The Great One vs Super Mario

[Taylor Hall 4]

This is for sure one of my favourite discussions because it is one of those what could have been questions. Who is the better player (not based on career achievement)

Click to read more...

 

[Granlund2Pulkkinen*]

Mario Lemieux for the win. Not only did Mario lack (during his prime-- 1985-1994) a supporting cast a la Gretzky, but his career season 69+91=160 in 60 games is incredible... ESPECIALLY because that was the season he was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lyphoma.

As one writer from Newsweek Stated:

"Notwithstanding Gretzky's abiding majesty, posterity will never forget that no athlete—not even the sainted Lou Gehrig—has ever before Lemieux been struck down by a deadly disease at the very moment when he was the best of his sport at the best he ever would be. And since: Lemieux has achieved miraculously in remission, struggling, on the side, with a back injury so grievous that it has benched him after he merely laced up a skate. That is the stuff that answers people these days when they wonder where all our sports heroes have gone."​

Mario Lemeiux was on pace for 97 Goals, 127 Assists, and 224 points after almost 2/3rds of the season.

What makes his story even better is that on his last day of chemotheraphy, Lemieux boarded a jet and played a game against the Flyers where he notched a goal and an assist... A goal and an assist on the last day of chemotherapy.

I'm sorry but if you know the behind story of Mario Lemieux... It really isn't close at all.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Peak Lemieux for me, but it is close.

Career - cut Gretzky's in two equal halfs and Lemieux's is behind both.

 

[revolverjgw]

As far as who was the technically better player, they're about equal... a prime Lemieux or a prime Gretzky are both gonna dominate you to the same degree, neither separated himself from the other in terms of sheer peak dominance. I just go with Gretzky because we had the kind of skillset, sensibility and style that enabled him to do this every night for 20 years and 1700 games with no interruptions.

Gretzky just proved more. He single-handedly carried an average team to the finals, he broke all the records, he put up more real and tangible results and collected more real hardware, he played his ass off through tons of full seasons and tons of deep playoff runs for 2 decades, he was an all-star at 18 on a mediocre team and an all-star at 37 on a terrible team and in between that was the most dominant scorer ever on the most dominant offensive team ever.

 

[lextune]

Well, even though we've done this about 500 times I say why not? lol....

I saw both of their careers, and Mario is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive talent in history.

But Wayne is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive player in history.

 

[Bill McCreary]

Well, even though we've done this about 500 times I say why not? lol....

I saw both of their careers, and Mario is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive talent in history.

But Wayne is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive player in history.

Pretty much.

I'm a Penguins fan and even I concede that Gretzky has to be considered the better player because of longevity and sheer numbers. However, no player in NHL history has had the offensive ability of Mario Lemieux. He could do things with the puck that no player before, during, or since will ever be able to do again.

 

[canucks4ever]

Greztky had no supporting cast in his first two seasons and they are much better than Mario's first two seasons.

 

[Trottier]

I saw both of their careers, and Mario is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive talent in history.

But Wayne is, without a doubt, the most gifted offensive player in history.

Well said, and I hope people can make that important distinction.

Honestly I detest this question because inevitably someone feels compelled to denigrate one or the other in defense of "his guy". Which, of course, is preposterous.

Likewise, the "he played with lousy teammates!" meme, which is insufferable to begin with, is especially inane in this case, as #99 and #66, likely more than any other forwards in the history of the game, made their linemates superior. (The best qualifier of a great player, IMO.) Trust me, neither required to "leech" off of anyone.

I'll go to my grave believing that #4 in Boston is the best hockey player I've ever seen, and that #66 was the most talented forward (and most graceful) player ever. But, likewise, it is beyond reason to even attempt to argue the productivity of Wayne Gretzky. Words do not describe his dominance, especially in the decade of the 1980s.

 

[SuicideKings15]

I've seen this debate far too often so I'll just put what I've finally settled on stamping everyone of these threads with.

Better career: Gretzky, and it's not really even close.

Better player: Lemieux, it's pretty close.

One of the best stories in hockey: Mario Lemieux.

 

[BostonAJ]

I have never seen a player that could singlehandedly improve his linemates as well as Mario. He turned Rob Brown into a 50 goal scorer. You could've put Hal Gill on his wing and he'd have scored 30 goals. Mario was the best one man show I've ever seen.

Gretzky's game was different. He never seemed to dominate. He was just always perfect. I never did understand how he did what he did. It was weird to watch.

Two very different styles of play.

 

[Sky04]

I have never seen a player that could singlehandedly improve his linemates as well as Mario. He turned Rob Brown into a 50 goal scorer. You could've put Hal Gill on his wing and he'd have scored 30 goals. Mario was the best one man show I've ever seen.

Gretzky's game was different. He never seemed to dominate. He was just always perfect. I never did understand how he did what he did. It was weird to watch.

Two very different styles of play.

He never had 50 goals...

Gretzky also turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer..

 

[member 51464]

He never had 50 goals...

Gretzky also turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer..

Rob Brown: 49 goal scorer.

 

[Big Phil]

I have never seen a player that could singlehandedly improve his linemates as well as Mario. He turned Rob Brown into a 50 goal scorer. You could've put Hal Gill on his wing and he'd have scored 30 goals. Mario was the best one man show I've ever seen.

Gretzky's game was different. He never seemed to dominate. He was just always perfect. I never did understand how he did what he did. It was weird to watch.

Two very different styles of play.

True, Mario has Rob Brown and Wendell Young on his resume as guys who never did anything without him. Gretzky has Blair MacDonald.

The best most recent argument dissecting these two legends I saw was here:
http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Talk-Hockey-Wonderful-Debates/dp/1440127018/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

 

[Trottier]

Gretzky's game was different. He never seemed to dominate. He was just always perfect. I never did understand how he did what he did. It was weird to watch.

So, so true.

When I think back to #99 I'm reminded of a quote by one of my favorite philosophers, Ralph Waldo Emerson: "To be great is to be misunderstood."

 

[hitman9172]

Talent-wise, Lemieux was the better player.

Gretzky hands down had the better career.

Put a healthy Lemieux and a healthy Gretzky in the league today with similar linemates, take out any freak injuries or illnesses, let both play 82 games, IMO, Lemieux would outscore Gretzky.

The 160 pts in 60 games with Hodgkin's disease and the debilitating back spasms

 

[seventieslord]

Well, I can;t really add anything to this discussion that hasn't already been said. This should be how history remembers them.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

on pure skill, i have lemieux slightly below orr.

on his best day, lemieux > gretzky, but the smallest fraction.

in his best year, gretzky > lemieux, because of durability and by a bigger fraction.

in his best three, five, ten year stretch, gretzky > lemieux, decisively.

career, "it's not even close."

 

[ozzie]

I look at it that this way. Mario Lemieux had the raw strength, speed, size, wing span and was a better athlete then Gretzky. Their hockey sense and minds for the game were extremely close, Any advantage Gretzky had mentally/hockey sense was overcome by Lemieux over all physical package/hockey skills.

 

[vulture77]

I consider Gretzky to be slightly better player than Lemieux because to me, his playoff performances are slightly more impressive, even at the later part of his career, with similar ages for Lemieux and Gretzky, and on average teams.

Both players were otherworldly in playoffs of course.

But if player can produce more when it matters the most, to me that is the better player.

EDIT: Especially as for regular season they are too close to call for peak performance.

 

[Granlund2Pulkkinen*]

He never had 50 goals...

Gretzky also turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer..

Brown's Highest Goal Total with Lemieux: 49 goals (1988-1989)
Brown's Highest Goal Total without Lemieux: 18 goals (1990-1991)
Brown's Percentage of Goals without Lemieux (high compared to low) 36%
Lemieux increased Brown's goal production by 64%

Nicholls' Highest Goal Total with Gretzky: 70 goals (1988-1989)
Nicholls' Highest Goal total without Gretzky: 46 goals (1984-1985)
Nicholls Percentage of Goals without Gretzky (high compared to low) 65%
Gretzky increased Nicholls' goal production by 35%

That may be a little scewed but it's got some validity. Kinda weird how both career seasons came in 88-89.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Brown's Highest Goal Total with Lemieux: 49 goals (1988-1989)
Brown's Highest Goal Total without Lemieux: 18 goals (1990-1991)
Brown's Percentage of Goals without Lemieux (high compared to low) 36%
Lemieux increased Brown's goal production by 64%

Nicholls' Highest Goal Total with Gretzky: 70 goals (1988-1989)
Nicholls' Highest Goal total without Gretzky: 46 goals (1984-1985)
Nicholls Percentage of Goals without Gretzky (high compared to low) 65%
Gretzky increased Nicholls' goal production by 35%

That may be a little scewed but it's got some validity. Kinda weird how both career seasons came in 88-89.

the figures are interesting and not completely meaningless. but i don't think it demonstrates much. i mean, can we really fault gretzky for never playing on a team like the late 80s pens? it's not his fault he had nicholls to play with, instead of brown.

 

[trader997]

Mario Lemieux for the win. Not only did Mario lack (during his prime-- 1985-1994) a supporting cast a la Gretzky, but his career season 69+91=160 in 60 games is incredible... ESPECIALLY because that was the season he was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lyphoma.

As one writer from Newsweek Stated:

"Notwithstanding Gretzky's abiding majesty, posterity will never forget that no athlete—not even the sainted Lou Gehrig—has ever before Lemieux been struck down by a deadly disease at the very moment when he was the best of his sport at the best he ever would be. And since: Lemieux has achieved miraculously in remission, struggling, on the side, with a back injury so grievous that it has benched him after he merely laced up a skate. That is the stuff that answers people these days when they wonder where all our sports heroes have gone."​

Mario Lemieux was on pace for 97 Goals, 127 Assists, and 224 points after almost 2/3rds of the season.

What makes his story even better is that on his last day of chemotheraphy, Lemieux boarded a jet and played a game against the Flyers where he notched a goal and an assist... A goal and an assist on the last day of chemotherapy.

I'm sorry but if you know the behind story of Mario Lemieux... It really isn't close at all.

There's one thing i want to add to the incredible season that Mario had in 1992-93 with 160 pts in 60 games. It's the fact that it was a lot easier to score goals in 1982-83 than it was in 1992-93. Gretzky had his best years in the beginning of the 80's when the goalies had no technique at all.

This is true, when you know for a fact that the most goals scored in 1 season was achieved by a playmaker... Gretzky was hands down the best playmaker to ever play the game but was not a great goal scorer. He's played in the beginning of the 80's and was lucky to do so, because it's not normal for a player to have 4 seasons above 70 goals between 20-24 years old and not even come close afterward.


Gretzky had the greatest career but Lemieux was the best overall player in terms of skills.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

There's one thing i want to add to the incredible season that Mario had in 1992-93 with 160 pts in 60 games. It's the fact that it was a lot easier to score goals in 1982-83 than it was in 1992-93. Gretzky had his best years in the beginning of the 80's when the goalies had no technique at all.

This is true, when you know for a fact that the most goals scored in 1 season was achieved by a playmaker... Gretzky was hands down the best playmaker to ever play the game but was not a great goal scorer. He's played in the beginning of the 80's and was lucky to do so, because it's not normal for a player to have 4 seasons above 70 goals between 20-24 years old and not even come close afterward.


Gretzky had the greatest career but Lemieux was the best overall player in terms of skills.

That's not really true. The early 90s had about as many goals as the early 80s.

In 1992-93 (Lemieux 160 points in 60 games) 21 players had over 100 points, 10 had over 120 points, and 6 had over 130 points.

In 1981-82 (Gretzky 212 points in 80 games) 13 players had over 100 points, 5 had over 120 points and 4 had over 130 points.

In 1982-83 (Gretzky 196 points in 80 games) 11 players had over 100 points, 3 had over 120 points, and only 1 (Gretzky) had over 130 points.

In 1983-84, (Gretzky 205 points in 74 games) 12 players had over 100 points, 3 players had over 120 points, and only 1 player (Gretzky) had over 130 points.

In 1984-85 (Gretzky 208 points in 73 games) 16 players had over 100 points, 5 players had over 120 points, and 3 players had over 130 points.

As you can see, the stars of 1992-93 were able to score significantly more than the stars of the early 80s. Why this was the case could be debated.

My question to you is this: if Gretzky's accomplishments in the early 80s were because it was so easy to score, why was he routinely outscoring the other stars of the leauge by 70+ points?

 

[Michael Scofield]

As much as I love Le Magnifique, I have to say Gretzky was the better player. It's a pretty widespread argument that in simple terms it's Lemieux for his prime, Gretzky for career. The old 'if only' comes up with Mario so often, it really is close.

 

[trader997]

That's not really true. The early 90s had about as many goals as the early 80s.

In 1992-93 (Lemieux 160 points in 60 games) 21 players had over 100 points, 10 had over 120 points, and 6 had over 130 points.

In 1981-82 (Gretzky 212 points in 80 games) 13 players had over 100 points, 5 had over 120 points and 4 had over 130 points.

In 1982-83 (Gretzky 196 points in 80 games) 11 players had over 100 points, 3 had over 120 points, and only 1 (Gretzky) had over 130 points.

In 1983-84, (Gretzky 205 points in 74 games) 12 players had over 100 points, 3 players had over 120 points, and only 1 player (Gretzky) had over 130 points.

In 1984-85 (Gretzky 208 points in 73 games) 16 players had over 100 points, 5 players had over 120 points, and 3 players had over 130 points.

As you can see, the stars of 1992-93 were able to score significantly more than the stars of the early 80s. Why this was the case could be debated.

My question to you is this: if Gretzky's accomplishments in the early 80s were because it was so easy to score, why was he routinely outscoring the other stars of the leauge by 70+ points?

easy to answer, the 90's will go out to be the era to have the most inductees into the hall of fame...

There was much more talent in the NHL in the early 90's than in the early 80's with all the europeen coming in league in the early 90's. The talent was much more widely spread with a new generation of players more talented. Off the top of my head, here's a few; Bure, Federov, Sakic, Sundin, Selanne, Jagr, Roenick, Fleury, Lindros, Mogilny, Turgeon, Lafontaine.