
That was why the team is able to bounce back in 2015...
When it actually got worst...
But it still manage to make the playoffs.

God damn you make that hard to read.
The thing is, did we get worse? Because we added scoring and the Sedins bounced back. We went from 25th overall to a 101pt team. People keep saying we got worse but I've yet to actually see any evidence of that.

 

[ahmon]

Not many are denying that the team and the core were and are declining. The 2013/14 season just made it seem much worse than it was because of Torts and all of the injuries. We went from an elite team, to a playoff team, to a borderline playoff team.

That's pretty much the cycle of most teams that reach the top. Especially since our drafting isn't very good. We WERE in a good position to retool and be competitive during the Sedins' final years while restocking out cupboards. That's the most frustrating part of this situation. We were in a very good position after that season. Now we screwed ourselves out of most of our young assets, botched trading our valuable players, and likely botched our highest pick.

Well the poster I responded to clearly denied it.

 

[The Stig]

By what measure? If it's GF/GA, he's basically been dead even over the last 2 seasons. If it's possession, he's good at keeping the play going in the right direction.

Consistency. Going 20+ games without a goal isn't good no matter who you are. He's injury prone and had off ice issues.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Not many are denying that the team and the core were and are declining. The 2013/14 season just made it seem much worse than it was because of Torts and all of the injuries. We went from an elite team, to a playoff team, to a borderline playoff team.

That's pretty much the cycle of most teams that reach the top. Especially since our drafting isn't very good. We WERE in a good position to retool and be competitive during the Sedins' final years while restocking out cupboards. That's the most frustrating part of this situation. We were in a very good position after that season. Now we screwed ourselves out of most of our young assets, botched trading our valuable players, and likely botched our highest pick.

Exactly.

No one was against a "re-tool" of sorts, but Jim Benning completely botched it so badly that it's become a full on rebuild.

Our future looks worse now than it did under Gillis.

Sure we have a few more young players, but Benning got such little value for our players and honestly hasn't drafted any better than Gillis (Who has gone on record saying that he wanted Nylander/Ehlers).

Basically it's like we had a $100 bill, and we wanted some change.

So Jim Benning comes along and gives us $35 in toonies, loonies and quarters.

And now people are defending Benning saying "under Gillis we had no change! Look at all the change Benning brought us! He's a great GM!"

Except they're overlooking the $65 that Benning pissed away, claiming that it "wasn't worth as much as you think it was."

 

[The Stig]

Exactly.

No one was against a "re-tool" of sorts, but Jim Benning completely botched it so badly that it's become a full on rebuild.

Our future looks worse now than it did under Gillis.

Sure we have a few more young players, but Benning got such little value for our players and honestly hasn't drafted any better than Gillis (Who has gone on record saying that he wanted Nylander/Ehlers).

Basically it's like we had a $100 bill, and we wanted some change.

So Jim Benning comes along and gives us $35 in toonies, loonies and quarters.

And now people are defending Benning saying "under Gillis we had no change! Look at all the change Benning brought us! He's a great GM!"

Except they're overlooking the $65 that Benning pissed away, claiming that it "wasn't worth as much as you think it was."

In what plausible way does the future look worse now?

 

[ahmon]

Exactly.

No one was against a "re-tool" of sorts, but Jim Benning completely botched it so badly that it's become a full on rebuild.

Our future looks worse now than it did under Gillis.

Sure we have a few more young players, but Benning got such little value for our players and honestly hasn't drafted any better than Gillis (Who has gone on record saying that he wanted Nylander/Ehlers).

Basically it's like we had a $100 bill, and we wanted some change.

So Jim Benning comes along and gives us $35 in toonies, loonies and quarters.

And now people are defending Benning saying "under Gillis we had no change! Look at all the change Benning brought us! He's a great GM!"

Except they're overlooking the $65 that Benning pissed away, claiming that it "wasn't worth as much as you think it was."

Maybe there are ALSO some people who can look at it objectively and see that with Gillis we were declining, so we needed change. Firing him was the right decision.

However that doesn't excuse the fact that Benning HAS done some terrible moves.

But to change history that the Canucks were doing GREAT under Gillis is not true.

We did need change, but Benning is not the right one.

Essentially we went from a terrible GM, to another terrible GM.

 

[Pip]

I don't think Gillis not preventing the decline of the Sedin lead core makes him a "terrible GM"

Unless you're Detroit or maybe Chicago, you will eventually dip down before rising back up. I would have trusted Gillis with retooling/rebuilding this team.

In what plausible way does the future look worse now?

We have lost a lot of valuable pieces for underwhelming returns and outside of Horvat and Tanev I'm skeptical that any of our players or prospects will be core players for us going forward.

Considering that we are not good cap wise and have rumoured to be interested in declining players like Lucic I think the future looks extremely bleak.

Before Benning was hired we had a valuable piece to move (Kesler), a good young goalie in Lack, a high first round pick and a solid defensive core. Not a bad situation to walk into at all.