The Great One vs Super Mario

[greatgazoo]

Next I want Mario fans to say that he had "no protection".

Because guys like Jay Caufield, Kevin Stevens didn't know how to fight right?

What a joke.

 

[golfortennis]

I can't remember this one...show me a video if you guys have any, but really we are talking about a guy that receive what? maybe 1 or 2 heavy hit per year...that's why he played 21 season. In today's hockey, a guy of his stature with even more talent than Gretzky had could not break into the NHL. Even back then, Gretzky wasn't able to defend himself and was like Bambie on ice falling on every hit...

I'm pretty sure his wife had more stitches from the Ulf Samuelson incident when she got hit by the glass than Gretzky did in is entire career...
I'm being sarcastic but seriously i'm pretty sure that was close.

Yep, the 6'1" Gretzky was protected his entire career by an unwritten rule.

I really wish the 5'8" Martin St. Louis could have had a shot at a scoring title, or the 5'10" Patrick Kane could have gotten a shot at the NHL, but alas, they couldn't break into the NHL.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I find it hard to believe that you could convince an entire league of professional hockey players (who are not only some of the most naturally competitive people on the planet, but also whose livelihoods are directly related to whether they win or lose hockey games) that they were "not allowed" to play physical against the best player in the league who is tearing it up every night in a way no one had ever seen. The players wouldn't stand for it, the coaches wouldn't stand for it, and the fans wouldn't stand for it. Gretzky was probably protected from VERY DIRTY play, just like the superstars in every professional league, but to say he was protected from clean physical play is ridiculous.

 

[revolverjgw]

Yep, the 6'1" Gretzky was protected his entire career by an unwritten rule.

I really wish the 5'8" Martin St. Louis could have had a shot at a scoring title, or the 5'10" Patrick Kane could have gotten a shot at the NHL, but alas, they couldn't break into the NHL.

Gretzky is listed at 6'0'', not 6'1''... and in reality he's barely 5'11. But yeah, your point stands. Size isn't THAT big an issue for him, especially since if he was playing now, physical training would certainly be a bigger focus for him. And the rules almost seem custom-made for him... two-line passes are allowed and strict penalty calling for every lovetap? Gretzky could exploit the rules now more than ever.

Gretzky was a creampuff but it's absurd to think there was some conspiracy to protect him. Anybody that thinks that just doesn't understand hockey players. We didn't see him get crushed by Scott Stevens very often because he knew how to avoid putting himself in that position. But he DID get crushed by Scott Stevens on rare occasions, because nobody's perfect. Hitting him was allowed, and did happen, and if Stevens or Rich Pilon COULD have smashed him more often, they WOULD have. Who could honestly believe that someone like Stevens would lay off at his team's expense?

 

[Noldo]

Gretzky was a creampuff but it's absurd to think there was some conspiracy to protect him. Anybody that thinks that just doesn't understand hockey players. We didn't see him get crushed by Scott Stevens very often because he knew how to avoid putting himself in that position. But he DID get crushed by Scott Stevens on rare occasions, because nobody's perfect. Hitting him was allowed, and did happen, and if Stevens or Rich Pilon COULD have smashed him more often, they WOULD have. Who could honestly believe that someone like Stevens would lay off at his team's expense?

During Gretzky's era, how common it was to nail players after they had gotten rid of puck?

Nowadays forecheckers quite constantly finish their checks, in other words, nail the player althoug he did got rid of puck few moments earlier. On the other hand, Gretzky was surely the most skilled seeing the play unfold and anticipating the flow, meaning that he would be very rary get caught with the puck.

Was the deterrent of getting yourself out of position (and against Gretzky, that very likely resulted the puck ending on Coffey's or Kurri's stick, en route to defending teams goal) sufficient to prevent players from finishing their checks against Gretzky after he had just flipped the puck to teammate?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I can't remember this one...show me a video if you guys have any, but really we are talking about a guy that receive what? maybe 1 or 2 heavy hit per year...that's why he played 21 season. In today's hockey, a guy of his stature with even more talent than Gretzky had could not break into the NHL. Even back then, Gretzky wasn't able to defend himself and was like Bambie on ice falling on every hit...

I'm pretty sure his wife had more stitches from the Ulf Samuelson incident when she got hit by the glass than Gretzky did in is entire career...
I'm being sarcastic but seriously i'm pretty sure that was close.

the fact that you don't remember this probably indicates that you didn't actually see very much of gretzky's career. so, who has more credibility in this argument? the guy who doesn't even remember the biggest and most talked about hit in gretzky's career, or the guys who watched him and remember how skillful he was at avoiding hits?

EDIT: this is re: the suter mugging in the '91 canada cup.

 

[Topgoon]

Someone said this before on the forums (I can't seem to find the post) and I believe it describes the comparison between Mario and Gretzky perfectly. It went something like this:

You can see Mario's talents - when he has the puck, the game seems to slow down and you witness every deke, every play, and every shot. Gretzky's talent, however, is much harder to see, and thus appreciate, with our mortal eyes. The game speeds up when he is out there, the puck flows quicker, and before you know it, its in the back of the opposition net and you have no idea what Gretzky did to get it there.

If I must choose between these two legends, I'll look at how they performed when things counted the most, and when comparing playoff performances, I believe the Great One has demonstrated a greater ability to adapt and contribute to his teams. I say this not only of statistical superiority, but because I personally watched him extend the Leaf's cupless streak... in an Era that Mario was dominating, it was Gretzky that still impressed me the most.

 

[golfortennis]

During Gretzky's era, how common it was to nail players after they had gotten rid of puck?

Nowadays forecheckers quite constantly finish their checks, in other words, nail the player althoug he did got rid of puck few moments earlier. On the other hand, Gretzky was surely the most skilled seeing the play unfold and anticipating the flow, meaning that he would be very rary get caught with the puck.

Was the deterrent of getting yourself out of position (and against Gretzky, that very likely resulted the puck ending on Coffey's or Kurri's stick, en route to defending teams goal) sufficient to prevent players from finishing their checks against Gretzky after he had just flipped the puck to teammate?

You are right. Interference(let's call a spade a spade--"finishing your check" is a euphemism to make the interference it really is seem legit) might have had an effect. Remember as well that this form of interference took hold during the obstruction era. It may have been worth going after Gretzky at that time because even if he did pass it, Kurri and Coffey probably couldn't have done much with it since they would be getting mugged before the puck got to them.

 

[trader997]

Yep, the 6'1" Gretzky was protected his entire career by an unwritten rule.

I really wish the 5'8" Martin St. Louis could have had a shot at a scoring title, or the 5'10" Patrick Kane could have gotten a shot at the NHL, but alas, they couldn't break into the NHL.

How can you compare the tall and skinny Gretzky to Martin St-Louis or Pat Kane. Kane and St-Louis both have strong legs and pelvis, they are built from the bottom, they are small but big. You could add Crosby to that category. Seriously, Gretzky was about 160-165 pounds, the biggest he's been was 175 at the end of his career. Name me a guy in the NHL right now that is about 160-170 and his 6'0'' or 6'1''. There is none. It's a different game today and nobody with his stature would crack a lineup with Gretzky's talent.

look at how Gretzky's legs are skinny in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeDmp2Hz2o

Just look at this one where he falls so easily in a fight against Neal Broten, Broten barely touched him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZ...528DD7F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41

He was a great player, i'm not taking anything from him except the fact that his reputation helped him from getting major hits. Also, it helped him extend his career after the mid 90's playing in the years of a trapping system because he was Wayne Gretzky, the guy that everyone respected. Like i said, replace him by a no name player that nobody has ever heard of with the same physique and talent Gretzky had, and he would never crack a lineup in today's NHL and specially in the years of the trap.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

How can you compare the tall and skinny Gretzky to Martin St-Louis or Pat Kane. Kane and St-Louis both have strong legs and pelvis, they are built from the bottom, they are small but big. You could add Crosby to that category. Seriously, Gretzky was about 160-165 pounds, the biggest he's been was 175 at the end of his career. Name me a guy in the NHL right now that is about 160-170 and his 6'0'' or 6'1''. There is none. It's a different game today and nobody with his stature would crack a lineup with Gretzky's talent.

look at how Gretzky's legs are skinny in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeDmp2Hz2o

Just look at this one where he falls so easily in a fight against Neal Broten, Broten barely touched him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZ...528DD7F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41

He was a great player, i'm not taking anything from him except the fact that his reputation helped him from getting major hits. Also, it helped him extend his career after the mid 90's playing in the years of a trapping system because he was Wayne Gretzky, the guy that everyone respected. Like i said, replace him by a no name player that nobody has ever heard of with the same physique and talent Gretzky had, and he would never crack a lineup in today's NHL and specially in the years of the trap.

So help me understand: you're using the fact that Gretzky was undoubtedly endowed with a less than ideal physical frame (Gretzky 6'0" 170lb, Lemieux 6'4" 230lb) to argue that Lemieux was the more skilled nhl player?

Your argument that Gretzky somehow held the respect of opposing players so much that he was never hit is flattering, but ludicrous. Are you telling me that a player like Bobby Orr didn't hold equal respect in the league when he was playing? The fact is that Grezky played a style of play where he could avoid contact and still dominate offensively; while players like Orr and Lemieux, gifted with big frames, did not.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

How can you compare the tall and skinny Gretzky to Martin St-Louis or Pat Kane. Kane and St-Louis both have strong legs and pelvis, they are built from the bottom, they are small but big. You could add Crosby to that category. Seriously, Gretzky was about 160-165 pounds, the biggest he's been was 175 at the end of his career. Name me a guy in the NHL right now that is about 160-170 and his 6'0'' or 6'1''. There is none. It's a different game today and nobody with his stature would crack a lineup with Gretzky's talent.

look at how Gretzky's legs are skinny in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeDmp2Hz2o

Just look at this one where he falls so easily in a fight against Neal Broten, Broten barely touched him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZ...528DD7F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41

He was a great player, i'm not taking anything from him except the fact that his reputation helped him from getting major hits. Also, it helped him extend his career after the mid 90's playing in the years of a trapping system because he was Wayne Gretzky, the guy that everyone respected. Like i said, replace him by a no name player that nobody has ever heard of with the same physique and talent Gretzky had, and he would never crack a lineup in today's NHL and specially in the years of the trap.

So let me get this straight? The NHL has changed so much in the last 15 years that the player whom most consider to be the greatest of all time couldn't even make an NHL lineup right now??? You have got to be kidding me.

 

[lextune]

He's not kidding....We see people who never saw Gretz play pop up every once and a while that say all this same thoughtless crap.

He truly believes that if Scott Stevens had a chance to line up Gretz with a perfectly clean, brutal hit, he wouldn't do it....

....Out of some "unwritten" rule, lol.

Really.

...I know. It's insane.

I've actually talked to people who believe this too. I've asked them point blank, "so Stevens would pass up the hit, and perhaps by doing so make the likelihood of Gretzky scoring (or setting up a goal) more likely...? You think he'd be alright with that?"

One either gets no response at all or some inane reply like "he'd stop him, (or try to), in some other way, no way he would just run him down"

Yeah....this is where we are supposed to believe that Scott Stevens, (and others of his ilk), were deathly afraid of Dave Semenko.


....never let logic get in the way of a good conspiracy theory,

 

[Salsa Shark]

Gretzky 255 points in 98 games in perhaps his best season (including playoffs.)

Mario's best was 92-93? He had 160 in 60, plus 18 more in 11 playoff games.

255 in 98 2.60 PPG
178 in 71 2.51 PPG

So Lemieux supporters talk about points per game and such, but when playoffs are taken into account for the two players' best seasons, Gretzky beats Mario even in this aspect.

Something to consider

 

[Topgoon]

I never understood the points per game argument though... if you're simply taking their best PPG regular seasons, Gretzky wins out completely:

Gretzky's Highest PPG Years
205 pts in 74 games:2.7702
215 pts in 80 games:2.6875
212 pts in 80 games:2.6500

Lemieux's Highest PPG Years
160 pts in 60 games:2.6667
199 pts in 76 games:2.6184
168 pts in 77 games:2.1818

I think you can very easily make a case for Lemieux based on many other things, but stats has always been Gretzky's category of dominance.

 

[Salsa Shark]

I never understood the points per game argument though... if you're simply taking their best PPG regular seasons, Gretzky wins out completely:

Gretzky's Highest PPG Years
205 pts in 74 games:2.7702
215 pts in 80 games:2.6875
212 pts in 80 games:2.6500

Lemieux's Highest PPG Years
160 pts in 60 games:2.6667
199 pts in 76 games:2.6184
168 pts in 77 games:2.1818

Right but it seems to always be "Lemieux was on pace for 97 goals and 225 points in 93" and so on from the Mario supporters. Their entire argument is based on what could have been. How can this type of reasoning be taken seriously

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I saw Mario regularly being a Rangers fan and he truly was unstoppable, but IMHO I think Gretz was just a smarter player in so many ways over mario, to include being able to sustain and play through injuries.

Cancer aside, mario had way too many health issues and I have to knock off points for that. Plus, Mario reached only 2 SCF in almost a 20-year career while it was quite obvious that Gretzky single-handedly carried a very mediocre/inexperienced team to a legal stick blade's curve from a SC.

 

[Chrisgo]

I never understood the points per game argument though... if you're simply taking their best PPG regular seasons, Gretzky wins out completely:

Gretzky's Highest PPG Years
205 pts in 74 games:2.7702
215 pts in 80 games:2.6875
212 pts in 80 games:2.6500

Lemieux's Highest PPG Years
160 pts in 60 games:2.6667
199 pts in 76 games:2.6184
168 pts in 77 games:2.1818

I think you can very easily make a case for Lemieux based on many other things, but stats has always been Gretzky's category of dominance.

You forgot that Lemieux had 161 points in 70 games in 95-96 witch is 2,3 ppg, in an era when scoring was lower than in the 80s...

 

[Lounge Act*]

God the argument from the Gretzky detractors are hilarious. "He never got hit!" are you serious? Go back and watch the '83 when he was held scoreless - Pens fans will say anything to convince themselves Gretzky is behind Mario, it really is amusing. And if they want to pull out the PPG argument, a few years ago I put together the stats of PPG in the playoffs and it wasn't that close. Gretzky also had back problems after a dirty hit from Suter after the Canada Cup so the injury argument loses its luster.

It really is...illuminating when these arguments come up. You can see sift through hockey fans who know the game vs. ignorant tweens who were born yesterday and have an opinion despite never seeing Gretzky play.

 

[85highlander]

God the argument from the Gretzky detractors are hilarious. "He never got hit!" are you serious? Go back and watch the '83 when he was held scoreless - Pens fans will say anything to convince themselves Gretzky is behind Mario, it really is amusing. And if they want to pull out the PPG argument, a few years ago I put together the stats of PPG in the playoffs and it wasn't that close. Gretzky also had back problems after a dirty hit from Suter after the Canada Cup so the injury argument loses its luster.

It really is...illuminating when these arguments come up. You can see sift through hockey fans who know the game vs. ignorant tweens who were born yesterday and have an opinion despite never seeing Gretzky play.

Okay, lets forget about the hits that Gretzky didn't receive or did receive. Can anyone please provide some footage of the hits the Gretzky dished out....? You know, like a good hard body check where the other guy gets knocked down? Not the ample footage of Gretzky getting knocked down or out --- but the other way around....?

Because hockey remains a physical game, I think this comparison is worth noting for the "Big Four"

G. Howe played in 2187 games (NHL and WHA) and had 25 fighting majors.

B. Orr played in 657 games and had 47 fighting majors.

W. Gretzky played in 1567 (NHL and WHA) and had 7 fighting majors.

M. Lemieux played in 915 games and had 7 fighting majors.

Bobby Orr played in far less games and had more fights (657 games with 47 fights) than Howe, Gretzky, and Lemieux combined (4669 games with 39 fights).

Yes, I like Bobby Orr.

 

[golfortennis]

Okay, lets forget about the hits that Gretzky didn't receive or did receive. Can anyone please provide some footage of the hits the Gretzky dished out....? You know, like a good hard body check where the other guy gets knocked down? Not the ample footage of Gretzky getting knocked down or out --- but the other way around....?

Because hockey remains a physical game, I think this comparison is worth noting for the "Big Four"

G. Howe played in 2187 games (NHL and WHA) and had 25 fighting majors.

B. Orr played in 657 games and had 47 fighting majors.

W. Gretzky played in 1567 (NHL and WHA) and had 7 fighting majors.

M. Lemieux played in 915 games and had 7 fighting majors.

Bobby Orr played in far less games and had more fights (657 games with 47 fights) than Howe, Gretzky, and Lemieux combined (4669 games with 39 fights).

Yes, I like Bobby Orr.

You know, I went back as far as I could through flyersHSP's site, and could not find a single game where the W was awarded on the basis of having more fights. every one of them, however was awarded on the basis of who scored more goals. And on the basis of wins, they decide standings, which decide playoff seedings, and wins in the playoffs decide Stanley Cups.

Ask the Flames how happy they were Iginla fights his own battles when he missed like 12 games a few years ago from breaking his hand in a fight. "Our leading scorer is out, but he fought his own battles!!" Please.

 

[85highlander]

You know, I went back as far as I could through flyersHSP's site, and could not find a single game where the W was awarded on the basis of having more fights. every one of them, however was awarded on the basis of who scored more goals. And on the basis of wins, they decide standings, which decide playoff seedings, and wins in the playoffs decide Stanley Cups.

Ask the Flames how happy they were Iginla fights his own battles when he missed like 12 games a few years ago from breaking his hand in a fight. "Our leading scorer is out, but he fought his own battles!!" Please.

I'm not speaking only of a fight card, I'm talking about any presence of a physical game...

This remains a part of the game, no....?

What pisses me off is how this is so easily disregarded --- someone got Gretzky or Lemieux the puck in the first place....

It's not like Gretzky checked someone off the puck to get it, or dug in the corner for it (Lemieux did more of this than Gretzky)...

Orr dug, smacked, checked, and blocked shots to get the friggin puck, all the dirty work AND then did the things the others did, when he wasns't kicking somebody's ass for mixing it up during the beforehand mentioned duties (checking, corner work, etc....which occasionally leads to fights).

The physical game contributes to W's -- Lemieux did it more than Gretzky -- Orr did it more than both of them combined.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I'm not speaking only of a fight card, I'm talking about any presence of a physical game...

This remains a part of the game, no....?

What pisses me off is how this is so easily disregarded --- someone got Gretzky or Lemieux the puck in the first place....

It's not like Gretzky checked someone off the puck to get it, or dug in the corner for it (Lemieux did more of this than Gretzky)...

Orr dug, smacked, checked, and blocked shots to get the friggin puck, all the dirty work AND then did the things the others did, when he wasns't kicking somebody's ass for mixing it up during the beforehand mentioned duties (checking, corner work, etc....which occasionally leads to fights).

The physical game contributes to W's -- Lemieux did it more than Gretzky -- Orr did it more than both of them combined.

The thing is, any shmo can do the dirty work. There really isn't any talent involved in mucking, grinding and fighting - you only need to do that stuff if you don't have the talent to be a great scorer. So, why would it make sense for the greatest players in the game to waste their talent in the corners when anybody could do that stuff? Should the CEO of a company clean the bathrooms? It is a complete waste.

So, having Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe or Orr spending 5 minutes in the penalty box is not the way to win hockey games. I don't see how taking your best player off the ice for an extended period makes your team better. Send out Semenko, Caufield or Wensink to fight - you don't need your best players to waste their talent mucking and grinding. If you send Gretzky or Lemieux mucking in the corners all the time and have Semenko or Caufiled in front of the next what is going to happen? Do you honestly think the grinders are going to be able to put the puck in the net after the superstar gets it out of the corner for them?

Players have a role and when you have the ability to put up 200 points a season, that role is not to be battling in the corners and fighting.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm not speaking only of a fight card, I'm talking about any presence of a physical game...

This remains a part of the game, no....?

What pisses me off is how this is so easily disregarded --- someone got Gretzky or Lemieux the puck in the first place....

It's not like Gretzky checked someone off the puck to get it, or dug in the corner for it (Lemieux did more of this than Gretzky)...

Orr dug, smacked, checked, and blocked shots to get the friggin puck, all the dirty work AND then did the things the others did, when he wasns't kicking somebody's ass for mixing it up during the beforehand mentioned duties (checking, corner work, etc....which occasionally leads to fights).

The physical game contributes to W's -- Lemieux did it more than Gretzky -- Orr did it more than both of them combined.

I agree that Gretzky didn't have much of a physical game, but he did actually create a lot of turnovers. He was very good at anticipating the play and picking off passes. I would say he was better at doing this than Lemieux. So while Lemieux may have the physical edge, I give Gretzky the edge here.

Orr, I have not seen enough of to make a statement, but I have a feeling he would again be in a whole different world than these two.

 

[polmaniac932]

How can you compare the tall and skinny Gretzky to Martin St-Louis or Pat Kane. Kane and St-Louis both have strong legs and pelvis, they are built from the bottom, they are small but big. You could add Crosby to that category. Seriously, Gretzky was about 160-165 pounds, the biggest he's been was 175 at the end of his career. Name me a guy in the NHL right now that is about 160-170 and his 6'0'' or 6'1''. There is none. It's a different game today and nobody with his stature would crack a lineup with Gretzky's talent.

look at how Gretzky's legs are skinny in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeDmp2Hz2o

Just look at this one where he falls so easily in a fight against Neal Broten, Broten barely touched him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZ...528DD7F2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41

He was a great player, i'm not taking anything from him except the fact that his reputation helped him from getting major hits. Also, it helped him extend his career after the mid 90's playing in the years of a trapping system because he was Wayne Gretzky, the guy that everyone respected. Like i said, replace him by a no name player that nobody has ever heard of with the same physique and talent Gretzky had, and he would never crack a lineup in today's NHL and specially in the years of the trap.

Such great irony that the video you use is a perfect example of Gretzky getting hit late, something that probably would've been called as a penalty in 2009.

 

[trader997]

Such great irony that the video you use is a perfect example of Gretzky getting hit late, something that probably would've been called as a penalty in 2009.

and how was that a major hit?? it was a late hit but it wasn't dirty nor hard at all. Messier barely touched him and again you see Gretzky fall.