The Great One vs Super Mario

[Big Phil]

and if Stevens or Rich Pilon COULD have smashed him more often, they WOULD have. Who could honestly believe that someone like Stevens would lay off at his team's expense?

Exactly. The myth continues to grow. Trottier nailed Gretzky with a hard, hard bodycheck in the 1983 Cup finals. A rare occurence because he almost never got hit in open ice. Do you think the competitive Trottier or Potvin wouldn't have run over their own mother in 1984 to win the Cup? They were trying to string together 5 in a row. Do you think Denis Potvin was afraid of anyone on the Oilers? He was afraid of NOBODY. And if he could find a way would have prevented Gretzky from stepping up in 1984.

Think about this for a second. When was the last time Crosby was hit hard in open ice? Malkin? Almost never as well. Now Crosby and Malkin were stronger than Gretzky and got their nose a lot more dirty in the corners and in front of the net. They push and shove all the time after the whistle. They leave themselves open to get cheap shotted more often. Gretzky didn't. He knew he was 170 lbs. and his gift was his vision and he was never involved in scrums. This is why he won the Lady Byng 5 times. That isn't a knock it is just his style and how he was successful, he knew when or when not to get involved.

So what is the difference? Well a player with his head up is much less likely to get hit. Gretzky always had his head up. Malkin does. Crosby does. Lemieux always did, although he was a little bit bigger of a target to get hit. Lindros on the other hand skated with his head down. This is why he was hurt all the time. Stevens nailed Lindros all the time but he never hit Lemieux. Why? His head was up, he knew when Scott Stevens was on the ice.

Watching the Pittsburgh game the other night before Crosby scored in overtime the announcer commented on how Gonchar had his head up and "wasn't even looking at the puck" as he handled it. Only once, last year with Ovechkin, do I ever remember a hard check against Gonchar in open ice. Coffey too. When did he ever get hit? Never his head was perked up all the time.

It's high time people realized that this is how great players succeed and have the tendency to avoid getting hit. Watch the game closely people.

 

[AleksandarN]

This is for sure one of my favourite discussions because it is one of those what could have been questions. Who is the better player (not based on career achievement)

Gretzky was the better the player. He proved it when it mattered most in the playoffs. That is when teams divise strategies on stopping players and offenses the most. Playoffs have been more defensive and no other top player has played better then Gretzky has in the post season.

 

[AleksandarN]

I'm sorry but if you know the behind story of Mario Lemieux... It really isn't close at all.

wow are you serious? Not even close.

 

[AleksandarN]

Best, most concise explanation I've read.

Mario was the better talent, no question. But there's a reason Gretzky has all the offensive records. Never mind career, Gretzky beat Mario (and everybody else) in every single-season offensive category. Most goals, most assists, longest point streak, fastest to 50, you name it.

Why does people underrate Gretzky's talent or skill? Doesn't his mindset and playmaking ability a talent. If you look at any player in history you will see that Gretzky was so far a head talent wise in those ability it mind blowing.

 

[AleksandarN]

sorry but this is garbage, Gretzky never got hit not because he was smart but because there was a thing called ''respect'' for the best player back then and because he was occasionally playing with Semenko. He was mister hockey and players respected him. It's so easy to play hockey when nobody touches you, anybody that played the game would tell you the exact same thing. Lemieux on the other hand had the size to defend himself and nobody on the opposite team would give him an inch on the ice...

Just to give you an example that Gretzky never got hit, Bill Mccreary, not the official, but a player with the same name played his final game against the great one because he hammered Gretzky crossing the middle of the ice. Mccreary was sent back down in the AHL the next day and no team wanted to bring him back up the NHL cuz of that hit. There was an unwritten rule that you never touch Gretzky.

If players were hitting Gretzky would he have scored as many goals and assisted as many goals as he did? hell no

Potvin says otherwise. I will take a HOF's top 5 defensmen words over yours any day of the week

 

[Topgoon]

I thought it'd be a bad thing for your team if your best player is sitting out for 5 minutes for fighting? This is probably worst for a defenseman too.

 

[lextune]

Exactly. The myth continues to grow. Trottier nailed Gretzky with a hard, hard bodycheck in the 1983 Cup finals. A rare occurence because he almost never got hit in open ice. Do you think the competitive Trottier or Potvin wouldn't have run over their own mother in 1984 to win the Cup? They were trying to string together 5 in a row. Do you think Denis Potvin was afraid of anyone on the Oilers? He was afraid of NOBODY. And if he could find a way would have prevented Gretzky from stepping up in 1984.

Think about this for a second. When was the last time Crosby was hit hard in open ice? Malkin? Almost never as well. Now Crosby and Malkin were stronger than Gretzky and got their nose a lot more dirty in the corners and in front of the net. They push and shove all the time after the whistle. They leave themselves open to get cheap shotted more often. Gretzky didn't. He knew he was 170 lbs. and his gift was his vision and he was never involved in scrums. This is why he won the Lady Byng 5 times. That isn't a knock it is just his style and how he was successful, he knew when or when not to get involved.

So what is the difference? Well a player with his head up is much less likely to get hit. Gretzky always had his head up. Malkin does. Crosby does. Lemieux always did, although he was a little bit bigger of a target to get hit. Lindros on the other hand skated with his head down. This is why he was hurt all the time. Stevens nailed Lindros all the time but he never hit Lemieux. Why? His head was up, he knew when Scott Stevens was on the ice.

Watching the Pittsburgh game the other night before Crosby scored in overtime the announcer commented on how Gonchar had his head up and "wasn't even looking at the puck" as he handled it. Only once, last year with Ovechkin, do I ever remember a hard check against Gonchar in open ice. Coffey too. When did he ever get hit? Never his head was perked up all the time.

It's high time people realized that this is how great players succeed and have the tendency to avoid getting hit. Watch the game closely people.

There you go with thoughtfulness and logic again....Don't you realize it was all a big conspiracy!!1!!one!

 

[vulture77]

I just watched a game between Islanders and Oilers.

To me, Gretzky was very unspectacular and invisible. Much more impressive were the two goals by LaFontaine and the spectacular shot, and goal, by Kurri.

Yet, while seemingly harmless, he somehow scored two goals and an assist by being in the right place at the right time.

Oilers won 5-2.

If this game is any indication, the "problem" with Gretzky is that he was not nearly as flashy as the best players are supposed to be. I would guess most star players have much more impressive highlight reels than his and thus the opinions that "Ovechkin/Bure/Forsberg/Crosby would have scored AT LEAST 100 goals should they have played in 80's".

I don't think so.

 

[overg]

Here's the way I've always compared them.

Lemieux slowed the game down. He got the puck, and it seemed like he had an eternity to do whatever he wanted to do with it. You could watch him and just see what was coming. I'm pretty sure even the opposing team knew exactly what he was going to do, it was just that he was so damned talented they couldn't stop him from doing it. No where was this more evident than his breakaway goals. How many times did he just simply hold the puck and roof it right under the crossbar at the last second? Surely enough times that every goalie in the league had to be expecting it. But he did it all the time anyway, and scored most of the time anyway. Lemieux just had so much "time" he could do pretty much anything he wanted.

Gretzky was the exact opposite. The puck would just be somewhere on the ice, maybe not even on Gretzky's stick, looking completely harmless, and next thing you know it's in the back of the net having somehow gotten there via Wayne (by way of pass or shot). When Gretzky was on the ice suddenly everything seemed to happen faster, and no one, fans or opposing players, could catch up to the action Gretzky was creating.

I think this is part of the reason so many people think Lemieux was more skilled . . . it was much easier to actually track what he was doing. It was kind of like the difference between watching something in fast forward compared to watching it in slow motion.

Or, to put it another way, watching Lemieux, you could say "he's going to create a goal like this", and a couple moments later he'd score a goal exactly like you'd predicted. Watching Wayne, you'd say "how'd he score on that play?" and have to rewind it to figure out just why the puck had ended up in the back of the net.

*sigh* And if I'd just bothered to read through the whole thread before typing this, I would have seen that Topgoon had already paraphrased one of my old posts (or someone else's post who saw things the same way I did . . . I don't presume that I'm the only person who's ever described the two this way).

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Yes, I have to correct myself in the future when saying "Mario may have been more skilled..." with physically skilled.

 

[Cawz]

sorry but this is garbage,.... There was an unwritten rule that you never touch Gretzky.

Whats funny is that you are in the History of Hockey forum telling people about garbage, yet you were either unborn or in diapers for most of Gretzky's career. Now THATS garbage.

I wonder what the story is going to be like in future years if kids like you keep propagating this myth.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

Even though I think one could make a solid case for either one of them, you just have to watch highlights of both to realize that Lemieux was much more dominant in terms of grabbing the puck, skate almost right through opposing players like a train and deke the goalie with a guy literally riding his back. I personally think his highlight goals are a lot more "unreal" and entertaining to watch.

Compare the difficulty level of their highlight goals:










But Lemieux's best (or most insane) goal ever is the number one of this top 10 at 1:33

 

[CanadaBacon]

Cant touch Gretz

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Even though I think one could make a solid case for either one of them, you just have to watch highlights of both to realize that Lemieux was much more dominant in terms of grabbing the puck, skate almost right through opposing players like a train and deke the goalie with a guy literally riding his back. I personally think his highlight goals are a lot more "unreal" and entertaining to watch.

Compare the difficulty level of their highlight goals:

So because Gretzky made it look EASIER to score goals he's the LESSER player???

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Even though I think one could make a solid case for either one of them, you just have to watch highlights of both to realize that Lemieux was much more dominant in terms of grabbing the puck, skate almost right through opposing players like a train and deke the goalie with a guy literally riding his back. I personally think his highlight goals are a lot more "unreal" and entertaining to watch.

I really hope you're not going to say Lemieux was better because he had better high lights.

 

[Topgoon]

There's a reason why a good highlight reel goal is a rare thing - because the play that got them there rarely works. For each highlight reel goal you get the same player probably tried the same thing 20 times and failed, miserably. Sure scoring a goal by beating 4 guys looks great, but its still one goal, and for each time a player attempts that, he could've been making a much more sound play.

Notice how Gretzky was completely efficient. No extra move on the stick until needed, always conserving speed until that extra step is warranted. He also seem to understand that the puck moves faster when it is passed than carried and uses it as much as possible.

 

[Derick*]

I think I'm better than both of them.

 

[member 51464]

I think I'm better than both of them.

At what?

 

[hockeyauthority]

The best most recent argument dissecting these two legends I saw was here:
http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Talk-Hockey-Wonderful-Debates/dp/1440127018/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

So true. At the end of that chapter of the book that was discussing Lemieux I think it was clear that even without Lemieux's injuries and 3 year retirement he still doesn't touch Gretzky's points record. Let alone "shatter" it like is popular belief

 

[Blades of Glory]

The greatest ones are the smartest ones. That's why Gretzky rarely got hit hard. He kept his head up. He moved his feet. He didn't admire his passes.

Respect had nothing to do with it. You think freakin Chris Chelios would have pulled off if he had a legitimate opportunity to put his shoulder, or in true Chelios fashion, his elbow, into Gretzky's head? Chris Chelios wouldn't have pulled off if his own grandmother was skating across center ice with her head down. I can guarantee you Chris Chelios wanted a shot at Gretzky more than anyone else in the league. You think he would have batted an eyelid if Marty McSorley came over to protect Gretzky? Darren McCarty once said about Chelios after he was traded to Detroit, "This is the first time I've been so close to his stick without it being broken over my head." It is obviously a hyperbole, but you get the point.

Gretzky was too smart, too shifty, and too aware of his surroundings to take a hit like that. So was Lemieux. His injuries were simply a combination of bad luck and defensemen jumping on his back because they had no other way of stopping him. But Wayne was so smart, and that's why he dominated for so long. He didn't have the physical tools Lemieux was gifted before he came into the league. Gretzky was just that much smarter than everyone else. Mario was too, when he was on the ice.

 

[shazariahl]

I've said this before, but it's probably worth repeating.

Both players are amazing, and clearly the 2 greatest offensive players of all time. But when comparing them, I have to weigh between:

Player 1, who has better career numbers (including averages for the most part), all the records, better single season records (including all the averages), a longer and better peak, and a longer and healthier career, who also managed to give 8 or so decent years when he was past his prime and playing on inferior teams, plus dominated the league for an entire decade (as judged by Art Ross and Hart trophies) and had better post seasons;

vs

Player 2 who had some seasons that were nearly as good, others that could have even been better except they were hampered by injury and illness, but didn't have the same level of success in the post season, didn't have the same length of career, and was never really able to remain healthy, even for a single season...

I have to pick the first. How can I not? Yes, adjustments for era and stuff may cloud things up a little, but the fact is, when one player performs slightly better AND is also FAR healthier and plays 500 more games... how can I not take him over someone who falls short in all those categories? The "if Lemieux didn't get cancer" arguement is interesting, but even without it he was constantly injured. Mario never played a full season past his sophmore year - he always managed to miss at least a few games, often a dozen or more.

Gretzky, on the other hand, had an 8 year prime during which he missed... 8 games. And the length of his dominance, and the margin of it is staggering. Gretzky had a 10 year period where he AVERAGED 180 pts a year! Lemieux only broke that once. Gretzky averaged over 200 pts for a six year span, a mark Lemieux came close to once but never broke. Gretzky would have won 3 scoring titles just on his assist totals alone, and we all know he would be the all time leading scorer just off his assists. He broke 2000 points, something no one else has ever done, in less than 900 games! He was just shy of his 30th birthday.

At their peaks, they are very close. But Gretzky still gets the nod. Taken over their careers though, as a complete body of work, and Gretzky destroys Lemieux by a wide margin.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Super.

And pretty easily.

The most dominant offensive talent the game has ever seen.

Only Mario could stop Mario. Because of injuries. Nobody could stop him. Period.

On the other hand, I saw defenseman like Ken Morrow and Potvin stop Gretzky and Gretzky played with little competition in the West and with stacked teammates.



Next comparison.

 

[McRpro]

Super.

And pretty easily.

The most dominant offensive talent the game has ever seen.

Only Mario could stop Mario. Because of injuries. Nobody could stop him. Period.

On the other hand, I saw defenseman like Ken Morrow and Potvin stop Gretzky and Gretzky played with little competition in the West and with stacked teammates.



Next comparison.

 

[shazariahl]

Super.

And pretty easily.

The most dominant offensive talent the game has ever seen.

Only Mario could stop Mario. Because of injuries. Nobody could stop him. Period.

On the other hand, I saw defenseman like Ken Morrow and Potvin stop Gretzky and Gretzky played with little competition in the West and with stacked teammates.



Next comparison.

Interesting analysis. I guess Mario only won 2 cups because he felt like stopping himself the rest of the time? If Gretzky was so much easier to shut down, how did he set 61 NHL records (60 of which still stand), and beat all of Lemieux numbers? But wait, he had a stacked team.

It wasn't very stacked his first season, when he had 137 pts and tied for the scoring lead. Messier had 12 goals that year, Gretzky broke 50. The Oilers were 16th out of 21 teams. Hardly stacked. Second season he broke records for assists and points in a single season. Messier had less than 25 goals. Kuri still wasn't in the league yet. Oilers were 14th out of 21 teams, and didn't secure a playoff spot until the final day of the season. Again, hardly a stacked team.

3rd season... breaks 200 points (212 to be specific), breaks his own record for points and assists, as well as getting 50 goals in 39 games and 92 on the season, to shatter basically every record there as well. Kuri plays his first year with the Oilers, getting 85 points (yes, less points than Gretzky has goals). Coffee is 2nd in team scoring with 105 points, meaning he's 107 back of Gretzky. So yes, Gretzky has more than double the points of the next best player on his team. The next year he "only" managed 196 points, before breaking 200 for 3 straight seasons. He averaged over 200 pts a year for 6 years, Mario never broke 200 even once.

Obviously though it was because he had better teammates! Gretzky must have been leeching off them, and they just carried him to 60 NHL records. /sarcasm off.

p.s. Jagr was better than anyone Gretzky ever had as a regular winger.

 

[greatgazoo]

This is kinda interesting...

From 1981 to 1987 the Oilers scored 2,486 goals and Gretzky was in on 49% of them.

From 1986-1992 the Penguins scored 1,966 goals and Lemieux was in on 39% of them.

*Both had Paul Coffey playing defense for them.