The problem is this takes a foresight our current management has never possessed.
MB will keep the Tatar's and Petry's and Byron's and polish them.
Post-Game Talk: The Habs are bad and they should feel bad. Blow lead and lose 3-2 in OT vs BUF
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The problem is this takes a foresight our current management has never possessed.
MB will keep the Tatar's and Petry's and Byron's and polish them.
Deluded Puck
Registered User
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
I see the pro-tankers have come out in full force again. Seeing as the Sabres are a source of their angst, let's take a look at this wonderful Buffalo team. The Sabres have a nice collection of young prospects but this collection isn't going to bring them anywhere near to even sniffing the jockstraps of the next 10 Cup winners. But let's put my analysis to one side and assume that Buffalo has assumed a potential cup contender.
They were out of the playoffs 8 of the last 10 years. And this is the best they can do. The Habs have been out of the playoffs 2 of the last 3 (3 of the last 6 years). So if you pro-tankers are intellectually honest we will have to tank 6 of the next 7 years to collect talent on par with the Sabres. Who is willing to wait 7 years?
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It's a slippery slope eh, I mean look at the Sabres or Oilers and having a rough time, drafting high gurantees nothing...and the Habs always seem stuck in the middle. not wanting to tank, and just enough talent at times to make da playoff...
The last 4 seasons have been terrible, but this past summer, we hit some luck, so I honestly think we are closer to being competative again than being bad real bad again....I just can't fathom leaving MB at the helm, with the let's make da playoff, and who knows what can happen mantra...
The one thing I know for certain, this ears group early on has me watching more than the last couple of years, when we were boring and couldn't score in a soccer net.............it's been more entertaining this season, and a little food for though here, we are 3 pts behind the Mighty Leafs...a quarter of the season in...just throwing it out there.
LaP
Registered User
It has nothing to do with tanking. Absolutely nothing. It's 100% about managing your assets in an optional way. People will fall back to earth with Tatar eventually. I'll be there to remind to those people that not trading him was a mistake.
Simarino
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- Oct 21, 2009
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Not trading him when his value was at is lowest at the beginning of the season was a very good thing, we can even keep him till mid season next year when Sherback,Suzuki or whoever(ufa signing,Panarin,Stone) are ready to step in and we should do the same thing with Petry, use him as a stop gap till one of Juulsen or Brook is ready for 2nd RD duty.
cphabs
The 2 stooges….
- Dec 21, 2012
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Damn it! I live around Buffalo and went to breakfast with friends this morning. The table next to ours had Sabre’s fans talking about the game for the entire time. Seriously! “Our power play is so good” “those Canadians stink” “stupid penalty” and on and on...
It only took them 6 years of sucking and getting high draft picks to finally win games!
I didnt think the habs played all that bad. They did deserve the win. 4 on 3 is tough because theres so much room out there.
Deluded Puck
Registered User
We’ve already been waiting 25 years!
For every buffalo and Edmonton who made missteps in their rebuilding, there is a Chicago, Washington, LA, and Pittsburgh (who have won 9 out of the past 10 cups) who all built properly around their stud lottery picks after tanking.
But why let facts get in the way?
Born in 1909
Hockey Royalty
Trading Byron is pretty ruthless stuff... although I can appreciate the value of picking high in a draft.
For the Habs, its also about spotting/scouting/projecting junior talent and not picking so many 1st round busts/disappointments.
Passing on Giroux
Passing on Kuznetsov
Passing on Duclair
Passing on Gostisbehere
Passing on Gaudreau
Passing on Kucherov
Passing on Palat
Passing on O'Reilly
Passing on Mark Stone even...
(Its obviously been talked about plenty...)
Grate n Colorful Oz
Hutson Hawk
LaP
Registered User
Not more than trading Subban who loved the city, the team and was a fan favorite (despite many fans hating him for a reason i have yet to understand).
I understand why lot of fans love Byron but hockey is a business if you get a good offer imo you got to move. We improved our prospects pool but not enough to try to win now imo. I'm not saying we should tank but we should ice kids and trade some vets. If the kids are good enough to make the playoffs then so be it.
I would keep Weber but the other vets would be available for the right price.
Habs
We should have drafted Michkov
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OldCraig71
Registered User
I wish I could have been with you this morning, we would have been kicked out of that place lol.
Grate n Colorful Oz
Hutson Hawk
Buffalo is missing a bit of depth a good goalie and experience. They'll be a force in the next few years. They have all their major bases covered except for the goalie position.
And taking one example is just ridiculous. Your fallacy about waiting 7 years is even worst. Taking any example which is part of a small market to compare with the Habs is assinine, because their level of talent retention vs their purse is totally different and hence their decision making vs talent and expenses is different, which brings different outcomes. Bigger Markets usually do it faster as they have the full means for talent retention AND a higher imperative to compete quickly.
You just refuse to understand the higher risk of staying in the middle pack. Your chances at higher talent are lower. There's no other way around it, especially for a team like Montreal which has a hard time getting high value players on the open market.
What is happening with the Habs right now was obvious and predictable.
Instead of fighting it by tightnening defense while foregoing offense, which in the end won't change our fate when it comes to making the playoffs or getting eliminated in the 1st round, but will make the team boring, when all they have to do is to keep them rolling offensively. Let them have fun until we do have a defense worth of the name, fans will have fun, we'll still lose, but at least the ride will be enjoyable.
I really don't mind losing when we score 3 to 5 goals.
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Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
Edmonton, Carolina, Arizona, Florida. No, what is ridiculous is the pro-tankers inability or unwillingness to count and reason.
Here are the Cup winners of the last few years and their top picks 12 years previous to their cup wins.
Washington: Forsberg, Vrana, Alzner - Forsberg and Alzner were not there for the win and they got nothing in return for them. I'll even throw in Ovechkin.
Chicago: Kane, Toews, Skille, Baker, Seabrooke - only three of those players contributed
L.A. Schenn, Doughty, Hickey, Kopitar, Bernier - two players were there for the cup wins -two got them spare parts in trades - Schenn was part of a big trade
Pittsburg: Pouliot, Staal, Crosby, Malkin
Presently top picks in the organization we have Drouin, Kotkaniemi, Price, Suzuki, Domi, Armia and Alzner lol(the joker of the group). Without counting the joker we have 5 (6 if you count Armia) top picks in the organization more than any of the previous cup winners of the past 10 years. How many top picks would you like to have? 10? 20?
We've tanked 2 of the last 3 years, 3 of the last 6 and we got 4 top picks in the last 13 years. It's time to start building through trades and UFAs like ALL the cup winners of the past 10 years (which would include Boston). They didn't play like losers for 12 years and just reaped top picks after top picks. But if you listen to the pro-tankers that's the best way to build a team. To be a perennial loser.
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And before that he was traded for a first , second , and third round pick. If Tatar keeps putting points on the board he will have a great value at the deadline
HabsWhiteKnightLOL
Registered User
100% agree with u about this post and ur last one in this thread.
Habs fans need to think more about this season. Habs wont get better this season. The second Domi will not produce 2 points a night and Andrew Shaw playing the hockey of his life. I dont see this team being good enough to win 2 games in playoffs let alone make them
Petry value right now is insanely high , if we were deadline we could fetch a 1st round + A prospect atleast. Literally all teams are dying to find a good d-man.
Habs Offensive is still awful imo. bottom 6 is awful minus Kotkaniemi. Danault dont belong on a 2nd center. Shaw is not a 1st liner. We have no NHL caliber RHD which is freaking sad.
We need to chill and bankup picks and sell players at high value for atleast 1-2 years. The Lucky start make people think we have a good team which is not true.
Grate n Colorful Oz
Hutson Hawk
Your arguments are so convulated and all over the place.
You take series of examples that exclude other contenders, as if by definition, only cup winners are contenders. All four of those teams had many top 5 and top 10 picks notwithstanding an arbitrary number of years for their picks (which excludes Ovy and Backstrom in Washington's case).
The point is not to be a perrenial loser. The point is having holes in our asset pool for the time being until our last few drafts come to fruition. You WON'T be able to fill this lack of assets by trading as this only scales up your asset pool by small increments and there are only so few trades you can make, and forget about the UFA market. Bergevin is quoted as saying he doesn't believe in it AND hasn't had much success in it except for one signing in 6 years.
The only way to add premium assets is through draft picks, whether you trade them or bank them.
Now that's where the choice lies. Either you want to compete and trade futures to forgo development years, or you become consequent with the lack of assets to compete in the present moment and need to develop a young asset base. The choice also lies in knowing whether your present youth base is strong enough going further or do we need to add to it. I think most will agree that despite having a few really good prospects, if the actual goal is to build a contender then you need to keep filling until you feel you have enough. I don't see us competing at the moment, and I don't think our asset pool is strong enough for the future, although it's a lot closer now, which means we won't have to do this excercise for that many years. You need to this excercise yearly. You can't be in between telling yourself "Oh you want 7 years of tanking". It's just ridiculous. I feel that considering the age of some of our better prospects, we are right now at a minimum of 2 years before really competing.
The point is about where we are RIGHT NOW. WE. Not Buffalo. Not Chicago. Not in 2 years, not 2 years ago, not 5 years from now.
The point is that we don't have the assets to compete in the present, even with Weber back, it is obvious this defense won't take us anywhere further than top 15-20 limbo. The other part of where we are is where are our best prospects? Almost all between 18 and 21 and they are the bigger part of our asset pool. Our best prospects all need seasoning before they'll have an impact. For this year, for this season, the logical thing would be to sell some of the older pieces that you might not keep by the time those prospects will be seasoned enough. What will be Weber's worth when all of Kotka, Suzuki, Poehling, Brook, ect will be ready to make us contenders?
All the teams you named as cup winners had gone through these type of decisions and sometimes went with one, selling, sometimes with the other, competing, but it's obvious that their best players, the ones who were central to their cups, were mostly all top draftees. And it's not a matter of how many top picks you get, or how many are on your team, but to play this random game of the draft and put the odds in your favor to get premium talent.
And you puff up and feel insulted, but you were the one condescending tankers in the first place. Keep on playing the victim.
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blarneylad
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- Feb 1, 2009
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The debate I recall was would Matthews had been born earlier to qualify for that draft would Eichel or Matthews be number 2.
I was surprised myself though in OT how they relied on Ristolinen so much to shoot and not Eichel. There was a few moments where I thought he should have curled towards the net and let a shot go. Habs 3rd guy was playing high and left an opening but Eichel went back towards the blue line to move it around the top. If I was coaching Eichel I would want him having more desire to bring it to the net and score. Having said all that they ended up scoring so who am I to judge.
LaP
Registered User
LaP
Registered User
It still is. Bit if he keeps playing like that we might be able to find a fish at the deadline or next summer. If we find our fish we should not hesitate one little second.
The only way the habs sell at the trade deadline is if they are out of the playoffs by 6 + points. You don't trade Petry before you see what Weber has left in him. If they are way out of the playoff at the deadline than you can trade 1 of them it will help the tank and the expansion draft problem. You can also trade one of Tatar or Byron.
If they are in the playoff race, they should not trade anyone outside of maybe Byron who is small and injury prone. I Don't think he is built for the playoffs. You trade Weber or Petry next year if Brook is ready as a top 3 d-man. The window to tank probably closed when Price signed is contract. Unless an offer is too good to pass like the Pacioretty deal, I Don't think they should trade Weber, Petry or Tatar before other players has proved they can replace them.
If they are in the playoff race, they should not trade anyone outside of maybe Byron who is small and injury prone. I Don't think he is built for the playoffs. You trade Weber or Petry next year if Brook is ready as a top 3 d-man. The window to tank probably closed when Price signed is contract. Unless an offer is too good to pass like the Pacioretty deal, I Don't think they should trade Weber, Petry or Tatar before other players has proved they can replace them.
ECWHSWI
TOUGHEN UP.
- Oct 27, 2006
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actually, if YOU were intelectually honest you would not mention this as it's obvious not every prospect has the same talent and thus building a solid team doesnt take the same amount of prospects and whatnot...
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