The Great Michal Kempny Debate (& other ex-Hawks) Volume 4

[Rick C137]

Not even worth biting on that one

 

[BobbyJet]

Lets not forget Tallon was forced out for a while and only came back in after GM that replaced him damaged organization tremendously

He also is limited financially by an owner who is exact opposite of Rocky and ordered numerous cuts

He is almost as bad as Stanley who destroyed a cup contender and who's last 4 years as GM are truly Chia like

What a conflicting post.

I wonder if those millenials with advanced stats sheets in hand aren't still running things and tying Tallon's hands.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

What a conflicting post.

I wonder if those millenials with advanced stats sheets in hand aren't still running things and tying Tallon's hands.

Are you anti-advanced stats? Colliton uses advanced stats as a tool that he combines with the eye test.

 

[BobbyJet]

If you knew the history of the Florida org you would know what I am referring to.

 

[AmericanDream]

Lets not forget Tallon was forced out for a while and only came back in after GM that replaced him damaged organization tremendously

He also is limited financially by an owner who is exact opposite of Rocky and ordered numerous cuts

He is almost as bad as Stanley who destroyed a cup contender and who's last 4 years as GM are truly Chia like

lol

 

[RememberTheRoar]

If you knew the history of the Florida org you would know what I am referring to.

Gotcha, I don’t so it’s over my head. Thought you were criticizing millennials using advanced stats in general.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Gotcha, I don’t so it’s over my head. Thought you were criticizing millennials using advanced stats in general.

Florida kicked Tallon upstairs, went all in on analytics for a year, moved out chunks of Tallon’s team, then ownership reversed course and put Tallon back in minus parts of the team he originally was building.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Florida kicked Tallon upstairs, went all in on analytics for a year, moved out chunks of Tallon’s team, then ownership reversed course and put Tallon back in minus parts of the team he originally was building.

^
And then mandated cutting salary

 

[Hawkaholic]

Lets not forget Tallon was forced out for a while and only came back in after GM that replaced him damaged organization tremendously

He also is limited financially by an owner who is exact opposite of Rocky and ordered numerous cuts

He is almost as bad as Stanley who destroyed a cup contender and who's last 4 years as GM are truly Chia like

What has Tallon done, exactly? There is no way you can defend his awful trades and say he is better than Bowman. His free agent signings are always terrible, his drafting is suspect even though he's been handed 2 top 3 draft picks.

Florida hasn't improved at all since he got there, out of playoffs every year outside of 2 when they lost in the first round.

 

[ClydeLee]

What has Tallon done, exactly? There is no way you can defend his awful trades and say he is better than Bowman. His free agent signings are always terrible, his drafting is suspect even though he's been handed 2 top 3 draft picks.

Florida hasn't improved at all since he got there, out of playoffs every year outside of 2 when they lost in the first round.

3 top 3 draft picks. Went bad with the Gunbransson pick.

If those other guys like that millennial of over 60 years old Tom Rowe is still influencing the decisions, it's probably recent ones like trading away Petrovic who for no good reason was protected by Tallon.

 

[AmericanDream]

^
And then mandated cutting salary

yes, because Tallon has no clue how to spend it correctly.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

What has Tallon done, exactly? There is no way you can defend his awful trades and say he is better than Bowman. His free agent signings are always terrible, his drafting is suspect even though he's been handed 2 top 3 draft picks.

Florida hasn't improved at all since he got there, out of playoffs every year outside of 2 when they lost in the first round.

Tallon gave Vegas 2/3 of its first line basically for free. I still don’t understand how you could be so scared of losing one decent player in an expansion draft that you give up two first liners.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Tallon would have re-signed Havlat instead of signing Hossa which would have been an unmitigated disaster, and would have resulted in the Hawks winning zero cups instead of three. Based on that information alone, Tallon deserved to be fired, and Bowman is considered the architect of all 3 cup teams. There are zero defensible reasons to bitch about Tallon getting fired. But please, tell me how this is Tallon's team? Keith, Seabrook, Byfuglien and Crawford were Mike Smith picks, and Kane, Toews and Hjalmarsson were Tallon picks. You could argue that Mike Smith has about as much to do with the Hawks winning their cups as Tallon does. Bowman put the final piece in place, and drafted really well over the majority of his time as the Hawks GM, something you couldn't say about Tallon, who is only responsible for Kane, Toews, and Hjalmarsson. Kruger and Bickell were his picks as well but they were secondary players in the whole thing.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Phillip Danault is apparently having himself a fantastic season. Over on the Habs board they're saying he's playing like prime Plekanec with fantastic shutdown play as well as good enough offense (he gets no PP time). This one hurts more than the Tuevo trade. I don't think i've ever made a post specifically calling out Bowman but here we go. That stretch of time from June 27, 2015 to June 16, 2016 was just awful move after awful move...

-June 27 2015: Hawks trade Antti Raanta to the Rangers for Ryan Haggerty
-June 30 2015: Hawks trade Saad, Broadhurts, and Paliotta (lol remember when we all loved him??) to the Jackets for Anisimov, Dano, Morin, Tropp, and a 4th
-July 10 2015: Hawks trade Sharp AND Johns to Dallas for Trevor Daley and Garbutt
-September 11 2015: Hawks trade Verbeauty, Nordstrom, and 2017 3rd to Carolina for Roberston, Massie, and 2017 5th
-December 14 2015: Hawks trade Daley to Penguins for Scuderi
-January 3rd 2016: Hawks trade Morin to the Leafs for Panik (very good trade)

TRADE DEADLINE

-Hawks trade Dano, 2016 1st, 2018 Conditional 3rd to the Jets for Ladd, Harrison, and Fraser
-Hawks trade Danault and 2018 2nd for Weise, Fleishcmann
-Hawks trade Scuderi to Kings for Ehrhoff

OFFSEASON

-June 16 2016: Hawks trade Bickell and Tuevo to Carolina for 2016 2nd and 2017 3rd

Granted, 2016 was a pretty weak draft and i'd be willing to accept that Bowman + Kelley knew it. It's unlikely either of Rubstov (2016 1st) or Romanov (2018 2nd) amount to much. However, trading Sharp for a roster player instead of picks was one annoyance after another. In Q's arguably first big mistake, he failed to get the most out of Daley who went on to be a big part of the Penguins two Cups. Then Daley had to be moved for a cap dump who was then moved for an even worse cap dump that ended his time here in the AHL. Then Bowman obviously tried to recapture the TDL magic from last year by giving up valuable assets in order for a playoff run. He wanted more forward depth and players that could throw their bodies around. In 19 games in the regular season, Weise and Fleischmann COMBINED for 4 goals, 2 assists, 29 hits and a -3. In the playoffs they combined for 1 goal and were total non-factors.

IIRC the Hawks were actually pretty high up in the standings around the 2016 TDL, but a lot of that was Panarin + Kane's career year carrying the team. Toews put up 58 points that year and was playing roughly $3 million below his cap hit, Seabrook was starting his steep decline (despite putting up 48 points), and the Hawks pretty much had 2.5 reliable defenseman that year and in the playoffs with Keith, Hjlamarsson, and an ok Seabrook. They were clearly not a Cup caliber team and yet they still made deadline moves that were designed to give them that last little push into an elite roster. The "depth" that they traded for was a disaster on the score sheet (Weise, Fleishcmann, and Ladd combined for 2 goals and 1 assist in the playoffs) and by the eye test as well.

I'll give Bowman a pass on losing Tuevo in the Bickell trade. I don't think Bickell ever should have been given that contract but his play was no doubt ruined by his MS. It came out of nowhere and losing TT is what it is at this point. There was also the Morin for Panik trade that was very good for us. Except for those two moves though, Bowman was an awful GM from June 2015 to June 2016. That offseason sucked for us as Hawks fans and Phillip Danault playing so well while we have nothing to show for it is the glowing example of exactly how bad that time period was.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Tallon would have re-signed Havlat instead of signing Hossa which would have been an unmitigated disaster, and would have resulted in the Hawks winning zero cups instead of three. Based on that information alone, Tallon deserved to be fired, and Bowman is considered the architect of all 3 cup teams. There are zero defensible reasons to ***** about Tallon getting fired. But please, tell me how this is Tallon's team? Keith, Seabrook, Byfuglien and Crawford were Mike Smith picks, and Kane, Toews and Hjalmarsson were Tallon picks. You could argue that Mike Smith has about as much to do with the Hawks winning their cups as Tallon does. Bowman put the final piece in place, and drafted really well over the majority of his time as the Hawks GM, something you couldn't say about Tallon, who is only responsible for Kane, Toews, and Hjalmarsson. Kruger and Bickell were his picks as well but they were secondary players in the whole thing.

Bowman was the Assistant GM at the time of these picks, also.

 

[BK]

Phillip Danault is apparently having himself a fantastic season. Over on the Habs board they're saying he's playing like prime Plekanec with fantastic shutdown play as well as good enough offense (he gets no PP time). This one hurts more than the Tuevo trade. I don't think i've ever made a post specifically calling out Bowman but here we go. That stretch of time from June 27, 2015 to June 16, 2016 was just awful move after awful move...

-June 27 2015: Hawks trade Antti Raanta to the Rangers for Ryan Haggerty
-June 30 2015: Hawks trade Saad, Broadhurts, and Paliotta (lol remember when we all loved him??) to the Jackets for Anisimov, Dano, Morin, Tropp, and a 4th
-July 10 2015: Hawks trade Sharp AND Johns to Dallas for Trevor Daley and Garbutt
-September 11 2015: Hawks trade Verbeauty, Nordstrom, and 2017 3rd to Carolina for Roberston, Massie, and 2017 5th
-December 14 2015: Hawks trade Daley to Penguins for Scuderi
-January 3rd 2016: Hawks trade Morin to the Leafs for Panik (very good trade)

TRADE DEADLINE

-Hawks trade Dano, 2016 1st, 2018 Conditional 3rd to the Jets for Ladd, Harrison, and Fraser
-Hawks trade Danault and 2018 2nd for Weise, Fleishcmann
-Hawks trade Scuderi to Kings for Ehrhoff

OFFSEASON

-June 16 2016: Hawks trade Bickell and Tuevo to Carolina for 2016 2nd and 2017 3rd

Granted, 2016 was a pretty weak draft and i'd be willing to accept that Bowman + Kelley knew it. It's unlikely either of Rubstov (2016 1st) or Romanov (2018 2nd) amount to much. However, trading Sharp for a roster player instead of picks was one annoyance after another. In Q's arguably first big mistake, he failed to get the most out of Daley who went on to be a big part of the Penguins two Cups. Then Daley had to be moved for a cap dump who was then moved for an even worse cap dump that ended his time here in the AHL. Then Bowman obviously tried to recapture the TDL magic from last year by giving up valuable assets in order for a playoff run. He wanted more forward depth and players that could throw their bodies around. In 19 games in the regular season, Weise and Fleischmann COMBINED for 4 goals, 2 assists, 29 hits and a -3. In the playoffs they combined for 1 goal and were total non-factors.

IIRC the Hawks were actually pretty high up in the standings around the 2016 TDL, but a lot of that was Panarin + Kane's career year carrying the team. Toews put up 58 points that year and was playing roughly $3 million below his cap hit, Seabrook was starting his steep decline (despite putting up 48 points), and the Hawks pretty much had 2.5 reliable defenseman that year and in the playoffs with Keith, Hjlamarsson, and an ok Seabrook. They were clearly not a Cup caliber team and yet they still made deadline moves that were designed to give them that last little push into an elite roster. The "depth" that they traded for was a disaster on the score sheet (Weise, Fleishcmann, and Ladd combined for 2 goals and 1 assist in the playoffs) and by the eye test as well.

I'll give Bowman a pass on losing Tuevo in the Bickell trade. I don't think Bickell ever should have been given that contract but his play was no doubt ruined by his MS. It came out of nowhere and losing TT is what it is at this point. There was also the Morin for Panik trade that was very good for us. Except for those two moves though, Bowman was an awful GM from June 2015 to June 2016. That offseason sucked for us as Hawks fans and Phillip Danault playing so well while we have nothing to show for it is the glowing example of exactly how bad that time period was.

PD looks good this year as a 2C and that trade was a bad one. The Ladd trade was the right trade to make (I wanted Louis E.), remember we lost in OT of game 7 to the Blues. The 2016 team was a contender.

 

[x Tame Impala]

The 2016 team was a contender.

In the loosest sense of the word, or in a "you just have to make it into the playoffs and anything can happen" way perhaps. They MAYBE get by Dallas, but definitely don't get by San Jose. They would've lost to Tampa for sure and been absolutely demolished by Pittsburgh. Demolished. No hyperbole, probably swept. Maybe lose in 5.

They were the epitome of a one line team. No depth

 

[BK]

In the loosest sense of the word, or in a "you just have to make it into the playoffs and anything can happen" way perhaps. They MAYBE get by Dallas, but definitely don't get by San Jose. They would've lost to Tampa for sure and been absolutely demolished by Pittsburgh. Demolished. No hyperbole, probably swept. Maybe lose in 5.

They were the epitome of a one line team. No depth

Except we don't know that they would have lost to those teams.

The Hawks have historically played the Pens really well.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Except we don't know that they would have lost to those teams.

The Hawks have historically played the Pens really well.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That 2016 Penguins team was one of the better Cup winners the last 11 years and the 2016 Hawks were full of holes

 

[arsenalgooner]

Phillip Danault is apparently having himself a fantastic season. Over on the Habs board they're saying he's playing like prime Plekanec with fantastic shutdown play as well as good enough offense (he gets no PP time). This one hurts more than the Tuevo trade. I don't think i've ever made a post specifically calling out Bowman but here we go. That stretch of time from June 27, 2015 to June 16, 2016 was just awful move after awful move...

-June 27 2015: Hawks trade Antti Raanta to the Rangers for Ryan Haggerty
-June 30 2015: Hawks trade Saad, Broadhurts, and Paliotta (lol remember when we all loved him??) to the Jackets for Anisimov, Dano, Morin, Tropp, and a 4th
-July 10 2015: Hawks trade Sharp AND Johns to Dallas for Trevor Daley and Garbutt
-September 11 2015: Hawks trade Verbeauty, Nordstrom, and 2017 3rd to Carolina for Roberston, Massie, and 2017 5th
-December 14 2015: Hawks trade Daley to Penguins for Scuderi
-January 3rd 2016: Hawks trade Morin to the Leafs for Panik (very good trade)

TRADE DEADLINE

-Hawks trade Dano, 2016 1st, 2018 Conditional 3rd to the Jets for Ladd, Harrison, and Fraser
-Hawks trade Danault and 2018 2nd for Weise, Fleishcmann
-Hawks trade Scuderi to Kings for Ehrhoff

OFFSEASON

-June 16 2016: Hawks trade Bickell and Tuevo to Carolina for 2016 2nd and 2017 3rd

Granted, 2016 was a pretty weak draft and i'd be willing to accept that Bowman + Kelley knew it. It's unlikely either of Rubstov (2016 1st) or Romanov (2018 2nd) amount to much. However, trading Sharp for a roster player instead of picks was one annoyance after another. In Q's arguably first big mistake, he failed to get the most out of Daley who went on to be a big part of the Penguins two Cups. Then Daley had to be moved for a cap dump who was then moved for an even worse cap dump that ended his time here in the AHL. Then Bowman obviously tried to recapture the TDL magic from last year by giving up valuable assets in order for a playoff run. He wanted more forward depth and players that could throw their bodies around. In 19 games in the regular season, Weise and Fleischmann COMBINED for 4 goals, 2 assists, 29 hits and a -3. In the playoffs they combined for 1 goal and were total non-factors.

IIRC the Hawks were actually pretty high up in the standings around the 2016 TDL, but a lot of that was Panarin + Kane's career year carrying the team. Toews put up 58 points that year and was playing roughly $3 million below his cap hit, Seabrook was starting his steep decline (despite putting up 48 points), and the Hawks pretty much had 2.5 reliable defenseman that year and in the playoffs with Keith, Hjlamarsson, and an ok Seabrook. They were clearly not a Cup caliber team and yet they still made deadline moves that were designed to give them that last little push into an elite roster. The "depth" that they traded for was a disaster on the score sheet (Weise, Fleishcmann, and Ladd combined for 2 goals and 1 assist in the playoffs) and by the eye test as well.

I'll give Bowman a pass on losing Tuevo in the Bickell trade. I don't think Bickell ever should have been given that contract but his play was no doubt ruined by his MS. It came out of nowhere and losing TT is what it is at this point. There was also the Morin for Panik trade that was very good for us. Except for those two moves though, Bowman was an awful GM from June 2015 to June 2016. That offseason sucked for us as Hawks fans and Phillip Danault playing so well while we have nothing to show for it is the glowing example of exactly how bad that time period was.

You're obviously very passionate about this in a way that I am not, so take this opinion through that lens. Which, if any, of the moves you site resulted in the Hawks being where they are now, or prevented them from contending for the Stanley Cup? The ones that stand out to me are the Danault and the Saad trade (only because of how well he was playing at the time- he's clearly not the same dude to me now). Lots of people think Johns is the one that got away, but he's a minus player overall (and yeah, I know that's not a be all end all stat), and has missed this whole year with a concussion.

If zero of those moves were made, I don't think the Hawks are in much more of a better spot than they are now, if for no other reason that a lot of the guys they let go weren't that good to begin with or wouldn't be any good now. If TT kept developing, that would help, assuming all the moves Bowman made before and after that happened, which who knows if they make some of them.

Raanta isn't leading anyone to a cup, Versteeg had run his course, Nordstrom is terrible. I don't know, Danault wasn't going to help the Hawks win a cup in 2016, and whatever was fundamentally wrong with that team they were the #1 seed. I guess I just see these moves as mostly ones to either help navigate the salary cap issue the Hawks were faced with or try to get a little better to win a 4th cup.

 

[JaegerDice]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That 2016 Penguins team was one of the better Cup winners the last 11 years and the 2016 Hawks were full of holes

Yeah, the 2016 Penguins are up there with the 2008 Red Wings and 2013 Blackhawks as far as cap era teams.

 

[JaegerDice]

I'm happy for Danault, that he's breaking out and having a career year. That said, Danault this year is not the same guy he was last year or the year before. If the Danault of today is the one the Blackhawks had back then, he probably doesn't get traded... but he wasn't that guy, and it took him 3 seasons to perform like that guy and get deployed like that guy. Which isn't his fault, but for a team that was still in a win-now mindset, it didn't fit the timeline. It's been a gradual build, and no small part of his development came as a result of playing top 6 minutes on a team, which he was never going to get here in those same years.

Now, SHOULD the Blackhawks have been in a win-now mode in 2016? Absolutely not. That was a one line team and a great goaltender. But the same fanbase that shits on Bowman for making that move (fandom as a whole, not just on this forum) would have shit on Bowman just as hard for 'wasting' a career year out of Kane and Crawford, and not loading up at the deadline to make a push.

I personally prefer my GMs to give middle fingers to the masses and do what's best for the team, outcry be damned, but I somehow doubt that's ever going to happen in a Mcdonough world.

Would the Blackhawks have been better off today if they had just ****ing took a step back, accepted they were going to be a little worse for a few years while they made some adjustments and let some young players develop (assuming said young players actually got a consistent place/role in the lineup)? Absolutely.

 

[BobbyJet]

Some of us saw how obvious it was that Danault would only get better and it was plain dumb to let him go. One of Stan's worth trades ever. I still cringe to think we kept Kruger and gave up on Danault so quickly.

 

[JaegerDice]

Some of us saw how obvious it was that Danault would only get better and it was plain dumb to let him go. One of Stan's worth trades ever. I still cringe to think we kept Kruger and gave up on Danault so quickly.

I think most people agreed Danault would be a useful player one day. The timeline didn't line up. If they were trying to win-now in 2016, Danault wasn't going to help them win-now. He was going to help them win in 2019, which they were willing to sell on to try and win in 2016.

If the team philosophy as a whole was different at that time, and they were willing to just sit back and wait, then we probably still have Danault, Teuvo, and don't have Seabrook on the books.

But again, people would have bitched about 'wasting' Kane's Hart performance and Crawford's performance, and how if they were that hot heading into the playoffs surely they would win, yada yada

 

[Rolo]

It doesn't help Weise and Fleischmann (who were decent in MTL) played like dogsh** for us.

Weise was looking like a really good 3rd liner, kinda like Shaw.. but his career literally went downhill after that.